Bought a Z3..........what a bummer.....
 

Last thursday i bought a z3,decent low mileage car with a little parking damage to use as a donor for a SWB build.
I was happy with it as it was a solid base car to use as a donor.
But.........i have it driven 3 days (1200 km)and realize i don't like it at all......
As much as i like the SWB tribute and was all prepped to purchase a kit and build one i now know it is NOT my car,don't know how to say it.........think it is a too modern car for my taste.
I am only use to drive classic cars up to 1974,i even don't like to drive the wife's brandnew Ford Focus,my daily is a Peugeot 404 and with nice wheather the '48 Hotrod or the '62 Anglia so i think a Z3 based SWB would be a dissapointment..............sold the Z3 to a trader today.........
Perhaps a Sammio will be better for me...........
René

Sorry to hear that René, At least you got to drive it before you started the build. I have never driven a Berlinetta, much less one with a Rover V8 engine. I just hope I like mine when it's finished.

I know what you mean Rene, I based my build on a 1971 Spitfire so I would have a "period" old-car feel to what will look like a 1950's car.
Good luck with whatever you choose to have in future!

Scottie

Good call Rene, if it's not for you it's not for you. :(

I had similar reservations about the modern donor route for the SWB - if you look back through Geoff's thread you'll find me asking if the MGB GT could donate its mechanicals - but I've come to terms with the Z3 as a suitable starting point due to the difficulties of cutting the shell on the MG.

I'm aiming to lose a lot of the modern feel when I build mine: the interior will be totally late '50's, while I'm leaning towards original sized, 185/80/15 tyres too (excuse the pun), which should soften the ride and give a more authentic feel to the handling.

Best of luck with whatever project you choose next, keep us posted. ;)

I find the driving characteristics of a modern car in combination with a classic model a good choice. Rene, since you are not used to drive in any modern car, I'd still have gained some more driving experience and precisely because of the comforts to enjoy this.
Then also the MX5 would be no basis, because then you can still choose this one : http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/foru...ead.php?t=4141

Maybe this project will appeal to you, as it is a complete body-on kit, so no panel change, it must be mounted on a R4 chassis, which you can choose from 1961 up to about 1992, it will also give you for sure a classic driving experience !

The model has a lot of vintage british elements and a lot of influences from the legendary Morgan.

The first complete prototype will be ready soon

My link : http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/foru...ead.php?t=4173


And for you........It's in Holland !!

That's a shame Rene.
I found that the longer nose on my Z300S, the narrower higher profile tyres and the exhaust note sufficiently changed the character of the car to leave the "modern" feel behind.
I don't intend to change the interior on mine apart from a possible colour change.
I've used my Jago as a daily commuter (it has no hood) so I appreciate some creature comforts.
Perhaps when you are able to try a demonstrator...

Thanks for te support guys,it's a bit difficult to explain what i want with a car that suits me.........
Lets start...........seatbelts,i definatly hate seatbelts.I feel like a prisoner wearing seatbelts,they cause pain in my left shoulder(smashed shoulder and collarbone in the past because of a motorcycle crash) but they are mandatory after 1972.
Electrikety.........modern cars have too much electronics for me,i like to drive myself and not a bloody computer telling me how to drive.
If a modern car brakes down you need an electrician instead of an mechanic and you can not repare it yourself most of the time.
Inside room..........i find modern cars small on the inside,almost no leg room and mostly a very big gearbox tunnel console thing to house all of the electrikety thingies.
My '48 Ford Anglia Hotrod is a small car,very narrow as all sit up and beg's are,but there is enough room for my fat ass,the '62 Anglia is also a small car but again enough room to sit in.The Peugeot 404 is big car wit large front seats,no tunnel and very comfortable.
If something breaks down on one of these cars i can repare it myself and thats what i want.
@Jeffrey..........sorry to dissapoint you but the R4 kit you are building does it not for me,it looks like more of the same as you know what i mean,there are already so many Morgan-ish kitcars.........
I am having thoughts about a A352 tribute,Miglia or Sammio at the moment as they are build on a classic car and have a classic racing look.
For now these thoughts are not concrete but i have to let some time get over it.
Like the tribute A352 with the hardtop though............:icon_lol:

Seat belts - no way round that since 1972, sorry

Electrikety - the only possibly intrusive thing is traction control and that can be wired off, unless you count a radio and working headlights as intrusive. The ECU etc give you a fault code to tell you where the problem is. You still need a brain to fix it. Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow is still all mechanical

Inside room - Cars have got bigger as people have got bigger. All the soft padding can be removed. much more room in my Z300 after ripping all the plastic centre console and glove box out

Yes old cars had proportionately more room as the contained less stuff. If you take the stuff you don't want out of the modern car you regain a lot of the space.

