CASCU Dino 246 GT
 

If anyone is interested I am now building a Dino 246 GT chassis so thought I would put a photographic record of this on my facebook page http://www.facebook.com/classic.and....cars.unlimited to show how one of these 100% replica chassis are put together. Once the chassis is built I may well do a similar record for the bodyshell and panels.

Been following your facebook page. Very interesting and impressive, will you be doing a GTS later on???

Hi there, yes we do the GTS as well. Just thought that it would be interesting for people to see how the chassis is put together hence the facebook record of the build.

Dino 246 GT coupe body and chassis almost complete
 

Just for anyone that does not follow this on facebook, here are a couple of pictures of the Dino body coming out of the moulds and fitting to the chassis, now almost complete.

Looks fantastic, will watch this with great interest.

John

Hi John, thanks for the interest. I have nearly got this to the stage where it is going to the customer as he wants to do some work himself. It's a shame I was really getting into this one. Please watch this space as if time allows I am hoping to do another one for myself using the remains of a Mondial chassis as a basis and the 3.2 QV V8 running gear.

Mark

Should be interested to know how difficult it would be to produce a LHD version.

It is relatively easy to make a LHD chassis as 95%+ is the same as a RHD after all Ferrari designed the car as a LHD and just slightly modified it to be RHD. The centre spine is still offset to the right on both RHD and LHD. It just has a hump and dogleg on the RHD to allow a little extra foot space and clearance for the throttle linkage. I have moulds for the LHD front bulkhead so that would just leave the pedal box and steering column mountings to move over. Hope this helps. Thanks Mark

Indeed that's very helpful, thank you. Shall continue following your progress with interest.
Chris

After a few weeks of playing around with the passenger door, I think I have come up with a good hinge setup, basically the same as the original Dino but with a side bar attached to the lock to give a lot of rigidity.
The door is a nice fit now so just the window frame and glass etc to sort out, but my customer wants to be getting on with this so we will look into it as he goes. There are a few more pictures on the facebook page.

Possible cheaper alternatives for the Dino running gear
 

Not too sure who owns pistonheads but they did not like my thread on the Dino 246, under the kit car section. I was trying to get some ideas for possible different running gear setups. I was starting to get a good thread going on possible Audi or Alfa running gear but they have banned me for the third time. I have therefore reverted back to the better website hence I will put this question out to all on here.
I am not really into modern cars so do not know too much about the Audis but I do like the possible idea of using the Audi engine and box. Has anyone got any experience of using the V6 or V8 in a mid engine kit car ?
If they have then I would be interested in some dimensions ie overall length, length from driveshafts to front of engine etc etc and what models of Audi can be used etc etc.
It would be great to get some input here.

PS I still prefer Ferrari running gear but I guess not everyone would want to go this route.
I have just about finished the 246 GT ready for the customer to continue with so I am aiming at building a 246 GTS next hopefully based on the modified Mondial 3.2QV chassis and running gear. After this I will be looking at alternative running gear solutions so there is plenty of time for everyone to come up with lots of ideas.

Hi Mark;
I´m building a Dino with an alfa v6, as you know, and the main issue is the rear suspension since there´s less space because the gearbox is alongside the engine and not underneath, as in the original dino. the top rear wishbones and mounting brackets can´t be the same.

Also, the other issue is the differential, which is lower than in the original car. This involves less space for the lower logitudinal members of the chassis. As a consequence of these things the position of the engine, a bit higher, leaves the intake almost touching the engine cover.

That said, it can be fitted, but it´s quite hard to find the space.
regarding the driveshafts, one of them has to be really short. The alfa has an intermediate shaft between the two driveshafts, and the gearbox one has to be cut or ordered shorter.

A logitudinal engine might allow the rear suspension to remain the same, but the space for the boot would probably be taken, and the look would be different, as down sides...

personally I prefer transverse mounted engine.

Although I like the idea of the transverse Alfa engine, it would mean quite a modification to the chassis or sitting the engine higher which could affect the engine cover as well as raising the centre of gravity. This is why I am more and more interested in the Audi setup. I know it would be in line but I am hoping it might fit without any major chassis alterations after all I think Ferrari did a pretty good job of it first time. The main problem is the length between the driveshafts and the front of the engine. The Ford 302 V8 engine with Renault UN1 box I have here is only a few inches too long to fit so I was thinking an Audi V6 might be that much shorter. I understand that the Audi box has the driveshafts closer to the clutch but I haven't seen one to check this. Also being a more modern setup the gearbox may hopefully be shorter as the UN1 box goes into the boot area which isn't a major problem, it would just be a case of raising the boot floor.
The old Saab engine/box setup would have been interesting as it is very similar to the Ferrari setup with the gearbox below the engine but is in line instead of transverse. However these are getting few and far between now so I think it is going to have to be a more modern unit like the Alfa or Audi unless anyone can come up with another option I hadn't thought of.

