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-   -   New SAMMIO 3/4 Wheeler (http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5707)

micky1mo 1st December 2015 19:47

New SAMMIO 3/4 Wheeler
 
Unfortunately I have to run this as a business so I am all ways looking at what sells.:ballchain:
When Morgan launched their 3 wheeler and when ever they re-model their 3 wheeler the price of any other 3 wheeler goes up.
The humble 2 CV based LOMAX kit car of which over 2,00 where built has almost doubled in price in a few years.
The LOMAX moulds have long since disappeared and have become unavailable.
But due to demand the cunning Belgians made a very close "copy" called the Le PATRON which sell at about £3,500 a unit :icon_rolleyes:

I have long been looking for a substitute 3 wheeler and now I think I have one :eusa_clap:

After some time and effort :geek: I have managed to get hold of the moulds to the BRA LEIGHTON 3 wheeler which looks like this

http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8c4x9hdk.jpg
http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/...ps63ard7wv.jpg
http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/...psz2gbbfpn.jpg
http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9ehbhiwa.jpg


The original car used a space frame chassis LOCOST style, but although I also have the original chassis jigs I am going to convert the body to fit a standard 2CV chassis.
The overall design will stay much the same but I have several new ideas still in the making, they include.
Incorporate the Lomax bulkhead and possibly the Lomax shuttle panel, thus giving some shape to the top shuttle and making use of the tried and tested shape of the bulkhead.
Binning the original 2CV front suspension set-up in favour of coil-overs
A new ideas for the 3 wheeler version is to use an independent rear sub-frame using the original 2CV hub and a coil over shock which mean the chassis rear outriggers remains un-cut so NO MSVA :D

There will be both a 3 and 4 wheeler version just like the LOMAX. :pray2:

Of course it's all under R&D at the moment, I am waiting for a body to be laid-up and get a suitable chassis but it's defiantly happening so ideas or comment will be viewed very seriously.

I'LL KEEP YOU ALL POSTED :pop2:

Paul L 1st December 2015 20:59

I quite like 3 wheelers, especially with the boat tail rear ends. :cool:

I am sure there is a market for car with a "simple" build approach.

As whilst the Pembleton looks amazing, it is a very high skilled build.

Either way, good luck, Paul. :)

reneanglia 1st December 2015 21:53

It seems as a good idea,but perhaps you should keep the original 2cv suspension and offer the coilover as an option.
In the Netherlans these cars are popular because of the use of original 2cv parts including chassis and drivetrain.
Overhere a car is made of 3 parts,chassis,body and engine and to get a license on a kitcar you can only chanche 1 of these parts otherwise you can't get it thru our biva.
If you offer it as a bodykit i can see potential for you to export the kits.
René

Mister Towed 2nd December 2015 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by reneanglia (Post 73088)
It seems as a good idea,but perhaps you should keep the original 2cv suspension and offer the coilover as an option.
.
René

Seconded, bog-standard 2cv and Dyane 6 suspension and brakes are amazing and will gain additional benefit from the weight reduction.

Although the 602cc boxer twin is smooth and full of character (with minimal baffling in the exhaust), it could do with a boost in power, so I'd recommend offering an engine conversion kit as an option instead of the coil-overs. I'd start with Sparrow Engineering - http://www.sparrowautomotive.co.uk/citroen2cvbmw.html

I've always liked reverse tricycle cars myself so I'm watching this with interest.

rattler 2nd December 2015 09:14

Hi mike great idea just sold one of your 2cv specials I would be interested in your new venture just can't bring myself to sell my miglia at moment I'm rebuilding a Bugatti at the moment looking forward to your progress rattler

reneanglia 2nd December 2015 11:22

[QUOTE=micky1mo;
But due to demand the cunning Belgians made a very close "copy" called the Le PATRON which sell at about £3,500 a unit :icon_rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]

Sorry but the le Patron is a dutch car,not belgian:wave:

micky1mo 2nd December 2015 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by reneanglia (Post 73096)
Sorry but the le Patron is a dutch car,not belgian:wave:

Oops!!!
But it was an honest mistake :eusa_boohoo:

I also got the cost wrong!! It 2,695eur for the just basic body kit.

micky1mo 2nd December 2015 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by reneanglia (Post 73088)
Overhere a car is made of 3 parts,chassis,body and engine and to get a license on a kitcar you can only chanche 1 of these parts otherwise you can't get it thru our biva.

