F 275gtb/z3
 

In Blue Peter Fashion - here is one I made earlier:

This was an unfinished project, putting a fibreglass body 275GTB/4 body on to a shortened Ferrari 400a chassis. I sold it earlier this year to a guy in Italy when I ran into health problems and thought I would not be able to finish it. :icon_cry:
Now I have recovered and looking for something else to do and thought I might put the same body on a BMW Z3. The reason for choosing this is that all the Z3 panels are bolt on and opinion has it that it will not need an IVA. I am planning to retain the screen for ditto and rollover strength and the door internals for side impact protection. Also, the modern (ish) mechanicals will make it possible to use as a daily driver and the price of a donor is much more reasonable.:smile:
Purists will not like it because I will have to make some concessions about the profile because of (1) the windscreen shape (2) the difference in conformation between the door, screen, wheels and bonnet.:shocked:
I have played with cut out profiles taken from engineering drawings and cut up 1:24 scale models of the Z3 and 275GTB and reckon that it is possible and not too far from the 275GTB shape. This composite model shows the Z3 door in grey.

So, before I commit to buying a Z3 and altering my 275GTB panels, what do you reckon? Am I wasting my time?

Hi I would recommend taking a mold from your existing kit first so that when you go down the cut and shut route you can remake any panels if you go too far.

But a great idea!

I have the moulds and I am in the process of making a standard body. I will then cut it to fit the 30mm longer wheelbase and shorter bonnet as you can see in the composite 1:24 model, then make new moulds and from them make a new body. That is quite a long job!

Side windows and indicators
 

With the help of some references from Geoffs 250GTO thread, I have found side indicator repeaters at http://www.ebay.de/itm/Seitenblinker...a-Fulvia-Coupe.
I am looking at two possibilities for side window glass - glass from the Z3 coupe available from america at $150 each (plus postage and duty) or lexan windows from Plastics 4 Performance (uk) www.lexan-windows.com/ at £90 each. The coupe has a different glass profile which might work.

Hi,
tell me more about that 275GTB/4 fiberglass body!
It looks very close to the original car on the 400i chassis! Where are you located? Are you selling bodies?

Good luck with your project,
Axel

275 look alike
 

Hi Axel,
Thanks for the complement. Read my original posting for what I have NOT said. I don't know about copyright law and I don't want Mr F's lawyers chasing me. I can only work for an hour or so each day so you would have to wait for me to finish my adaptation of the shape to a Z3 chassis. My thoughts on that have changed and I will have to buy a new 275 model to see if I can move the wheel arches to make it fit the door and windscreen better, rather than my original plan to lengthen the sill by 30mm. I live in Derby and send me a private message if you want to come and see work in progress.
George

paper trial of 275/z3
 

Here are my second thoughts - my Photoshop skills are not well developed so I have ended up cutting the outlines on printed paper and sticking them together.
I have started by putting the front of the door opening in the right place then cutting the wheel arches to fit my rather battered Z3 model. The paler red door is from the Z3 to show the differences in the door skins.
I have used Photoshop to fill in the body to the top corner profile of the Z3 window. I have also lifted the roof line to match the window top edge. The other major alteration is to shorten the rear edge of the bonnet to match the lower edge of the screen.
This makes the profile a bit tubbier than the 275 but I think it maintains the essence of the shape. I won't really know until I make a full size one.
(P.S. How do I make this image appear inline?)

Hi George
I recall seeing the car you built earlier for sale, I’m glad to hear you are feeling better and looking to build a new car. I seem to remember you saying that you could do the panels for a 275 Nart spyder, would that be on the BMW Z3 as well?
As far as copyright law goes my understanding is that you can legally build up to 4 exact copies of any production car for your personal use. I got this info from one of my friends who ran into trouble with Volkswagen Audi and had to research the legalities of his kit.
I have sent you a PM.
Good luck with your build.
Neil

275 nart
 

Hi Neil,
Thanks for that info. The NART variation is quite easy if you have a standard 275GTB but at the moment all my time and effort is taken up with the 275GTB/Z3. I have had a very nice conversation with Tribute who could be interested when they see a finished product so I am energised again.
George

window channel
 

More second thoughts - does anyone know where I can get metal U channel to make a window guide? And how do I bend it without getting a kink (in the metal, not me!)

Think you need to cut slits in it...try cbs

window channel
 

I can't find the metal on car builder solutions website but they do have the felt liner. I think I will have to go and look in the scrap yard.

Have you tried your local builders merchants? I know B&Q do a 10mm wide and 10mm deep steel U channel in 2000mm lengths.