Hi again;

I agree the major advantages in using the audi are less chassis modifications. However, if you do change the chassis, the alfa can be in good position and centre of gravity as well. It wouldn´t be higher than the original dino engine, since you have to add the height of the gearbox there.

I came across the saab box as well. I also think it´s a bit old.

I don´t know the lenght of the audi engine and box, but I´m quite sure it can be fitted, as i know someone who did fit it to dino replica, although not much space left!! I´d say it´s shorter than the renault for sure

This way, with longitudinal mounted engine, you may be following the route of the very first dino, the "Dino competizione"!

I would be interested in any information on the Dino replica with the Audi engine and box fitted. Is there anything on the internet anywhere ? Ferrari seemed to have gone back to the in line engine layout on their later cars, there must be a reason for this, it would be interesting to know how this affects weight distribution etc.
I haven't completely forgotten about the Alfa engine but I would like to explore all the possibilities.

well, there´s no information on internet as far as i know. The car is a kit car project developed by crocus design. I visited them last year, and the car looked really good. I guess that, as usually with the dino replicas, any running gear different from the original, with the gearbox underneath, needs mode space, but it can be sorted out. Crocus has posted some threads on this forum.

Regarding the longitudinal engine and gearbox, i believe that if you use V8 or bigger engines, it´s a better layout in terms of space. Also the weight of the engine may be a bit closer to the middle of the car, but the down side is the weight located behind the rear axle.

This weight is critical regarding the polar moment of inertia. very little weight here makes a difference in handling, as increases the tail out movement...
Ferrari works a lot these things, that´s why the handling of their cars is so good. Pagani, for example, on their latest model the huyara, are using a transverse box, just like the mondial T, and a ultralight exhaust to save 15 kgs there!...

this is why I always thought that the original dino layout was a brilliant idea, because with the gearbox under the engine, the weight is very well centered, and if you see how the stratos performed with it, a car with a very short wheelbase...it was just amazing...

Hi, great news about your 246 plans. My preference for a modern alternative to the Dino V6 would be for another Italian V6 renowned for its sportiness. That points to an Alfa V6. These are found in everything from 164, 156, 166, GTV with manual, auto or selespeed gearboxes. They come in original 12 valve for low down torque to 24 valve and capacities of mainly 2.5, 3.0 or 3.2. Apparently they are not as light as some more modern engines - I know my 164 3.0 V6 felt @&$?@@@@ heavy when I tried to lift it by hand! They are very reliable and tuneable and have been called the best engine in the world. Not so sure about the current Alfa/General Motors version.

An Audi V6 with longitudinal gearbox might be good, although with arguably less soul than an Italian. The same engine can be found in a VW Passat longitudinally. Passats also have straight 4, Narrow angle V5 and the oddball W8 with twin narrow angle banks of 4 cylinders each. I'm not sure that manual gearboxes ever came with these. Two wheel drive boxes could be a problem - most had 4 wheel drive. Porsche used the two wheel drive Audi box originally in the Boxster - so there's another option. Subaru also have a longitudinal, very short boxer engine in 4 or 6 cylinder variants. (See Murtaya kit car).
That is my 2 cents worth, all the best with your builds,
Ross in NZ

Here's a P4 replica with Alfa V6 mounted lengthwise (looks like an adaptor - to Renault'box?)
http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/5...yaugusthw9.jpg
and a 355 engine/'box in the P$ chassis :
http://www.ferrarip4replica.co.uk/p4-build-diary/

and the Alfa V6 is supposedly 375 lbs dry
cheers
Ross in NZ

cheers
Ross

Hi Ross, thanks for your input. I will look into the Alfa V6, didn't really want to go for a 4 cylinder but the Audi V6 and V8s are favourable. Although after looking at that P4 chassis with the Ferrari 355 engine and box, this could be a good alternative. I prefer the Ferrari engine although I can understand that not everyone wants the running costs of these. I guess the Alfa and Audi engines may be a bit cheaper to run. I will look into the Porsche Boxster gearbox as I know someone who breaks a lot of these, it just depends on the length of the box as the Renault box is too long.
Thanks
Mark

Hi Mark
I caught an old episode of top gear last night and they had on one of gerry hawkridge's hf stratos replicas. AS you know the original stratos had a ferrari dino engine and I think gearbox from the 246. His chosen engine for his stratos replicca is the 3lt v6 from the alfa so it must fit the dino with little modification. As to running gear how about audi?
Ian