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-   -   Geoff's 250 SWB Replica Build (http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4261)

zagmad 19th September 2014 19:01

I think i would od done something like the bread van but with less side windows. Eg the door window and one extra possibly angled back , bit like the silver car in the ealier pics. And a hatch to go with it. If the wheelbase was lengthened some rear seats like the ff i think its called with the funny 4x4 system

Scottie22 19th September 2014 19:18

You are quite right Zaggers!

Pobodys nerfect................. Especially Olivier Decatoire

Mister Towed 20th September 2014 13:44

Just found another SWB side window treatment that looks interesting -

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...ps42737ea3.jpg

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3709221332...84.m1423.l2649

Bit of an oddity this car though, besides the three piece side windows it's also got Pininfarina badges on the sides, but the only reference I can find to Pininfarina designing a 250 is the 250 GT Pininfarina Coupe Speciale -

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...ps868ef00b.jpg

Could be a development hack I suppose?

Mister Towed 20th September 2014 13:55

OK, just found this and answered my own question -

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/ferrari-250-gt-swb.htm

A Pininfarina design indeed it was then.

y cymro 20th September 2014 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Towed (Post 59776)
Just found another SWB side window treatment that looks interesting -

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...ps42737ea3.jpg

That's a 250LWB which is different behind the doors to suit the longer 2600mm wheelbase.
At the time , Ferrari GT cars had either the LWB chassis 2600mm wheelbase or the shorter 2400mm, like the SWB.

y cymro 20th September 2014 19:03

Here's one I photographed at Goodwood:

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s...D36DD05F97.jpg

striker1660 21st September 2014 14:26

mgb donor
 
I love the swb shape and looking at the mgb it seems a great donor. The z3 is good but the modern windscreen shows up the modern element. I don't possess a photoshop programme but would really like to know what the 250 swb would look against the mgb base apart form the wheelbase the roadster would make a good period donor.

Can someone fit the swb side profile on the mgb profile line drawing as per the previous one done on the z3.

y cymro 21st September 2014 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by striker1660 (Post 59822)
I love the swb shape and looking at the mgb it seems a great donor. The z3 is good but the modern windscreen shows up the modern element. I don't possess a photoshop programme but would really like to know what the 250 swb would look against the mgb base apart form the wheelbase the roadster would make a good period donor.

Can someone fit the swb side profile on the mgb profile line drawing as per the previous one done on the z3.

Striker, spend 30 mins and read the whole thread. Everything's been discussed ad nauseum ;-)

Pandora 21st September 2014 15:51

I recently saw a photo of an Austin Healey 3000 which was fitted with a period fixed head roof which was clearly modeled on a SWB. It retained the big healey front end. It looks amazing!
Possibl in C&SC a month or so back?

Al

NeilF355 23rd September 2014 11:09

Here's a good replica I spotted at the Ferrari racing day at Silverstone, mind you it is a rebody of a 250 GTE!


https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/...6b&oe=54CD960B

Mister Towed 23rd September 2014 11:49

Nice colour and a very pretty car. Converting a 250GTE into a 250SWB is a bit like turning a silk purse into a silk purse though, whereas the Z3 is a proper sows ear of a car and really, desperately needs to be given the Tribute SWB treatment (imho).

y cymro 23rd September 2014 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Towed (Post 59873)
whereas the Z3 is a proper sows ear of a car (imho).

Especially when it has a 1.9l motor:boink:

zagmad 23rd September 2014 13:53

Well if the engineers had done a good job it could of had 170/80bhp like the Honda vtec equivalent . 1.8 i think it was.

y cymro 23rd September 2014 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by zagmad (Post 59875)
Well if the engineers had done a good job it could of had 170/80bhp like the Honda vtec equivalent . 1.8 i think it was.

I hope you don't mean the above replica spotted by Neil?

zagmad 23rd September 2014 23:33

Nope i meant the thing about the 1.9 z3being a slow to respond. Maybe it just needs a good thrashing to get them moving. :-)

WorldClassAccident 24th September 2014 09:06

I had a 1.8 Intergra Type R which kicked out 197bhp. It was a wonderful car, possibly the best balanced I have ever owned.