U profile
 

Nice one Neil,
They do it in various sizes and in steel, brass and PVC
George

Third thoughts
 

After an observation by Egdik that the front edge of the side window of the Z3 seemed to be angled back about the same amount as the rear edge of the 275, I realised that I could possibly make a replacement glass (or plastic?) window that would wind up and down. So back to the paper cutouts again.
This time I have moved the rear part of the 275 forwards so that the bottom of the glass meets the Z3 window and cut a new wheel arch further back.
I have made the sill one part with the lower front wing where the gills sit and managed to preserve all four while moving the wheel arch back. The top half of the wing will open with the bonnet like the Z3.
I still haven't quite resolved the door opening.
What do you think?

Thank you Santa
 

Look what Santa brought me! A Z3 Kit car ... and it only took me two hours to build and it's got a wooden steering wheel too.

Window frames
 

It is possible to use a Z3 front glass guide reversed as a rear guide - the benefit being that the vertical curvature is the same. Then find a top rail. Here is one welded up in my garage:


Attachment 1904

Also shown is a drawing of a Z3 base, in light blue, with GTB panels. They are to the same scale, but the sill is trimmed to suit and the GTB panels moved slightly, in an effort to give satisfactory proportions. ie the nose is lengthened and the rear overhang reduced. Only 3 front vents and the rear vents are moved forward a touch.

Attachment 1905

Window frame
 

That is an interesting approach. I have been playing with two different lines of thought about the window frames.
One is to use stock, straight, U channel with a Lexan window and modify the fibreglass GTB panel at the rear of the door opening to match the slope of the Z3 front edge. It would be better to use channel with the right curvature to match the quarter light. Does anyone know if it is possible to bend U channel?
The second is to keep the standard glass window and make the rear of the door opening match the curve. This has the advantage of keeping the standard window but may change the look too much.

Side vents
 

I have been trying to decide whether to keep the 4 engine side vents with reduced panel width each side or reduce the number to three. The 275 nose is very long and there is a greater distance from the wheel arch to the screen so it has to be modified somehow. Any comments are welcome. I am still playing with alternatives but I have not been out in the workshop since before Christmas as I have the crippling cold that is rife around here.

This video seems to indicate that you can bend U channel, although he doesn't actually show the bending process in action. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22PqMv1fQ9w.
As far as the vents go I would stick with the 4 slats and reduce their width a little. Going from 4 to 3 is a lot more obvious than going from full size to slightly narrower in my opinion.

door glass
 

Interesting video Neil, I thought a tube bender would just kink the U section. I would probably do the top corner bend separately and cut out enough to weld in place, the upright is bent the other way but much more gently. I am still wondering whether to keep the original Z3 glass (which is self supporting) and make the door aperture to fit the large radius rear edge curve like the hard top. Any opinions?

GTB by Simpson usa
 

Some time ago I came across Simpson design in the States and here is a photo of their GTB interpretation on an MX5 base car. A Z3 conversion will be more realistic.

Attachment 1906

I was alerted to Simpson Design by the post on "Geoffs 250GTO thread" but I missed this photo when looking at their website. Using the MX5 as a base car imposes the same basket of compromises that I have faced with my 275/Z3 design but is less appropriate for this country than using the Z3 as a base because of the IVA rules and also the engine is limited to 1800cc whereas those who want more power can go for the 2.0, 2.2, 2.8, 3.0 or even the MTech 3.2 version of the Z3.
I see that they have retained the MX5 screen and door glass (and handle). They have lost two of the side vents and got the wrong shape for the side light and indicator. Overall a very nice update of the MX5 but is it a good imitation of the 275GTB? Egdik prefers to retain the 275GTB squared off shape with a new rear and top frame for the side window but my present inclination is to retain the Z3 glass for ease of manufacture (I can modify the fibreglass to suit either shape).

Through the forum I jumped to the Italian Replica Car Club site and found this interesting info:
"Please look at the www.dft.gov.uk/dvla/vehicles.aspx (CHANGED TO https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration) website in section Motoring/ Registering a rebuilt vehicle, kit car and kit conversion - section kit conversions.

This has changed to include body kit conversions, and affects all body kit conversions finished or future builds, on unaltered chassis or monocoque bodyshells, if the general appearance of the vehicle has changed. For example F355,F40,F360,F430,Dino on Toyota MR2 or Ford Cougar - 250 GTO on Porsche or Datson - 308,F40,Testarossa on Pontiac Fiero - Dino, 250LM on VW Beetle

I have a received a reply to a number of questions I asked the DVLA in an email, which I can forward it to anyone who requests it. In short it says:

1. If the body kit fitted alters the general appearance, and the monocoque bodyshell or chassis has not been cut into, then the V5 should be sent to the DVLA with a covering letter detailing the changes , pictures of the finished car, and of the build if you have built it , and copies of any receipts you have. They will then amend the V5 under model to reflect the altered appearance, but not the Manufacturer.

