Dino 246
 

Thanks Ian, it was nice to meet you again.
All the Dino moulds and jigs are now safely over in France.
Thanks
Mark

chassis
 

Hi All

Sun out, wife out, tinkering time!
I've been out with the measuring stick again. I've took a point from the centre of the wheel arch on the cascu 246 and used some redundant gallows brackets after checking they were square. I've used my level to ensure they where upright and used packers were needed. I've measured across both the front and rear of the 246 shell. I've done the same with the deon shell but only at the front as I can't get to the back just yet without moving a gearbox,spare engine, engine crane and tig welder!!
Very surprised here as the are identical, both are 64 3/4 inches. If the back is the same then I think I'll backward engineer the deon suspension set.

ian

chassis
 

Hi Mark

Yes nice to catch up. Thanks for everything. Wish you well.

ian

They should be the same Ian, as the 206 and 246 are the same width, it is one of the few measurements which are the same. I should think the rear will be the same as well, although it is interesting as the track is supposedly 2" wider both front and rear on the 206. This could be due to the wheel offset as the 246 tyres are wider. I wouldn't have thought the wishbones are different as the 246 has the same basic setup as the 308, unless the chassis is quite different. I have never had anything to do with the 206 other than the engines. It is amazing how different the 206 and 246 are as most people just see a Dino.

Hi, I just measured the front 246 clip I have from peak of the wheel arch across to the opposite peak - it was 1640mm (approx 64.6") - as near as dammit to your measurement.

chassis
 

Hi all

After your measurement Ross and cascu's saying the 206 and 246 were the same curiosity got the better of me. I just had to drag the stuff out of the way and measure the deon at the rear. The 246 cascu shell came out at 64 1/4 inch and the deon is exactly the same-who would have thought!!!
So to the chassis. I want to upgrade the uprights and braking but I can used the original deon set up points as a start.

ian

redesign of chassis and suspension
 

It is quite a task to redesign suspension - I'm envious of your skills! I wouldn't trust myself to get suspension right so I'd probably start with a Mazda MX5 (Miata for our American friends). Its front could fit perfectly and its rear would probably need a new top arm, otherwise it would be a good fit. My next step would be to post that plan on the Locost suspension page and get feedback. There are lots of experts there who enjoy offering advice. OZDino on this site had some good basic techniques to use too.

As to Fibreglass's point that the tracks of 206 (and maybe therefore Deon) and 246 are 'a couple of inches wider' - it is true that the 206 was originally listed in a couple of places as 1400 at the rear and the 246 was 1430 at the rear. Tyre width makes no difference to track because track is measured from wheel centre to wheel centre. Wheel offset makes a difference to track.

an early 206 blueprint for chassis
Attachment 6024

I think the MX-5 front would be good. The rear may require some stiffer springs though.

If I did use an MX5 rear suspension setup then, yes the extra weight in the rear would definitely be an issue. Stiffer springs would be the first step and I wonder if geometry would need to be tweaked too?

Springs & shocks and see where it goes. Really can't answer better than that.

Hi all

As the main dino 246 shell is near on identical I intend to use my deon chassis as a starting point. I'm going to copy the front suspension pick up points from the deon as I'm going to be using billet hubs based around the fiat 124 uprights used in early JHC cars and I believe lada on later deon cars.
All the extra wheelbase difference seems to be in the area behind the back edge of the door and the rear wheels. I'm going to use the deon rear suspension points again and use a billet hub at the rear. I don't think lengthening the wheel base by 80 mm with effect the cars handling in any way. I may post my ideas on the locost suspension forum, as I think this might be a good idea.Do I just type locost suspension?

ian

locos forum - UK & USA
 

Hi, these forae (is that the plural??) are based around versions of the Lotus 7 but plenty of people diverge and talk about mid engined self-made and designed cars. Words like "middy" or "BEC" (bike engined cars) are useful searches on the sites.

here's one:
https://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/vie...php?tid=204296

Attachment 6030

and the mid engine section:
https://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/26/

one contributor sells a book on the subject:
http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilins...-21330662.html

and the USA Locos site mid engine section:
https://www.locostusa.com/forums/vie...255550dc21cfd9

chassis
 

Hi all

while searching my computer I've found this-a picture of my deon chassis built up to a rolling chassis.. Basically I'm going to copy design this but increase the size of the floor pan chassis rails from 40mm x 20mm to 80mm x 40mm and remove the 1mm tin to make the cills lower.I'm going to remove the centre backbone 25mm x 25mm tube and 1mm tin and replace with 2 more 80mm x 40mm rails. The engine baulk head is too far back on the deon so I'll move this forward and also use this area to increase the wheel base. Sort of like a dino/deon mash up!!

ian

chassis
 

Hi all

I'm not sure about the wind screen. I have both 246 chrome front and rear screen trims, the rear does seem to fit the 206 as well but the front one doesn't fit the 206-it's wider. And I know several jhc and deon builders suffered cracked screens when fitting. One guy in particular who broke 2 remarked to me that the window fitter said the screen seem oversize.:icon_confused:
The screen surround is stored at my mums so I'll dig it out and try on cascus 246 and see how it fits. May account for the difference in the door skin.

chassis
 

Hi all.

