You are doing a blooming lovely job Peter. But I do have a major criticism. There was no evidence of any handbrake turns in the snow by your garage. Tut tut! Now you will have to wait until next year!!

:lol:

/\ he he :D (there is in my work car park :eusa_shhh: :eyebrows: )

Week 23.

Sorry no pictures this week. I've been working on an issue with my front hub bearings but nothing new to see at the moment. :sad:


....peter

Week 24 update.....

And so on to the engine trial fitting....

The Royal Sabre chassis that I have, was designed to take the Ford 'Cologne' V6 engines. These engines are very heavy and relatively low power for their CC. They are also hard to come by in good condition and second hand ones on ebay can be a bit of a gamble. Other Sabre builders have used the Rover V8 engines but my preferred choice at present is the BMW M52 in the 2.8 variety. These make 190BHP in stock form and there are plenty of cars about to choose an engine from. If I can get an early 1995 model I might escape having to fit cats. The Sabre gearbox tunnel will likely need some modification but as this is made of fibreglass and not structural it should be relatively easy to modify.

The big question still to be answered is whether the M52B28 will fit and still have room for the brake servo due to its 30 degree slant mounting angle. I have a 'gash' M52 engine from a previous abandoned project that I'm going to use to see if it all fits before committing to the final engine.

So I first bolted together the gash engines sump, block and gearbox. I then rested this combo on a 10mm thick offcuts of MDF on the chassis crossmember. I need to get the engine as low as possible but still need some clearance for the engine to 'rock' under acceleration. I'm using very stiff Land Rover engine mounts so there shouldn't be much vertical deflection.

I then cobbled together a gearbox mount from a Marlin part and some old Ford parts to bring the engine block level.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8377/8...e898b9f4_c.jpg
Engine fitting trials by marlinpeter, on Flickr

This combination created just the right height to get the engine block level. A more elegant mount will be made if this works.
(Since posting this picture on my Flickr site, Ian (Morris) has pointed ot that the BMW engines are mounted in their cars with the back of the engine sloppy down by about an inch, so I will experiment with dropping the back of the gearbox down further but I'm concerned about the propshaft working angle deltas.)

I then made up some 'stays' to hold the engine in the right position and at the right cant angle. Even without the cylinder head it tends to roll over if not supported.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8097/8...b37c6cfb_c.jpg
Engine fitting trials by marlinpeter, on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8243/8...9d7ca492_c.jpg
Engine fitting trials by marlinpeter, on Flickr

The disposable stays are able to be adjusted fore and aft and sideways. Since taking this shot I've slotted the holes on the stay to the rubber mount so I can adjust the engine side to side.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8085/8...e0ce5bf7_c.jpg
Engine fitting trials by marlinpeter, on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8112/8...677b13e6_c.jpg
Engine fitting trials by marlinpeter, on Flickr

Now I've got the engine in position, the next job will be to refit the body tub and see where I need clearance. That's a job for the weekend when my sons are around as it's a three man job!

I've also now swapped my Granada power steering rack track rods for the ones from the Sierra manual rack. This has given me the correct track width to adjust the front wheel toe-in correctly. The track rods have the same screw fitting inside the rack so it was an easy swap.

:smile:....peter

That's an interesting approach to sizing it all up. An "empty" block is going to be much easier to move about than a "full" one!

I was going to say that you have plenty of room in there - but then I remembered what the Sportster engine bay looked like at first before all the bits and bobs were bolted to the engine.

It will be interesting to see how it all fits one you have the body panels on, but I am guessing if they manage to squeeze a V8 in there you should be fine.

Must pop down and take a gander soon....

Cheers, Robin

Newbie
 

Hi Peter,

First off, it looks like you are doing an amazing job on this lovely motor.

Now to business. I have recently inherited an unfinished Sabre kit from my Dad. It has been sat as a rolling chassis for a few years now. I've yet to do a complete survey as to how it has held up, but at first glance it doesn't seem too bad.

