miglia speedster
 

This is my new plug ready to mould on monday, all the hard work has been done, which will allow you to fit this kit together in a couple of weeks. watch this space.

http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/...ps19a267ca.jpg

WOW!
What a fantastic finish! Looks like your doors fit as well. And a bonnet. Nice one Mike:biggrin:
Good name too. A+

Thanks mate, it all works well as ive spent many hours making fit , doors and bonnet have 5mm gapping ,and door hinges work straight away too , im offering this kit from this week .

http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/...psc8dccf3e.jpg

Body just put on top of chassis , needs lowering , but will look great in all colours and trim

So Mick, If I see this right, you are about to make duplicate moulds of the old Sammio model to which I have rights now and have only done as much as one of our own builders could have done. Nice finish and all but if I see this advertised ANYWHERE, you will have the solicitors knocking at your door and all Kit Car press warned to steer clear of such an obvious knock off....

Shame on you.

Andy , sorry to disappoint you, but this is way off your sammio kit and definitely not a knock off, as its a longer front , rear end is my own design , a new shape bonnet not flip front , my own grill design and doors my own design .Also the hump is moulded from a porsche 550 . All fits and great finished kit too. I think your find that i had a big influence of the sammio as i designed kit with gary. Way more overall difference than the sammio. So please hold back on the threats .

Hi Mike,
Are you saying that this new car is not the one published in this thread:
http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/foru...ead.php?t=3659
Where it says quite plainly that it is a build based on a Cordite (Now Navigator)? If so, could my curiosity be satisfied by seeing the two side by side?

Hello...I wondered when this was going to raise its head....

Firstly , just to get something straight from the offset ...the new Miglia is nothing to do with me. I have no involvement with it at all , no influence , no financial backing , no work on the project , nothing. I haven't even seen the finished buck as its shown here ... I rarely visit my old workshop nowadays as I am kept busy in my own little world.

I can see the argument from both sides.

If I was Andy , having just bought a going concern , concept , patterns , jigs etc. and planning to raise the products profile this year with exciting new ideas etc..I would also be pretty bloody miffed. I spent my time as custodian of the Sammio concept worrying that someone would do just this to me...I have had it happen to me before after a big investment of time and money into a previous project and it wasn't very nice...

I was uncomfortable about the Tribute A352 when it was born as I felt that was 'a bit close' to my original concept , there is also a guy in Reading , Oliver , who has created an AC Ace body to go on a Vitesse chassis , a guy who has owned 2 Sammio's , so obvious where his inspiration came from as well...

The problem is , I think , that as in the original glory days of the Special bodied chassis , the 50's and 60's , imitators and look a likes will spring up all over the place if enterprising people see potential in a product....I looked back at that time period , took my knowledge of Triumph chassis fitting old Ford Populars and created a modern day solution to building those cars of old...so the Sammio wasn't a new idea , it was a twist on an old idea...

Of course , you can patent , copyright etc to avoid this , but its expensive and difficult to police as I believe you only need to change something like 10% of a design to not be breaching that....there is an argument that the concept can be a breach if its deemed to be similar , but I dont know how that works....

As far as the Miglia is concerned , Mike is being a bit naughty , I think he knows he was never going to be releasing this without some flack , but in his defence , he has changed a lot of the body....it still clearly displays its origins ( as did the original Sammio versus Nickri comparible ) , it also features the definitive 50's Special features , ie. headrest , fish mouth grille , hipped rear wings etc. that many many cars of that era wore....but he has completely changed the bonnet area , one piece body , seperate bonnet , re-contoured cowl into dash area , re-shaped doors , re-shaped rear wings and rear valance , much longer nose and re-shaped grille opening etc.

So basically , I see Andy's stand on this , If I was him I would be unhappy too.....but I can see how Mike feels that he has introduced a clearly influenced by , but new body option to the market place...

Not wanting to get caught up in a battle of words , but I would be interested to hear Andy's stand on his idea to re-skin a Spitfire with a Ribble body leaving the cut bodyshell largely in place ? I only ask because this concept was kind of concieved by Tribute with their A352 , who borrowed the idea from Banham with his 550/skoda builds....Not a flippant or antagonistic comment , just wondering where the line is drawn on 'borrowed concept'...