I think you guys may be right in all the extra wheel base length is in the engine bay. I know the original 206 mould was altered to fit the lotus europa chassis and it would appear to me the whole rear of the car was shortened by approx 85mm. I've used a laser and checked the deon wheel base 2255mm (dino 246 2340mm). Some photos of wheel base measurements attached.
I've measure every part of the deon chassis I have and created a wooden mock up which I've had under the cascu shell. Front wheel position and floor pan at the front of the 246 is spot on but it seems deon/jhc cut the chassis rails down and moved the engine cradle forward.
I've cut my wooden mock up in half and I'm going to add in 85 mm and try the cascu shell on again.

ian

chassis
 

Hi all

After a few weeks of proper work I've had a day off on the dino. Thought I'd look in to where the 85mm needs to go. While I was at cascu's workshop I put my tape measure over various parts of his 246 jig.Comparing them to the deon chassis is another eye opener.
The center floor pan is the same width on both. The outer chassis rails are longer on the cascu 246 but the 246 bulkhead starts further in and at approx 20 degree angle leaning back. The top of the bulkhead on both is the same!
As both the 206 and 246 engine lids are the same I've taken the measure in relation to the wheel arch from that point. The rear chassis rails on the deon are in the right place as regards the boot lid hinge points so this must stay the same resulting in the engine needing moving backwards 85mm in the engine bay. It's going to be tight and I may have to redesign the rear bottom wishbones. Top wishbones are ok as is top mount for coil over. Slowly getting there!
On another point the deon's rear wheel is not central to the wheel arch. It's approx 13mm closer to the front of the arch:doh:

246 Chassis drawing
 

Hi Ian, good progress on your build! Here's a picture of a 246 Chassis blueprint for reference. Interesting that your rear wheel is not centred in the wheel arch - maybe it is something Deon did to accomodate the Ford V6?? Other pictures of Deon wheel arches I've seen seem to have it pushed in the other direction.
Attachment 6109

Ross, that is not actually correct, I am wondering if that is an early blueprint or incomplete but it is not the chassis that was used on the original cars.

Actually just noticed the date, it was probably a prototype developed from the 206.

Hey Mark, what are the differences that the production 246 chassis has from this march '69 blueprint I found on the net?
Ross

The very front and very rear look pretty close but all of the centre section from the front to rear bulkheads is quite different. Both bulkheads are also different. Have a look at my facebook page https://www.facebook.com/pg/classic....59117777469276.

Ignore the fact that mine is RHD and the blueprints are for a LHD but you will see they are quite different. My jigs were taken off a completely stripped original 246 GT along with a 246 GTS for the additional parts needed for the GTS chassis.
Please have a look at the attached picture from when the jigs were being made.

Your posts about wheelbase and the differences between 246 (CASCU) and 206 and 206 (Deon/DGT) have got me thinking. Ian measured his Deon at 2255mm and a Dino 206 wheelbase is 2280mm, a Lotus Europa is 2311 and a Dino 246 is 2340.

I'm trying to draw up a body shell for a 246 but cannot find accurate blueprints anywhere. Most seem to be just 206 bodies with new labels! Sometimes bolt on wheels are drawn but the shell is still sitting on a 206 wheelbase. Maybe Ferrari got lazy!
Anyway in order to find out where the body changes were made between 206 and 246 I've been overlaying photos and going by the supposition that the centre of the car won't be foreshortened by the curvature of the camera's lens. It is amazing how much the extremities get foreshortened. Any way - my guess is that the 246 remains as near as dammit identical to the 206 all the way back to the rear of the doors. Thereafter, it looks like there is added length in the rear quarter panel between door and wheel arch and probably in the wheel arch to the rear of the car too, although that is harder to judge from photos.

Next time you guys have your tape measures out I'd be really grateful if you could measure (at the crease line) rear of door to wheel arch and rear of wheel arch to rear corner of the car.

Heres a blue 206 superimposed over a red 246
cheers
Ross
Attachment 6201

What does it matter? If truth be known possibly every dino has some differences, with some minor, some major?. If you are building a replica (look-alike) it will never be the real thing, and if nobody notices the wheelbase 'inaccuracy' if there even is one, what does it matter? Build your car with the bits you have, to your budget, or whatever criteria you set - as long as you're happy with it and nobody else is harmed, then that's good :bounce:

chassis for a dino
 

Hi All

Yes Ross you are right. The longer wheelbase of the dino246 compared to the deon206 is added behind the door to rear wheel arch. The actual length is added at the back of the car. I've attached some recent photo's to show. The deon206 engine lid is identical to the dino 246.

chassis for a dino
 

extra!
missed these off! some other differences in the shell swage line being one.

ian

Thanks Ian - thats very useful to me as I try to draw up a 246 body.

chassis for a dino
 

hi Ross

A few more for you

ian

chassis for a dino
 

Hi Ross

Here's some more photo's plus one of an original that was on ebay recently for £140 thousand!!!