I'm just wondering if you would mind answering my questions in the future as this will be my first build. I'm aiming to pick the car up in a little over a month and will be stripping it right back as you have done.

Any help from yourself and any others here would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Mark

Hi Robin,
yes, assembling the engine bits 'in situ' is much easier as I can lift the alloy block without a crane but probably not advised for an engine you plan to use as you can see rust forming on the parts.

Your welcome to come have a look whenever you like....

...peter

Hi Mark,

firstly, welcome to Madaboutkitcars and it's great to meet another Sabre builder. You are the second to contact me in the last two weeks so there are are a small group of us either building or restoring Royale Sabre cars.
I'd be happy to answer any questions that I can, but bear in mind that I'm still learning myself. Other sources of info are from the Royale Owners Club who are a very friendly bunch and also the current manufacturer (ACL) run by Malcolm Badger.

http://www.royaleownersclub.org.uk/index.asp

http://www.automotivecreation.com/
Malcolm has now a comprehensive list of parts on his website above and I'm sure he will help if he can.

Let's see some more info and pictures of your Dad's car and send me a PM if you want my direct email address,

...peter

Thanks Peter,

I think my Dad was a member of the owners club, I'll have to check with him.

As soon as I can get to the car I'll take plenty of pics and have a good rummage around it to see how it's looking.

Mark

Week 25 update.....

This is going to be a major update so let's see if I can get it all done in one update :smile: (I might need to split it if there is a limit on the lines of update).

The week started off with the Flo-flex differential/final drive mount that didn't fit. I made up a spacer a couple of weeks ago and decided to fit it before re-fitting the body tub.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8089/8...e6f4101b_c.jpg
Diff mounting spacer by marlinpeter, on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8520/8...26e4f839_c.jpg
Diff mounting spacer by marlinpeter, on Flickr

It now all fits OK. There was some lateral misalignment of the mounting holes which is possibly why the car came with 8mm bolts fitted. I filed out the chassis holes to align to the mount holes so that I could fit 10mm bolts and nylocks.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8093/8...1b2d0b4e_c.jpg
Diff mounting with spacer by marlinpeter, on Flickr

Next up was the body mounting foam. The build manual calls for body mounting felt which I couldn't find anywhere so I've used some handy self adhesive 3mm thick closed cell foam. It was easy to use and went on a treat.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8506/8...8588df6f_c.jpg
Body mounting foam by marlinpeter, on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8086/8...17cdab4f_c.jpg
Body mounting foam by marlinpeter, on Flickr

Then , Saturday morning my two sons were 'press ganged' down to the lock up to help me lift the body tub back on to the chassis to be able to press on with the Engine fitting trials.

The first problem was that the gearbox tunnel fouled on the Marlin gearbox bracket that I had co-opted, so that had to be removed straight away. Here you can see me using my engine hoist to lift the body up for me to work on the gearbox mount underneath.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8507/8...0275e893_c.jpg
Body lift!! by marlinpeter, on Flickr

After removing the gearbox bracket, the next obstruction is the top of the gearbox tunnel rests on the top of the gearbox so I've put these 40mm thick blocks of wood to hold the body tub clear.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8089/8...fba13a99_c.jpg
Next problem.... by marlinpeter, on Flickr

Problem three.....

....the next problem was that I had mounted the engine too far back to fit the cylinder head. I had to modify my 'engine stays' to move the engine forward by 20mm leaving a 5mm gap between the sump and the large chassis cross-member.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8512/8...8b7de97e_c.jpg
Problem three..... by marlinpeter, on Flickr

Problem four....

The next problem after fitting the cylinder head is this bit of cover guide gets in the way of the brake servo.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8232/8...aaf15a6e_c.jpg
Problem four.... by marlinpeter, on Flickr

I took a saw to the offending bit of plastic. I don't think it is important.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8521/8...6494da18_c.jpg
Problem four...fixed by marlinpeter, on Flickr

I think i'll pause here so I don't lose the whole update.....to be continued....