Well, I love it and I have a kit on order!

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and I am sure that there will be more Sammio look-a-likes out there.

It will come down to consumer choice. Who offers the best quality kit? The best customer service?


The Miglia Speedster kit is a great quality kit, and looks great with its longer fixed front.

Good on you Mike, and I am sure that others will see the difference and make their own minds up.

Looks beautifully made, well done Mike.

Many thanks gary

Et tu, Mike?

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/foru...ead.php?t=3486

Mike did you apply the red banding on the tyres or is that standard with that brand, a real neat finish by the way best of luck despite the aggro
Pops

This is a very emotive subject which has polarised opinion into two camps: is Mike right to put this car into production or not?

I have a great deal of respect for Mike - he is undoubtedly a skilled and capable old-school craftsman who produces exceptionally well finished work. You just have to look at his Sammio V8 special above to see that.

I have no issue with Mike starting a business competing with the Ribble product either - nobody owns the fifties 'Special' concept of rebodying a worn out saloon into a racy sports car after all.

If I'd bought the Sammio company from Gary, however, I'd have included a clause prohibiting the previous owner and former employees from setting up in direct competition for a period of five years. I fear Andy P may be too much of a Gentleman to have thought of this though.

The only thing that makes me feel very uncomfortable about this business is the lack of differentiation between the original Sammio product and Mike's 'new' car, which, from his own build thread is a modified Sammio Cordite.

I'm sure Mike is more than capable of creating something genuinely unique with the rebody concept using the small chassis Triumph as a donor - Tribute Automotive demonstrated this very effectively with their A352, which is different enough from the look of the Sammio to clearly be another design. If inspiration is needed there are plenty of ideas on the 'net - even on this forum if you look.

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/foru...ead.php?t=3080

I think you'd have a real winner on your hands if you put one of those into production.

So, that's it from me. Although what Mike is planning to do may well be legal, I don't think it's very ethical.

This should also serve as a wake-up call to Andy P, though: If you're going to compete in this cut-throat business you need to get your product fully sorted, your production organised and your kits into customers' garages pretty darn sharpish.

Thanks T. For clarification, there are clauses in the sale of the company. As Gary was sole owner and subcontracted Mike, he wasn't deemed an 'Employee' but worked to Gary's requirements. He may have had an artistic hand in the design but ultimately the IPR belonged to Gary. The clauses in the contract of sale say:

MR. GARY JANES ( GJ ) has ceased to have control of *******(Removed for legal reasons but not affecting the meaning) products relating to the SAMMIO SPYDER ( SS ) or SAMMIO CORDITE ( SC ).

No new orders will be received by GJ for SS or SC related items.
Control of the website , advertising , promotion etc has also passed to AP.

GJ may continue to trade under the SAMMIO banner but not with contradiction to the agreement above.

Any Sammio product not relating to the SS or SC line will continue to be the property of GJ , namely the G46 Concept. (Obviously this has now been taken on by Gaz, completing the old Sammio 'Set')

Firstly let me state that I have no part in this, Im not taking either side and have nothing to gain nor lose from this 'new' product however saying that its way off the sammio kit is a joke. It took a Cordite body to make your kit, the back end of which you have changed in no way. It is in actual fact a long nose Cordite with a large scoop as stated in your own build thread which is in what part of this forum? Oh thats right, its in the sammio builds section of this forum.

You seem to be confusing the fact that you designed the original Cordite with owning the rights to the design. It is far from being the same thing and as Andy owns the rights to it he would have a very strong legal case should you put the car into production. It doesnt matter that you designed the doors, rear end or any other part of the original car, you designed it for somebody else (Sammio) and so have no ownership of those designs.

Just a word of warning, if Andy does decide to seek legal action, your employment under Gary would probably be scrutinised. Reading the build thread it sounds as though some of the parts used may have been taken as part payment. You would be well advised to make sure that everything was above board and all earnings declared and all tax paid. This may sound like a threat from me however that is not my intension, far from it, I have just seen in the past how these things can very quickly get out of hand.