Ian

Some info from cascu for you Dino guys

We have had quite a few enquiries regarding pricing of our Dino 246 parts so here is a price list of most of the parts we make.

Dino 246 GT coupe body with bonnet, boot, engine lid and pair of outer door skins £3500

Dino 246 GTS body with bonnet, boot, engine lid, pair of outer door skins and double skinned targa roof panel £3800.

Door inner skins £300 the pair

Door top trims £100 pair
A post trims £50 pair
B post trims £50 pair
Dashboard with pod £250
Ignition key panel £40
Handbrake console £40
Gear lever console (non air con) £60
Gear lever console (air con) £70
Rear bulkhead £120
Spare wheel well £140
Rear wheel arch liner front left £75
Rear wheel arch liner rear left £75
Rear wheel arch liner front right £75
Rear wheel arch liner rear right £75
Front wheel arch liner rear left £50
Front wheel arch liner rear right £50
Boot floor lower section £100
Boot floor top section £100
Boot floor corner pockets £80 pair
Front bulkhead RHD £200
Floor panel RHD £200

LHD panels are also available.

Chassis RHD GT coupe £4000
Chassis RHD GTS £5000

Dino 246 GT coupe RHD body and chassis package including all coupe parts listed above. This comes with the body fitted to the chassis with doors, bonnet, boot and engine lid all hinged to the shell. £12000

Dino 246 GTS RHD body and chassis package including all GTS parts listed above. This comes with the body fitted to the chassis with doors, bonnet, boot and engine lid all hinged to the shell. This also includes the targa roof assembled and ready to fit but will need all rubber seals. £14000

We are only doing a maximum of 10 body shells without chassis, then we will be back to the packages only.

If you have any questions please message us.

chassis for a dino
 

Hi all

Another shot of interest for all. I overlaid the cascu panels on the deon and found engine lid was spot on. Rear boot was some 3 inches or for those in metric 76 mm longer. However the front bonnet was some 18 mm, sorry 3 quarters of an inch, shorter!! A lot has been said about the droopy nose on the JHC /Deon so was the bonnet lengthened to fit or was the 206 slightly lower at the front??:playball:

Ian

Hi all;
Interesting things lately on the forum! Congratulations to thecarbuilder for his new purchase and his courage in trying to build his dream car!, well done and keep up with it.

Just to add more info on this blueprint: this is actually the first chassis developed by Ferrari used in the 206 GT and the first series dino 246GT (L-series). Pretty sure of this.
By the refererence on the top left, I´d say it is an original blueprint.

cheers!

I meant this blueprint:
http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/foru...9&d=1558233609

Hey Ian, just re-reading your post from May. I hope you've made good progress with your CASCU /Deon project - though the weather may be closing in for you (its getting pretty hot here in NZ). Its probably not very relevant to your project but the comments you made back then talked about shortening the wheelbase of a 246 to suit the Deon whereas the Deon (or JH Classics DGT as it was originally) was taken from a 206 not a 246. Therefore all Deons are based on a lengthened 206 wheelbase to suit the original Lotus Europa. Now that my long summer holiday is nigh I might dust off my paper planning for a Dino replica project.
Ross

chassis for a dino
 

Hi All

Not much doing!! Thought I'd update you all on my build. After much measuring and several wooden mock ups I've given up and decided to use one of marks dino chassis. My idea was to get a standard dino chassis and alter it to fit new /bespoke rear suspension while keeping the front as is. But then mark contacted me with some superb news.
For all those that follow the page Mark is working with a french guy who is updating the original chassis to take more modern/bespoke running gear but sticking to the original geometry. He is also working on producing some of the more hard to find pieces. The chassis redesign will use all the original pick up points for everything dino but should allow the fitting of nearly all V6 engine/gearboxes you can think of!! The first chassis should be started soon but the new cad drawings look great.

ian

Sounds like a big jump forward
Good luck

Thanks for the post Ian.

The new chassis build is progressing well and we will sort some pictures out soon.
We have learnt a lot about the original Dino chassis through this process and have therefore found out that the chassis blueprint that was posted above is from a very early 246 and is very different to the later chassis. Very few of the measurements are the same and this caused some confusion when originally doing the drawings. However this is all sorted out now.

We are now starting to get some parts reproduced so with a little more time will be able to supply a very comprehensive kit.

Here is a little preview of the new chassis design for anyone who has not already seen it.
The front suspension will remain the same as the original Dino but with our own wishbones and uprights. The rear has been changed to allow more space for alternative engine/transmission fitment. The suspension has been updated to allow this but the basis geometry remains the same.

More updates to come.