I don't understand what you can't repair on the Z3 compared to the 404 (great car). Okay, if the fuel injectors fail you have to replace the part but that is the same for the old cars too. Some bits you mend and some you replace

My Z300 with skinny wires and partially stripped interior feels totally different to the Z3. It actively encourages you to change your driving style too - turn in, let the tyres settle and then chug out the corners.

In my Mercedes it is accelerate towards the corner, turn in and accelerate through the corner - just watch the flashing yellow light on the dash sort out the problems for you. I am guessing this is not what you want.

I am not saying you are wrong in your views or judgement, I am just suggesting you might try the finished product rather than the raw materials...

WCA.........as said before it's difficult for me to explain,i think a modern car just does it not for me.
ECU,injectors,no carburettors,katalysator and traction control,too many warning lights and several sound warnings(forgot the seat belt,door is not locked,abs is not on,possible ice on the road....ping,ping,ping)makes my cranky and thinking the car manufacturers think todays drivers are total idiots.
It is not only about the z3,it's the general feeling i have about modern cars.
At work i do a lot of maintenance on trucks and light commercial vehicles,most of the problems are electrikety related.
Plug in the computer and it tells you what's wrong...........NOT!
In case of a truck with air suspension failure the computer had no less as 47 possibilaties to check.......after an hour i found a broken switch wich te computer had not mentioned.
Oh well,i am curious to see the SWB developing and hope everyone who builds one is happy with it.........

Case in point - just picked my Micra up from the dealer as the ABS light wouldn't go out. Bill for plugging in a diagnostic box to reset it? £96.00 :(

I think the 'enthusiast' owner is going to have to add one of these diagnostic boxes to their tool kit.

I have had to endure a variety of warning lights, some of which go away, some don't. I have been looking at the diagnostic units Machine Mart sell but I don't know what features I need, so am reluctant to invest until I understand more about it.

Around here it costs £35 for a basic diagnostic session. I have had to get two done up to now, one more and it would have cost the same as a basic diagnostic unit...

Buy a z3 shell with suspension strip all the crap out and fit a basic engine .. Older bmw 6 with no gadgets off you go ?

That could be a minefield! As I understand it when an MOT Tester inputs the VIN for a vehicle he is testing it lists the relevant 'junk' applicable to the test and expects it to be present. Again as I understand it even if stupid items like headlamp washers were factory fitted the now have to be present and working for the MOT. It really is getting out of hand but these are the rules we get from our masters who know best.

How are you going to meet the emission standards of a later car with an early engine which doesn't have all the 'junk' to keep the emissions in check? Cars need all this 'junk' to meet emission standards and other important requirements.

I bought my "C110 Creator" scanner on eBay for £36 with an adaptor for the underbonnet round plug for another £5. Not tried it on the standard socket under the dashboard yet.
Just used it to read and clear codes.

***Now £37.95 ***

Didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest. It is just a lot of the points you make don't apply to the Z3.

The only warning buzzer I am aware of is for when you leave your head lights on. It is dis-connectable.

Headlight washers only required when factory fitted to xenon head lights.

There is a lot of bullshit spread by people comfortable with a spanner but scared of a screwdriver.

It is like technology racism.

Can you cope with an alternator instead of a generator?

I do understand where you are coming from but don't bury yourself in some weird past that never really existed. I can remember the 'fun' we had chasing down faults in Dads 504 where the indicators wouldn't work if the head lights were on.

Some people post on the internet complaining about modern technology without feeling any sense of irony.

I had thought about the route 'Redratbike' suggested as then you could fit the engine and box of your choice and the dashboard and instruments could be assembled from scratch rather than modifying the original loom.
Emissions are based on the age of the engine so if you can prove the engine is e.g. pre-cat then you don't need one.