My advice would be to kill the project now (you are more than capable of creating something new for yourself) or find a comprimise with Andy that would give you use of what is his intellectual property before anything turns nasty.

Nickri Spyder
 

http://www.nsra.org.uk/newforum/arch...p?t-17992.html
http://www.oldtimer.400.pl/NICKRI/Nickri_spyder.jpg

Nickris were manufactured in Essex by Clifford Nicholson and Chris Krimmel between 1958 and 1963.
About 450 cars were made, with five different models, designed to fit Fords from that period.

There is a subtle difference. Nickris were no longer being made and were not available for sale when GJ moddified the kit to become a Sammio. Sammio (now Ribble) is still a very active company and there is the problem.

With Andy's new 3500sq ft workshop, website, freshly re-tooled moulds and drawings, and a new range of freshly named and marketed cars on the way, how can a one man band at the other end of the country, from a small workshop be any real threat to world domination?

Hi pops , yes the red bands look great and look good against the green . they were done by an 85 year old man, that has a machine that grinds the face of the tyre and then he spins the wheel with the machine whilst applying the colour. He also does white wall too. Nice man £40 a wheel :icon_smile:

Personally I think there is a significant difference in both the Ribble and the Miglia.

Having built the original Sammio, and seen (and ordered) a Miglia speedster, there are similarities - it is curvaceous, got a hump, and you can sit in it to drive.

However, the difference is immediate. Long, fixed bonnet with vents, back end panels flow into clean lines with a different shaped hump, different shaped cockpit.

Another key motivator for me is the fact that this is a superbly finished kit, made by an expert in fibreglass and so I have a lot more confident that the parts will fit and I won't have to have the expense or time in finishing it.

I think that boths ends of the spectrum are being offered to the wily consumer that wants a 1950's spoorts car replica - if you want a cheap and cheerful kit to fettle and spend time cutting your own doors in, fixing your own hump(s) or making your own frame, and you like the look of the old Sammio models, then you have the Ribble. If, like me, you want to be able to have a differently styled kit which requires less time to build and less fettling, because driving it is what it is about, then get a Miglia.

I think the first 30 miglia kits are VAT free as well, so get in quick! :target:

Seanick, Im not sure if that response is supposed to be serious or not, but I will answer anyway.

Do you beleive that Bentley saw Tribute Automotive as a threat? I doubt it but they still had a problem with his Bentley look-a-like and that didnt turn out too well.

I should note that I used Tribute Automotive as an example as I know that you are aware of their products and in no way would I wish to drag them into this.

You seem to either have a grudge against Andy or are a friend of Mike. Im sure some of those that are commenting positivly on the Speedster may have a problem should somebody buy one of the kits, shorten the bonnet and remould it and give it a new name (maybe something like a Ribble Navigator?).

Gary, glad I'm not alone, I was beginning to think I was a lonely voice in the crowd!

Hi Gary,
No, I have met neither Andy or Mike, nor spoken to either.

You are totally right though, there is nothing to stop anyone copying an old design. If another Nickri appeared for sale, anyone could take it, modify it as they like, mould it and offer it for sale. Similar concept cars look similar. Its the same with boats. They are sharp one end, blunt on the other, and all look similar, but just a little bit different.

This point was made by lancelot link.

One has to wonder how large the market is for these cars anyway. With 127 Sammios out there I would have thought the market would be saturated by now. How they were originally sold for the price they were I dont know. I did do some costings and I could produce them in my workshop, but with my large overheads there would be no profit at all.

On the plus side though, this high profile forum discussion will probably boost sales for both companies. Look at retail parks, where Currys, PC word and Dixons stand side by side, or where petrol stations are next to each other. Seems crazy, but it works.

I moved my business a couple of years ago to another marina, moving into workshops right alongside another buisiness offering the same service. We have both benefitted, although we have to be quick getting the estimates out and stay on our toes or we lose a job to 'next door'. Once I had moved, my top employee left, and took on the lease for my old workshop, just one mile away! Hey ho, thats the way it goes.