Week 25 update .... part 2!

After lots of trial and error in the foot-well and modifying holes and drilling new ones I managed to get a position for the servo.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8522/8...1066ecfd_c.jpg
Servo positioned by marlinpeter, on Flickr

Brake master cylinder - I can't see any issue fitting this with its reservoir fitted.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8521/8...11cf6371_c.jpg
Brake master cylinder by marlinpeter, on Flickr

I had to position the pedals as far to the right and as high as possible to create the best possible chance of fitting the servo. (the MDF is only temporary!!)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8230/8...c1ab4321_c.jpg
Pedal box by marlinpeter, on Flickr

Pedal positions need a bit of work but it shouldn't be too difficult to achieve a better spacing. They are also a bit high so I might need a spacer block under the carpet on the floor.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8231/8...602a22f6_c.jpg
Pedals by marlinpeter, on Flickr

I can just about get the rocker cover on and off with the servo in place but not much clearance for the engine to rock sideways?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8380/8...df479885_c.jpg
Servo/rocker cover clearance by marlinpeter, on Flickr

So this is as far as I've got this week but there is a lot more checking required....
In the following picture it all looks good but there is still a lot a checking to do like the bodywork, bonnet, radiator space and steering column, etc.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8381/8...418101ec_c.jpg
More checking required.... by marlinpeter, on Flickr


There is also one fundamental problem and that is the bodywork is still jacked up on 40mm blocks of wood. My original plan was to carve up the gearbox tunnel to lower the body but if I do this the servo will certainly not fit.
If I do fit this type of engine I will need to modify the chassis to lower the engine and gearbox by about 45mm.

I need to do a lot more measuring and thinking about the consequences before embarking on carving up the chassis.

Now where is that angle grinder :madgrin: :madgrin: :madgrin:

awesome stuff :D I like that diff bush / mount system.

Yeah, but I've spent far too much time on the car this week. Pauline says that I've got OCD but I don't know what she is talking about :lol: :smile:

obsessive car disorder, I think that one goes around quite a bit ;)

You do like a challenge ! great work Peter. What about cutting the Tub front to back and adding in a little width ?

:lol:.....I'll add that to my list of options ...

...along with the electric power driven hood :eyebrows: (Do you think my wife would notice if I nicked it out of her Audi TT :peep: )

But you're right, I do seem to make things complicated for myself. I just can bring myself to putting am old Ford engine (boat anchor?) in it.

On the subject of body mods, I've often looked at the Sabre and wondered if it would look a bit more 'vintage' if it did away with the headlight mouldings on the wings and had big chrome bowl headlights instead. And similarly, do away with the current windscreen frame and replace with a separate chrome framed jobbie. Not that I want to add to your workload :tape:

Gee thanks John, I think I'll put those on the list for when I've done everything else :lalala:

Maybe as an alternative to the MBM servo is a remotely located dual circuit servo.
I've found this one manufactured by a Spanish company called Iruna brakes and sold in the UK through a couple of retailers.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8095/8...0731f822_o.jpg
Alternative Servo option by marlinpeter, on Flickr

I've found it on Google fitted in a wide variety of cars from a classic e-type jag to VW camper vans, Cobras and a 356 speedster replica.

By using a remote dual circuit servo it gives me some more options than modifying the chassis.

Anyone got any experience of these units?


...peter

Hi Peter
I believe the MGB was upgraded using a remote servo and ebay have a few entries for 'MGB brake servo'. Might be a bit cheaper than the one you found but may only be single circuit. Further to JG's comments, you could even put the headlights in the front wings - Morgan style!!! However, I really like the Sabre as it was designed.