WCA, I am sorry if my post came over as a fierce reaction, that was NOT my intention. I was simply pointing out that retro fitting an old engine in a more modern car simply to disable the electronic gismos could be a risky exercise, given my understanding of the requirements of the MOT. I don't know if there is a mechanism for the tester to over-ride the requirement for fitment of headlamp wiper-washers if you remove the xenon head lights and fit halogen. I don't think so, I think the principle is you can upgrade but not downgrade.

I have no doubt that the many of most exotic features in todays cars will be common place and standard fitment eventually. Just like disk brakes and front wheel drive have become, Alvis were I believe the first manufacturer to produce a production FWD car in 1928, http://www.alvisregister.co.uk/vintage/fwd/ but the popularity then was limited, due to it's 'novel' nature. According to K.R. Day Alvis stopped production of the FWD because of adverse publicity about a couple of fatal crashes which were probably wrongly attributed to the FWD aspect of the car, but had an adverse effect on sales. So the fear of new technology is nothing new. It probably tempers the manufacturers ambitions.

How would you feel about steering a car by wire? It could be incorporated in cars right now and it has been contemplated by major manufacturers but they have held back because of public reaction, yet modern aircraft are flown completely 'by wire', most people fly without giving it a second thought. What happens if the battery goes flat for whatever reason...

I think René is concerned about making a car he is comfortable with and I don't see a problem with that. Eventually we will all come to terms with cars being completely controlled by electronics, but until then some of us find them intimidating because we are not completely familiar with the intangible. I have been reading with interest a thread on this forum about trying to coax a BMW engine to operate properly outside it's original chassis. It seems it needs many of the components from the parent car to be present even when they are not strictly part of the engine management process. Circumventing this is causing difficulty even for highly experienced software experts.

Eee, modern technology isn't what it used to be...

Rene, I understand exactly where you are coming from, and find myself agreeing with a lot of what you say.

My everyday car is 20 years old, and really is still too "modern" for me, as it has an ECU and some sensors.

What we both like are the simplicity of a Morris Minor or a Ford Capri, and cars like that which have no sensors, the engine is simple, everything on it is d.i.y. adjustable and fixable at the roadside, right?

Unfortunately, people that like modern cars will rarely be able to see your point of view by default!

Perhaps if you can find an older, simple car, and uprate the suspension and engine a bit, you may find what you are happy with. Keep us posted!

You know that feeling when you wake up and remember that lunch yesterday started with a bottle of red wine and you didn't go back to work...

...alcohol may have affected my previous postings. Sorry if I upset anyone. ��

Scottie you just understand what i mean to say.
Last year the '62 did'nt start,i sanded the points and till today it starts like new.
If my wife's Focus doesn't start we have a problem.........there are no points to sand and the electronic ignition probably has to be replaced......costs?
If one of my cars breakes down on the roadside 90% of the time i can repair it with a hammer and some chewing gum,with eny modern car you need a very long extension cord to power the computer for a diagnostic session.
As stated to put an older engine into a z3........in the Netherlands this is not allowed with a rebody.You are allowed to chanche the engine to another bigger engine if you keep the rest of the car stock.Also emissions are an issue,the car need to reach the same emission as the year of the stock car.
Now i am gonna take a drive in the '48 ford...........

I believe a modern reliable car with a classic appearance to be the ultimate.As kit builder and semi-mechanic, you can bring at least the most important parts with you in the car, like ECU/MAP etc. There are also universal diagnosis testers,, I have a program for my Renault on a laptop, to detect errors, so I can do a check on the road.
I have built-in a 1400cc in the R4, injection engine of a Super 5 and drives perfectly and well arranged. ..
A very classic car or kitcar with low maintenance and problems and little costs is of course best.
http://i60.tinypic.com/2f0dhjm.jpg

Love the mecanic , who comes with the car too

Rene, in England a couple of years ago, one of the big petrol retailers had a bad batch of fuel out on the market, there was some chemical contamination, it was only like 2 parts per million, but thousands of modern cars broke down and went into "limp-home-mode"

The top of the range cars cost two thousand pounds to "repair the damaged engine", while the cheaper ones cost several hundred pounds for the same bullshit.