René

Thanks for the info but are you saying the chassis is a rolling chassis ie; suspension, steering ect?
If the original rear axle is altered to a single wheel (Lomax style) would this still pass you test?

reneanglia 2nd December 2015 20:28

There is a possibilaty but as far as i know only with the rear suspension arms facing inwards and on both arms a wheel,not with a single arm/wheel.
Not sure about this but there are lomax an le patron 3 wheelers passed the test but as far as i know with 2 wheels in the middle of the rear.

Mister Towed 3rd December 2015 07:23

As I recall, the original Lomax '3' wheeler design reversed both of the rear suspension arms, leaving two wheels at the back but very close together. The designer hoped that it would qualify for the motorcycle road tax fee of £30 per year as opposed to the motor car road tax fee, which was about £120 (quite a lot of money in the mid 80's, equivalent to about £500 today in what it could buy). In reality, the two wheels at the back were too far apart for it to claim three wheeler status, hence the redesign with a single, central wheel aft.

Not sure how the suspension modification at the back would affect IVA, but my gut feeling is that you won't have altered the chassis, just modified the suspension, so it should be exempt. Just don't quote me on that...

Roadster 3rd December 2015 09:53

I looked into 3 wheel design
I think it has huge potential for future transport.

Keeping the 2 rear wheels with the rear arms switched to bring them inboard gives the best foot print for stable handling.

With the body that the above trike has it would not be visible.

micky1mo 3rd December 2015 18:02

Sorry to disappoint you all but the suspension arms in the 2CV will not "just turn around" as the inner and outer swinging arm bearings are different sizes.

The get a single rear wheel the arm has to be cut just behind the axle mounting, turned 180 degs, then re-welded. It also has the be cut about 40mm behind the wheel hub and an extended piece about 5" long welded in place to bring the wheel in the middle of the chassis. I know because have built a jig to do just that.
http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/...ps461603fe.jpg

http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2e03d06a.jpg

http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/...psb63ff051.jpg


The only problem is to enable the single wheel/arm to move up and down one of the rear out-riggers needs to be cut off and in some cases DVLA says this is an altered chassis. :icon_rolleyes: .

http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/...psd8dfa0d6.jpg

To get around this I made a single wheel arrangement using the original hub and a coil-over shock on a motorcycle style swinging arm.

http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3ee02828.jpg

Just a case of un-bolting one unit and replacing it with the new one so no chassis modifications.

http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2fcbca58.jpg

this is the same mod I'll use for the new 3 wheeler.:eusa_clap:

Paul L 4th December 2015 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by micky1mo (Post 73146)
...Just a case of un-bolting one unit and replacing it with the new one so no chassis modifications...

It has to be a good idea if it will keep the DVLA happy and avoid the need for a builder to start cutting and welding things. :cool:

Roadster 4th December 2015 16:39

What size rear wheel and tyre are you designing the rear swing arm around?

Mister Towed 4th December 2015 17:17

Hmm, neat solution. I wonder if you could get a whole 'bike back end in there, motor and all?

reneanglia 4th December 2015 17:33

I think cutting off the outriggers does'nt matter as it are no structural pieces of the chassis,the lomax and le Patron has also cut off the outriggers and there was no problem,even not overhere.........
With the Cordite and miglia's are the outriggers also cut off as i recall?
By using the original suspension arm in the one wheel configuration you need a torsion bar that's connected to the other suspension arm so the suspension of both arms is used.
http://imagehosting.rodsnsods.co.uk/...1cf509377a.jpg

micky1mo 4th December 2015 19:02

Believe me cutting off an outrigger did lead to trouble with the DVLA.
Your right SAMMIO's do cut the rear out riggers down but they left them sticking out of the back of the car until after the VIC/DVLA inspection just in case there's trouble.
That said the DVLA seem to be letting this mod through now.