I do hope both these producers jog along together and realise the benefits of each other. Time, effort and money spent on solicitors is wasted in my opinion. I just spent 3.5k with solicitors with zero result!:frusty:

Peace:hippie: , Love:love: and Embrace:grouphug:.

Right, back to work!

Seanick, I think the point is being lost here, it's not that someone has imitated the Ribble lineup, for me it's more the fact of who has done it and its been done with the clear knowledge of the effect it may have. If Mike had come clean at the start then Andy could have chosen to either walk away from the deal or they could have had some agreement up front which both were happy with. I may sound like I'm banging a drum here but having an almost identical business scenario myself some years ago, which I won in the end, I feel strongly that to some extent Andy has been legged over on the deal. You may say caveat emptor but that doesn't resolve the bad faith that I think has been shown buy at least one or more parties on the deal.

Oh and on a lighter note I concur with the below

Peace , Love and Embrace.

:-)

I agree its a fine line, and also as its really not my area of expertise I shall leave it at that, and get back to the Tribute forum where I belong. Well I think I do anyway!:eusa_shifty:

Seanick, I believe there are no barriers here. I'm sure you are as welcome on this side of the fence as anyone :biggrin:

Having spoken to Mike over the last few weeks, I don't think it was ever the intention to set up a competitive company. As far as I am aware he is going to offer a lot more in the longer term as he certainly has the skill and knowledge to do.

in the meantime, as Seanick says, a little competition is good for the consumer and will offer choice where there was not much before. :eusa_clap:

The more of the 1950's style of cars that there are around will certainly help create awareness and interest in the market.

Anyway, there may be 127 Sammio kits sold, but I reckon that only about 20 are on the road! :eusa_shifty:

Mike - First things, first, that is one seriously nice looking car. :cool:

As you know, I'd love to see more photos of the doors:
- How are the hinge mounted inside the doors & body shell?
- What do the door openings in the bodywork looks like?
- Similarly, the door profile, etc.
It would really give me something to aim for on my own build.

The only thing I would say on the legal front is check the small print.

[Edit]... Removed my example ... [/Edit]

The law is generally just that, the law, not an opinion, feeling, or moral position.

Hope you and Andy can work something out.

Good luck, Paul. :)

oooh, look what a bit of surfing came up with...

www.migliasportscars.co.uk

Looks like some of it is still work in progress, but I like the site

Looks very 50's...

As someone who has dealt with Copyright Infringement, IP and 'Passing Off' claims within the London Insurance Market, I find this all very sad...

I can see where both parties are coming from (as per the thread comments) and can tell you the only winners will be in the solicitors costs department.

In an ideal world AndyP57 would recognise mikmiglias skill in design and fabrication and award him the title of Southern Agent, with the opportunity to build 'Ribble' vehicles under licence for a suitably small fee.

mikmiglia would of course be free to submit improvements to the design and production of Ribble-style vehicles for an agreed fee, but as an Agent/Consultant he could also fabricate non-Ribble style vehicles which he could offer to AndyP57 or elsewhere.*

mikmiglia would therefore become Batista 'Pinin' Farina to AndyP57's 'Enzo Ferrari'... ;)

*What constitutes a 'Ribble' / non-'Ribble' style vehicle would be open for lengthy debate...

The colour of the sky in my world is pink with blue dots...

Time to be honest
 

Did you really need to "surf" to find it?

The reason that I ask is that the twitter id "tlrtone" is linked to a chap called Tony ******.

A chap with the same name with a Poole address is the registered owner (this is all in the public domain) of the web domain management28.co.uk.

This domain name (and same Poole address) is given as the registered owner of the domain silo14.co.uk

Silo14 is the company credited with the design of migliasportscars.co.uk

Furthermore, the domain migliasportscars.co.uk is also registered to Tony ****** of the same Poole address.

Like anyone else that reads this, I am just assuming that this is a massive coincidence.

Its not a coincidence, he dropped into my workshop, and wanted one of my cars. And yes he builds websites, and very good onces too, very happy with what hes done. Highly recommended.

Oh........my fault, I must have missed the intended irony in his "oooh, look what a bit of surfing came up with..."

Thanks for clearing it up.

:lol: no probs

Ironic AND modest. Two good qualities.