It made the national news headlines.

The garages and dealers really cleaned up big-time.

Whereas all the Capri's, Morris Minors, Triumphs and other older cars just soldiered on and never missed a beat, as they had no stupid sensors.

You could have peed in the fuel tank and made no difference.

It was this demonstration that finally finished me for modern cars I'm afraid.

I am still kind of looking for the perfect car, as modern as it gets, with an old re-built engine, but without the stupid sensors.

That sort of car would also come free of all the latest Euro-bullshit M.o.t. regulations that have to be complied with.

Well.........i think i am a sort of caveman regarding cars......
So Jeffry you carry a laptop with you when you drive your car?.....shit,i don't have a laptop,not even a modern mobile phone.
I have an 12 year old mobile from work,can't even take pictures with it.
I don't own a mobile as i use the one from the boss.......
Some say i am a neanderthal regarding phones,social media,cars and bikes..............they could be right...........i like it this way.

I guess it is an age thing. When you started working on cars and the like.

If you take the seat belt issue you raised as a problem coming in in 1972, that is 43 years ago.

43 year is quite a long time to learn and adapt.

They used to make cars out of wood and canvas so you could repair them easily (or because that was the best they had) and when that was replaced with steel you needed new tools and learn techniques to fix the new panels.

I appreciate that you can sand your points to fix the car but saying that you have a car where the points rust up and you have to sand them to get the car working is a better situation that a car that a car that doesn't have the problem seems strange.

Having said that I am sure in 43 years I will be complaining about the nano-tech bodywork that auto restores to the factory settings despite my best efforts to customise it

For what it is worth, I do appreciate simple too. One of my mountain bikes is fully rigid and fixed gear which is as simple as it gets...

...but I also have a full suspension bike with 30 gears for when I want it

I am certainly convinced todays car are much better as 40 years ago,500.000km is'nt rare anymore,cars are saver,more economic,easier to drive,powered steering,powered braking and powered everything.
It tells you how to drive,put on the seatbelt,the doors are closed,the boot is closed,you need service and even if your zipper is closed.
Well.....i am only a little disabled but i can still wind the window up with a cranck,put some pressure to the braking pedal,turn the unpowered steering wheel and i am happy with it.
When i mentioned the points it was just as an example to say how easy such a problem can be solved......and can be repared.
As i found out many times electrical components on todays cars cannot be repared but must be replaced.
Last year my missus Focus drove 20.000km,did'nt brake down but did cost almost 780 euro for only service turns(oil chanche etc.)
The two Anglia's drove also 20.000km,10.000 each.......no breakdown and about 25 euro's each for oil etc.
Oh well,we never be on one line with this discussion,i am just having fun in my old cars and will be driving them with a smile......except when driving the hotrod along the mall..........then i have to look cool:icon_cool:

I agree with a lot of what you say, don't worry :-)

I think the cost differences with Oil and Services must be down to you CHOOSING to use a garage for the Focus and doing the others yourself.

When the Anglia's were new, and if you used the local Ford garage, they would have been just as expensive, probably more as they need doing more often.

I would be surprised if your Focus needed more than one service in 20,000KM. In the UK it is Oil and Filters at 12,500 miles (just over 20,000KM). 760Euro seems a LOT, a quick Google shows the UK service cost is approx £235 (324 euro) for a major service and just £129 for an interim.

I do understand about replacing components rather than repairing them but I think people (not just you) overstate the difference.

You might be able to repair a part 5 times every 10,000 miles before having to replace it compare to the modern electronic versions that doesn't break for 70,000 miles and then needs replacing.

I really agree about the bings and bongs of safety warnings though. I cannot put my shopping on the passengers seat in my Merc without being Beeped every 15 seconds to put the seat belt on. Grrr

Still, I managed to disable all that in the Z300 so get the modern pleasure of driving the car instead of fixing it with the old fashioned freedom of warning lights and chimes

The service on the focus included M.O.T.,full service,wipers and some other bits and bobs..........and yes very expansive.
Because the car is still in guarantee period it had to get the service at the dealer(Official Ford dealer)
Official dealerships are always expansive and i always feel ripped off as an independent garage are much cheaper for the same thing.
I agree the Anglia's when new had probably cost the same at service........but now they are not new enymore and i can do the sertvice myself because it is a simple job to do..........no diagnostics or electrickety involved.
If i was sensible i must get rid of these old junk as a modern car is much cheaper to drive,the focus uses 1 litre 18km,the hotrod uses 1 litre every 8km.........but hey,good for the economy and tax.........grrrrr.