Hi Sorton,
Thanks for the tip. I've had a look at those and yes, I'd need two servos for the dual circuit brakes which is a requirement for the IVA (and good sound engineering anyway :wink:)
They look a bit bulky and have to be mounted at an angle of 25-45 degrees which adds to the space issues. (the Iruna seems to have bleed valves to get the air out)
On styling, I think you and John have watching the Sammio/Tribute threads too much :lol:
I'll be sticky rigidly to the kit design i've bought!!

:smile:.......peter

Could you not just lower the engine/gearbox at the back? Comparing the chassis to the Sportster I can see you have a crossmember towards the rear of the box which I guess is the main problem? As I remember (haha - few years since I crawled underneath) the Sportster is a peripheral chassis with little in the way of crossmembers allowing the back of the box to be quite low and supported by the transmission tunnel on a bracket.

Cheers, Robin

Hi Robin,
yes, I could drop the back end of the gearbox down a bit but can't go too far or the propsahft will foul on the crossmember. But i'll end up with an extreme angle difference between the gearbox output flange and the diff input flange. All I've read on propsahft theory is the difference should be less than .5 degree and I'm already at 1 degree.
To compensate I would have to rotate the diff casing so it's pointing up at the front, not impossible, but quite difficult to do.

You'll have to come down and take a look... :eusa_think: :eusa_think:

Hi Peter
You could always - with a bit of imagination of course - consider lifting the suspension as per this site :)
http://www.bannedinhollywood.com/top...h-lifted-cars/
I haven't seen it done on the Sabre yet so you could make a name for yourself with the first :icon_lol:

Peter

Is the limitation due to the rubber doughnut? The guy who made my prop-shaft up told me not to fit the BMW rubber doughnut as they will shred if there is any mis-alignment. I think you will be fine with any amount of angle that you are likely to create.
Have a look at lorry U/Js the next time you go passed one - they usually have an angle, and are subjected to huge torque loads without a problem.

Have a word with a U/J supplier before writing off the idea of running your prop at an angle.

Mike

Hi Mike,
I meant to add a link in my last answer.....
http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_...Specifications

It seems that you can have large working angles but the difference between the working angles must be < 1 degree.
I wasn't planning on using a rubber doughnut so that was not affecting my thinking.
I'll try dropping the back of the gearbox and see if that gives me enough clearance. Ian's already mentioned that the M50 runs in the BMW at an angle pointing down at the back, so that should not be a problem.
But apart from the price, I am getting quite keen on the Iruna servo option.
I hope to try some more options later this week.....

Week 26 update.

Not a lot to report on this week due to being busy with other things this week.

I did put on the engine compartment sides, the heater cover thingy and the front nose to check for engine clearance issues.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8369/8...7d0091a0_c.jpg
Engine clearance by marlinpeter, on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8239/8...093cb03b_c.jpg
Engine clearance by marlinpeter, on Flickr

And I'm please to report there are no new issues!

I also made up a cardboard mock up of the Iruna brake servo, thanks to my Blue Peter training.

I'd like to mount it up near the master cylinder but space is a bit tight....

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8092/8...258597f0_c.jpg
Possible sevo location 1 by marlinpeter, on Flickr

....but it will easily fit below the inlet manifold and it can sit on the chassis. And probably easier to bleed the brakes in this position as well.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8380/8...2da5cdfc_c.jpg
Possible sevo location 2 by marlinpeter, on Flickr

Not had any time to try out any new engine mounting positions and the angle grinder is locked away for now :wink:


:smile:.......peter

Week 27 and 28 progress report.

Week 27 saw no physical progress due to some higher priority indoor DIY jobs and some horrible weather outside. But it did give me some thinking time to weigh up the options of modifying the chassis or the GRP bodywork.
In the end I deicide to have a go at the bodywork on the basis that I could put that back together again if it didn't work.