Kit 275GTB 24th September 2014 09:20

Conversion to ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Towed (Post 59873)
Nice colour and a very pretty car. Converting a 250GTE into a 250SWB is a bit like turning a silk purse into a silk purse though, whereas the Z3 is a proper sows ear of a car and really, desperately needs to be given the Tribute SWB treatment (imho).

Agreed. People did that conversion because it was easy and the result was more valuable than the one they started with. My own preference is for the Ferrari 275GTB shape but the Z3 conversion is quite difficult because the profile is so different. The Z3 wheelbase is 45 mm more, the 275 bonnet is mu-u-uch longer and the windscreen curves around into the door opening.

Mister Towed 24th September 2014 09:43

For several decades now BMW, in common with other European volume car manufacturers, have followed a strategy of offering each model with a range of engines to attract buyers with different requirements regarding purchase price/insurance/economy/etc.

Thus, Z3's were variously available with:
1.8/118bhp;
1.9(8v)/118bhp;
1.9(16v)/140bhp;
2.0(6cyl)/150bhp;
2.2(6cyl)/170bhp;
2.8(6cyl)/198bhp;
3.0(6cyl)/231bhp;
3.2(6cyl)/321bhp;
3.2(6cyl)/325bhp

Obviously, the smaller, lower powered cars are going to be slower, but not that much slower compared to the entry level six - even the humble 1.8 is only 1.5 seconds slower to 60mph and gets to within 8mph of the two litre's top speed.

Throw a slush box into the mix and things aren't so clear cut. A manual 1.9(16v), the most common (and cheapest) variant, is only 2.2 seconds slower to 60 and 11mph shy of a 2.8 auto's figures. What did BMW do with all that extra capacity and two extra cylinders?

Looking at the figures, they only managed to squeeze another 53
bhp out of a 900cc increase. This gives the 2.8 only 69bhp/litre while the 1.9 pumps out a far more healthy 74bhp/litre, so it's a more highly tuned motor than the wheezy old 2.8, which is clearly underpowered for its capacity.

If only the 2.8 was as well developed as the 1.9 it would make an easy 207bhp, which, coincidentally, is pretty much what Porsche got out of the 2.5 it put in early Boxsters, which are generally considered to be a bit slow.

Unsurprisingly, given its highly tuned nature, the 1.9 is actually half a second faster to sixty than the auto two litre, and there's only 1mph difference in top speed. So a manual 1.9 will easily get away from a 2.0 auto on a fast B road blast. Does that make the 2.0 auto shit?

Only if your sole criteria for making the judgement is speed. This would, of course, mean that the 2.8 is shit compared to the 3.0, which is shit compared to the 3.2M, which is, of course, shit compared to a TVR Cerbera at a similar price point.

I've done a bit of research on the much maligned 1.9 and it seems that its major issue is a heavy flywheel, which blunts its ability to pick up revs. That's it.

As a kit car builder there are other considerations when choosing an engine. I will be building a 250 at some stage in the not too distant future, and, believe it or not, tyre availability will have a major impact on the donor I choose. You see, the wheels I want to fit will be wearing 215/65/15 tyres. Right now, I can only find one 'V' rated tyre of that size while there are a dozen or so 'H' rated options, so I'd be reluctant to use a donor capable of more than 130mph. That limits me to the 1.8, 1.9's or a two litre six.

Having said all of the above, it will, of course, be...

A two litre six.

Call me a hypocrite if you like, but I rather like the noise it'll make. :)

Scottie22 24th September 2014 10:30

Very good article Mr T, but I think the major issue with the 1.9 is actually WCA!

WorldClassAccident 24th September 2014 11:41

My views on the 1.9 are just my views. It is a sluggish unresponsive engine that doesn't suit the character of the car.

I am not too fussed about top speeds as they are largely irrelevant during normal use. The 1.9 is slow to respond and doesn't seem to have the torque to give the car any umph. I agree it will make the car move but I am more concerned about how it feels when driving.

I used to have a 1.8 Honda that lacked torque but screamed round to 9,000rpm and was an absolute blast.

I have a 5.5 Supercharged Merc that has so muchg power and torque it makes me giggle.