I feel your pain

I buy cars that were expensive when they were new and smile at the depreciation the previous owner sufferred

I recently sold my CL600 which was £124,000 new including the options.
I paid £12,000 for it with 45,000 miles
I drove it for 5 years with independent servicing as it was out of warranty.
Approx £250 for a service at variable intervals - the computer told me when I needed a service - between 12,000 and 16,000 miles
I sold it for £2000 with 95,000 miles

Reasonably cheap motoring for such a car although the number of buttons, switches, computers and options would probably drive you mad.

Anyway, I am glad we can share our understandings even if we don't agree on the details. If we all agreed on everything the world would be a boring place.

i reckon the real problem was you probably tried the 1.9 engine!

:-)

Nope,2.8 six.
The whole driving expirience felt wrong,did'nt like it at all.
Nothing to do with that particular car because it was a good example,all was functional and working fine,good roadhandling,superb brakes.........
Can't help myself.........i am a neanderthal carwise.
Yesterday i drove a brandnew Merc with a lot of letters on the bootlid belongs to my boss.......also did'nt like it.

I felt the same way about the Audi A8 I owned for a while

The most 'adequate' car in the world. i don't mind a few faults in a car if it has some bits that excite me, the Audi was just adequate in everything.

When I make love to a woman I don't car if she feels great or disappointed but I think if she just said "Thanks, that was adequate" I would be upset :-)

Modern verses Old
 

A fascinating debate which appeals to me as I have the same dilemma.

A Z3 250swb will cost about the same as a tvr 300Om / Tamar to procure

TVR cheap to run / service, possibly Tax Free, great fun to drive, not many around.

The issue for me is that the Tribute Z3 SWB is new, I like the shape, and I could use it every day, my wife could drive it and there are some modern bits like central locking and air conditioning, ABS etc which make it more practical to own.

Maybe the answer is to buy one of each, still less than the cost of a new focus.:argue::argue:

I quite enjoyed your rant, though didn't understand much of it:

Sort of got that one unless you were being literal in which case a spade might be better.

no idea about that one

Lost me there

Thought that was quite clever :smile:

The spanner / screwdriver refers to people who are okay with mechanical stuff but scared of electrical stuff. Electric stuff relies more on screwdrivers than spanners.

Not to sure about the rest although I too like the irony bit

Thanks for the tolerance. :-)

or find a seperate type chassis with v5 that is the same as z3 wheel base or closer to the ferrari ?
fit the mounting points for the rear and z3 scuttle windscreen for the doors and roof to line up with ,get chris to mould the longer bonnet if thats the way you have gone then build around that for a more realisitc replica?
nice alfa v6 in rear wheel drive would be good?

I can sympathise with the 'modern cars are too complicated' standpoint, this, my only breakdown in the Spyder to date -

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...psb747b8c9.jpg

was caused by this -

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...psef032d17.jpg

a modern, multi spark ignition module I'd added for extra reliability, failing under full power. :(

I've got to say though that changes can be made to the donor that will transform its 'feel' as a car. Tall sidewall tyres, different exhaust, removal of soundproofing etc. My Spyder doesn't feel anything like a Triumph Vitesse to drive now it's wearing its party frock. :)

was caused by this

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...psqoddssoa.jpg

(not fitting the right part correctly) :-)



Okay - that was my last cheap jibe. I promise to leave this thread alone ;-)

[QUOTE=Mister Towed;64674]I can sympathise with the 'modern cars are too complicated' standpoint, this, my only breakdown in the Spyder to date -

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...psb747b8c9.jpg

I'm impressed you've got room for cones in your car , I've only got a fold away triangle in my modern Z3 :smile:

Andy

Ofcourse he has room for cones..........he does'nt wear a flatcap or flying helmet so...........