2. If the monocoque bodyshell or chassis has been cut then it will have to have an IVA to register the vehicle.

3. All local DVLA offices are closing in the near future and I am informed that any inspections of vehicles to determine if IVA is required , will be done at a MOT testing staion.

The DVLA has not indicated what the price for this might be."

IVA definitive reply
 

I have received this email from Roy Kelly, chairman of the Italian Replica Club.
:high5:
I will be taking delivery of a Z3 next week and stripping it down. I will then try the panels I have made and check the cut and paste I will have to do with the real thing rather than bits of paper!

In my opinion it would be a lot easier to keep original glass and alter the door aperture to take the glass.

Have you considered using the door glass from the Z3 coupe, the doors themselves look the same so, with luck, it could be a straight swap. It doesn't have the curve on the rear edge so it looks more like the 275 GTB glass.

Yes Neil, but Z3 coupes are very rare. I have not found a manufacturer or stockist of door glass.

Not sure where you are in the UK but there is this on ebay at the moment, collection only. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1415333892...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Also Plastics4Performance will manufacture a Lexan replacement door window for the Z3 but as they are for racing they are a bit pricey (circa £90 each). http://www.plastics4performance.com/...or-window.html

Thanks Neil, I have already put in a bid. It is about 50 miles from me.
George

Don't deal with 1st Choice Cars in Hockley
 

I won't be taking delivery of my Z3 today as they sold it on Saturday to someone else!

Hi George

I had the same problem last week with a trader selling an MR2 to someone else after agreeing that he would sell it to me, for full asking price too! :frusty:

January is a good time to buy a convertible, another will be along soon I'm sure.

I bought a ready stripped rolling Z3 shell from a breakers for very little, really useful for doing development work on. Just a thought.

"A man's word is his bond"
 

... unless he is a second hand car dealer it seems, sorry you had the same experience. I must say I was a bit unsettled when talking to him on the phone, which is why I phoned him again before setting out. It has cost me a train ticket and insurance premium so I am a bit sore. Better luck next time!
I considered buying a shell when one was advertised on Ebay a while back but I need to see how the panels are fitted and various things like hinges so I will be buying a runner.

It is good to have everything in place on the car to check clearances if you don't have another Z3 to hand for reference.

I have found another MR2, fingers crossed it will still be there when I go to collect. Maybe even paying a deposit doesn't mean anything nowadays?

DVLA and taxing problems
 

I have found another Z3 and negotiated a sale but just before going to pick it up I found it was recorded as a total loss! The present owner had received a cash settlement from the other driver's insurance after being hit while parked (after advertising the car) and they had wrongly put a total loss marker against it but admitted their error and removed it, but too late for me to travel and collect it. They have offered to re-imburse me for my expenses (amazing!)
The other part of the story is the appalling new DVLA online taxing system which does not recognise that a vehicle is SORNED when you re-tax it and insists that you pay all the back tax. The new owner normally has to pay for a whole month and the seller only gets back any unused WHOLE months - nice little earner for the Government! I decided that I would wait to the 1st of next month (which happens to be a Sunday) to collect but you can't pay for tax in advance and it still insists you pay for the whole month and when it runs into any difficulty it says go to your nearest Post office (on a Sunday?). What a mess! I spoke to my local Postmaster and he said yes it is a mess but keep all the documents with you when you travel and come to me on the Monday. If I get stopped or flashed I MAY get off with a warning.

Z3 2.8 now in my workshop and panels being "cut and pasted" according to my design concepts. I will post some photos when I have something to show.

Progress
 

I have managed to strip my Z3 but Haynes manual doesn't tell you "do this first" and misses some vital bolts that you can only find when the panel doesn't move. I have taken pictures of progress and will put some text together to help anyone else in the same boat.

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/foru...&pictureid=226

Did someone post a comment about Ferraris having a happy face?

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/foru...&pictureid=227

I am now offering up panels to see how they have to be modified to fit. These panels are held in place with sticky tape to give me an idea how it looks.

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/foru...&pictureid=228

Progress
 

It is good to see some progress and it is beginning to look in reasonable proportion.

The wheel arches appear to be much as you anticipated, with the forward movement of the front and rear sections: how many inches ?

Tell us more please.

Wheel arches
 

No this shows the wheel arches in their proper place on the panels. I made some arches and tried them with the nose section moved forward but it looked wrong. I will post some pics later.

Looks good mate keep up the good work :)

How's this progressing? Looks a really interesting project