Two totally different engines with totally different characteristics but both really enjoyable.

Please drive a 1.9 Z3 and then tell me if you can describe the engine as enjoyable. I am relying purely on my experience rather than the numbers published so it is subjective.

Mister Towed 24th September 2014 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by WorldClassAccident (Post 59909)
My views on the 1.9 are just my views. It is a sluggish unresponsive engine that doesn't suit the character of the car.

Please drive a 1.9 Z3 and then tell me if you can describe the engine as enjoyable. I am relying purely on my experience rather than the numbers published so it is subjective.

I'll have to defer to your judgement there as I haven't actually ever driven a BMW of any type.

And you're absolutely right, the character of an engine can make or break a car - I'd far rather drive my wife's Nissan Micra with its rev hungry unburstable 1240cc motor than get back into the XR3i I owned in the eighties with its thrashy CVH, a motor Clarkson described at the time as '...so nasty Moulinex rejected it for its magimix'.

Anyway, it's horses for courses but it'd be a shame to put someone off building one of these cars if all they could afford to insure was a 1.9 and they decided not to bother because of the engine's poor reputation.

Still think the 2.8 is underpowered for its capacity though, especially with a slush box. ;)

Mister Towed 24th September 2014 14:06

So, getting back to topic, I've just taken delivery of (and read the spots off) a copy of 'Octane' from August 2010, which has a 6 page article focusing on the 1961 SEFAC comp/61 spec. 250SWB, chassis number 2689GT -

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...psd86a2096.jpg

So, that's the standard I'll be striving to achieve, not an exact replica but an homage to that car inside and out.

I now really can't wait to see a Tribute SWB in paint with a side window solution I like, and I'm also interested to see the price the kit will be offered at so I can clear the budget with my better half.

Really getting itchy fingers as my spanners languish unused in the garage...

casamolino 24th September 2014 14:22

Afternoon Mister Towed considering what you have already built , that will be one thread i will be looking forward to , do you want to practise your Silver/Grey spraying skills! on a SWB? Geoff .

Mister Towed 24th September 2014 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by casamolino (Post 59913)
...do you want to practise your Silver/Grey spraying skills! on a SWB? Geoff .

Ha ha, afraid I'll have to pass on that, Geoff. It's one thing spraying my own car - if I feck it up I've only myself to blame - but I fear that the stress of trying to get a decent finish on someone else's pride and joy would either kill me or make me do a crap job.

Really looking forward to seeing your car in paint, even if you go with something other than silver. Before you make your final colour choice though, I'll just quote from the afore mentioned Octane article:

"In the California sunlight, the gleaming silver paintwork of 2689 GT shows off the lines to their very best."

Who am I to argue with such journalistic wisdom?

garyh 24th September 2014 14:50

Are you moving as well!

zagmad 24th September 2014 15:06

I wouldn't mind if you did a bad job on mine long as it was sealed the body from the elements till the spring then could get it done again. With more money saved for a proper job. Gonna take me a while to save up for a decent paint job. Depending if i get any cash from ppi or a rich relative lends me the cash with no interest. But i don't think my uncle reads this so prob wont happen soon prob take me 10 months to save up for a half good paint job including laquer. Might try the roller approach. :-)

Mister Towed 24th September 2014 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by zagmad (Post 59916)
I wouldn't mind if you did a bad job on mine long as it was sealed the body from the elements till the spring then could get it done again. With more money saved for a proper job. Gonna take me a while to save up for a decent paint job. Depending if i get any cash from ppi or a rich relative lends me the cash with no interest. But i don't think my uncle reads this so prob wont happen soon prob take me 10 months to save up for a half good paint job including laquer. Might try the roller approach. :-)

Do it yourself for under £400 including tools -

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50L-Air-Co...item5669a0d997

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sealey-Too...item258f45b0c3

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cellulose-...item56579ae628

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Farecla-G3...item43cec6fbfc

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUTOGLYM-S...item2592c344c6

Cellulose is very easy to spray and you can always sell the tools once you've sprayed your car, cutting the cost.