So yesterday I did some thinking and drawing.....the pen marks were to enable me to think about which cuts would be the best and enable me to visualise the different options.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8381/8...eb7bd7b5_c.jpg
Gearbox tunnel mods by marlinpeter, on Flickr

I had a go at cutting with a hand held hacksaw blade but quickly decided I needed something bigger. So I went and hired this little beauty. Only £14.90 for a days hire and it was brand new!

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8112/8...200cd802_c.jpg
Battery Angle grinder by marlinpeter, on Flickr

With some fully charged batteries and some nice spring sunshine it didn't take very long to have the tunnel cut out allowing me to finally lower the bodywork back on to the chassis.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8373/8...a6383320_c.jpg
Gearbox tunnel mods by marlinpeter, on Flickr

Which left me this....
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8372/8...192fbcf5_c.jpg
Gearbox tunnel mods by marlinpeter, on Flickr

Here you can see my body lifting technique required to get the final trimming for clearance.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8245/8...e296831b_c.jpg
Gearbox tunnel mods by marlinpeter, on Flickr

Next I installed the propshaft and gear change mechanism to check for any issues. The gearbox mechanism will need to be shortened by about an inch.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8391/8...b57f8e14_c.jpg
Gearbox tunnel mods by marlinpeter, on Flickr

I also checked that the propshaft didn't foul on the handbrake.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8109/8...932e132e_c.jpg
Gearbox tunnel mods by marlinpeter, on Flickr

I originally envisaged just raising the tunnel parallel with the floor but then realised I could mount it at an angle making this joining point much smoother and simpler.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8531/8...d02d17e4_c.jpg
Gearbox tunnel mods by marlinpeter, on Flickr

I think I'm going to leave those bits overlapping to increase the strength.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8101/8...8af27497_c.jpg
Gearbox tunnel mods by marlinpeter, on Flickr

....to be continued........

............Week 27 and 28 progress report (continued.....)

Clearance at the bulkhead is very tight so I think I'll have to trim this flange back a bit. This is looking down at the back of the engine.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8382/8...753403b6_c.jpg
Gearbox tunnel mods by marlinpeter, on Flickr

In the next shot I'm checking the clearance of the gear mechanism to the propshaft.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8104/8...9930fe46_c.jpg
Gearbox tunnel mods by marlinpeter, on Flickr

The propshaft will need lengthening and a different gearbox mounting plate is required. This was not unexpected.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8098/8...89edf83c_c.jpg
Gearbox tunnel mods by marlinpeter, on Flickr

No issues at the diff end of the propshaft.....

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8231/8...f674dcf5_c.jpg
Gearbox tunnel mods by marlinpeter, on Flickr

Here is an overall shot with tunnel removed. It's tempting to make the tunnel removable for servicing the finished car but I'm worried there might be too much flex in the body?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8519/8...0b44febc_c.jpg
Gearbox tunnel mods by marlinpeter, on Flickr

I've got a few more things to check (like the dashboard!) but I think it's going to fit!

Now.....how do you get rid of the smell of polyester dust from your nose?? :lol:


....:smile:....peter

Nice neat work, and fibreglass is reassuringly thick :thumb:

You could reinforce the floor by glassing in some ally box sections (or angle sections) around the hole perhaps? Could also be used to re-fix the gearbox cover to perhaps? Having a removable gearbox cover would be a great service asset methinks.

It's not the smell of glassfibre I hate. It's the itching afterwards. It doesn't matter what gloves I wear it always seems to get through some how.

Still - no glassfibre on the current project :-)

Cheers, Robin

Thanks, Robin, that's a good idea that'll I'll take a look at. If not I'll be drilling some holes and/or some access panels because at the current moment I couldn't get the engine out without removing the gearbox (because the sump is trapped behind the chassis cross-member) and I can't get the gearbox bolts out with the tunnel in place :doh:
There is always the option of lifting the whole body off on a Sabre but that could be a lot of work once the carpets, seats, doors and hood are fitted again.
If I do glass it in again and then need to get access it would be easier to just cut it out again and glue it back afterwards but a bit of a drastic solution. :dizzy:
The upside of glassing it all back together is in restoring the bodies original structural strength and rigidity.