Go on, give it a go. After all, if you're planning to get a pro to spray it again anyway, what have you got to lose? :icon_biggrin:

redratbike 24th September 2014 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Towed (Post 59903)

Having said all of the above, it will, of course, be...

A two litre six.

So a donor like this would be idealhttp://www.gumtree.com/p/bmw/2000-bm...e36/1082297943

Mister Towed 25th September 2014 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by redratbike (Post 59937)

Great price - an otherwise decent donor with damaged paint/panels is going to be perfect for conversion - but it lacks two qualifications for me:

for simplicity's sake I want the donor to be the same colour as the car will end up (so that'll be silver), meaning I won't have to respray the engine bay/interior/etc;

I also want it to have a/c to keep the cabin temperature comfortable in summer. After all, it's going to have fairly impractical sliding perspex side windows and a black interior, so it will get uncomfortably stuffy on the Cote D'Azur without it. :)

Scottie22 25th September 2014 08:46

I don't think I will ever get round to building one of these, but if I did, I would go for for picking a donar in the final colour too, it seems
the perfect solution to a lot of niggles.

Mister Towed 25th September 2014 08:52

Some inspirational/aspirational pictures here, well worth scrolling through -

http://www.supercars.net/Pics?viewPi...=1&pID=1073424

Paul L 25th September 2014 09:26

Mister Towed: – Great link. :cool:

Based on recent evidence, is that Scottie22 on the right holding a coat with a red quilted lining?

http://www.supercars.net/gallery/119...90/1024987.jpg

:icon_twisted:

Not sure if you’ve seen this clip, but I imagine this is what the Tribute BBQ will probably look like in a few years times. :icon_wink:

Goodwood Revival 2014 Race Highlights | RAC TT Celebration - YouTube

Finally, Mr T, how long do I have to finish my first build, before you start your second? :rolleyes:

Either way, I am looking forward to reading another one of your build threads. :cool:

Good luck, Paul. :)

Mister Towed 25th September 2014 10:18

Nice clip from Goodwood Paul. The way they drive on the track you'd think they were £200 bangers from the local scrappy, not multi-million pound national treasures.

Not sure when my SWB project will get under way - at the longest it'll be January 2017 - but I could make a start next summer if the circumstances work in my favour (just don't hold your breath).

I doubt it would take me two years to finish the SWB, probably more like six to nine months, and that's mainly because I'll be totally replacing the interior, dash'n'all, as well as the exterior panels.

So, I could be looking at being on the road by Christmas 2015...

fatbloke 26th September 2014 09:25

A wonderful video of a 250 SWB in action at Spa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7yrZ-zGxNM

froggyman 26th September 2014 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatbloke (Post 59973)
A wonderful video of a 250 SWB in action at Spa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7yrZ-zGxNM

Nice!

puma931 26th September 2014 10:48

Why do some cars only have one heat shield on the exhaust, and what is the perspex screen on the bonnet for?

I quite like the blue no. 7 SWB


Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Towed (Post 59945)
Some inspirational/aspirational pictures here, well worth scrolling through -

http://www.supercars.net/Pics?viewPi...=1&pID=1073424


oxford1360 26th September 2014 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by puma931 (Post 59975)
Why do some cars only have one heat shield on the exhaust, and what is the perspex screen on the bonnet for?

I quite like the blue no. 7 SWB

Heat shield is on the side of the fuel filler as a protection against spillage.

Perspex on the driver's side is nothing more than a bug deflector.

WorldClassAccident 26th September 2014 18:35

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7yrZ-zGxNM

I quite like the little Alfa passing the modern(ish) Ferrari at the end of the clip

y cymro 27th September 2014 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by WorldClassAccident (Post 59998)
I quite like the little Alfa passing the modern(ish) Ferrari at the end of the clip

I agree. The Alfa 105 is one of the prettiest cars ever IMHO. Unfortunately, rust was the killer just like with many cars of that period. The one I owned a while back had little holding the upper body to the floorpan. Fine has long as you took it easy over yumps.

Tribute Automotive 28th September 2014 18:29

Bargain:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-M62-4-...item19f3317c5c

Apologies to all but progress on the SWB is very slow due to the need to catch up with kit orders delayed by SWB development.....


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