BTW I forgot to mention, I did try your previous suggestion of dropping the rear end of the gearbox but even at 'full droop' the body was still about 20mm suspended by the gearbox cowling off the chassis.

...peter

Week 29 update.

I've started this week on remaking and refitting the transmission tunnel in it's new position so that it clears the BMW M50 gearbox. I have decided to try and make it removable and will strengthen most of the joins with steel angle.
I started at the rear point first. I've made up a aluminium 'hoop' to join the tunnel at this point. I need to remake it in thicker aluminium and make it slightly longer. I'll probably just use filler to smooth the gap once fixed in place. It provides a good location point before any other fixing.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8097/8...71a93cdb_c.jpg
Transmission tunnel mods. by marlinpeter, on Flickr

I then made up and fitted strips of steel angle to the floor to provide a fix point for the sides of the tunnel. This is just bolted at the moment but will be screwed and bonded when finalised. The tunnel sides will be fixed with screws into rivnuts and sealed with RTV silicone so that it can be removed, if necessary.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8249/8...905d2f54_c.jpg
Transmission tunnel mods. by marlinpeter, on Flickr

I've now extended one side of the tunnel down to the floor.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8099/8...090f0a72_c.jpg
Transmission tunnel mods. by marlinpeter, on Flickr

The other side has been 'glassed up this afternoon and is currently setting. All rather time consuming work so it doesn't look like much progress this week.


:smile:.....peter

Archive film from 1998
 

Sorry about the lack of updates but in the meantime I came across this video, so I'd thought I would share....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xorLniPLTdY

the piece on Royale starts at 18 mins 30 secs.

Great bit of film.... I wonder what the 'secret' new car was??

I think the Sabre was launched in 1994 and in the film they say that about 200 had been built, so they were shipping about 1 kit every week!! :eek:
The chap featured is a now committee member of the Royale Owners Club.

I can't believe I haven't updated this thread since March!!

Well actually I can because I've been consumed with moving house and taking on a full time work assignment.
I've not had time to work on the Sabre so no progress to report.

But the good news is my work assignment completes this Friday and we are moving house next Friday!!:high5:

The Sabre will have to follow on later once I get the new house sorted. Hopefully, I plan to be back in the garage in the spring next year but I'll keep you all posted when I move the Sabre and two lock-ups full of parts!!

If I can I'll grab a picture of the new 'man cave' which needs a lot of work itself so I am going to be very busy.:icon_wink:

Good luck with the move. It sounds like you've got your work cut out.

Don't loose any important bits in transit. Two lock ups of parts is a lot to move and at the moment you probably know exactly where everything is.............

I hope all goes well. Are you going far?? Will you still be peterux!!

Nigel

Thanks for the best wishes.
I think finding stuff after we move is going to be a major problem with so many boxes!!

Not going too far, just a few miles from J9 of the M1.
TBH I had completely forgotten about the 'Ux' in my user name so i'll think i'll leave it the same or I will confuse everybody including myself!

...peter

Hi I’m Steve, the owner of the Blue Sabre in post No. 26. I don’t know if you have decided on wheels yet, but the steel wheels are available from www.wheelwright.co.uk, they are Ford Sierra winter wheels but in 15”. Wire wheels look great but the adapters can increase track width and this seems to shorten the life of the front wheel bearings. Build is looking good keep it up. Steve

Hi Steve,
your car looks superb and is a very nice example.
Thanks for the link to wheelwright which coincidental I saw an advert for about the same time you posted this. I do like the look of wires but the cost, the cleaning and potential wheel bearing wear may put me off. The steel wheels do suit your car nicely so may go with steels.
I'm still hoping to re-start my re-build next spring but have a long list of house jobs to do!!
...peter