Although some 3 wheeler builders in the passed have linked the rear suspension arms together there is really no need.
Both the Lomax and the Le Patron just use a single suspension arm with it's single spring and they have been doing this for years without any issues.

You have to remember the rear 2CV springs were designed to carry the combined weight of the car body, 2 rear passengers and boot luggage where as the 3 wheelers have only to carry less than half the body weight, no rear passengers and minimal luggage so a single spring copes well with the smaller load.

One recommended mod is to fit a gas shock.

Why fix some thing that's not broken :wink:

micky1mo 4th December 2015 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roadster (Post 73195)
What size rear wheel and tyre are you designing the rear swing arm around?

I used the standard 2CV 15" wheel using the KISS principle :wink:

micky1mo 4th December 2015 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Towed (Post 73198)
Hmm, neat solution. I wonder if you could get a whole 'bike back end in there, motor and all?

Sure, but only after the inspection/paperwork is completed :whistle::whistle:

reneanglia 4th December 2015 20:20

MIckey the torsion bar is not for suspension needs but to reduce bodyroll.
There is no need for but it improves road handling so i am told by Wim van den Berg the constructor of the le Patron 3 wheeler.
He told also this configuration is the only way the 3 wheeler is getting thru the dutch dvla.
It is not important to you,only if you want to export to Holland but i suggest you only offer it in kit package as body reay to bolt on a 2cv chassis.

micky1mo 5th December 2015 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by reneanglia (Post 73209)
MIckey the torsion bar is not for suspension needs but to reduce bodyroll.
.
.

Ah, so what your talking about is what we call an ARB (anti-roll bar) :icon_smile:
And you right a 3 wheeler without an ARB is very unstable when cornering.

Mister Towed 5th December 2015 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by micky1mo (Post 73228)
Ah, so what your talking about is what we call an ARB (anti-roll bar) :icon_smile:
And you right a 3 wheeler without an ARB is very unstable when cornering.

That's true of three-wheelers with one wheel at the front -

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...psbkqtolq3.jpg

Bit of an extreme example, I know, but the reverse trike is actually very inherently stable and they handle really well without castors.

Roadster 5th December 2015 19:37

Ideally the rear tyre's contact patch should equal the total contact area for the front 2 tyres to prevent the rear end from breaking loose mid corner

oxford1360 6th December 2015 16:55

I think there may be a little more to it than that. The car's CoG, fore and aft weight distribution and overall weight amongst a number of other things will determine how much work the rear tyre is being asked to do......and you might consider how much you want the rear to contribute when applying the brakes.

Roadster 6th December 2015 17:10

Yes you are right Oxford there are !00's of pages written on the subject safe handling of a three wheeler broken down into the various configurations but I was trying to address the one aspect that could be considered at this time as Micky is deciding on the rear arm set up

mas123mas 11th December 2015 02:53

BRA for sale on ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRA-Kit-Ca...-/151886347576

oxford1360 11th December 2015 07:37

Another one of those "90% completed" projects that has 80% of the work still to do.

micky1mo 11th December 2015 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by mas123mas (Post 73308)

That's a BRA CV3, built using the original 2CV chassis and Lomax style rear suspension.
Body and bonnet are Aluminium sheet with fiberglass boot lid, scuttle panel and engine cowl.
It's all held together around a steel cage frame SAMMIO style.

Here's one I made earlier :biggrin1:

http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3af67881.jpg

I painted the fiberglass panels and front mudguards sky blue, then sold it to a guy in Kent (sorry no final finished photo).:icon_redface:

Paul L 11th December 2015 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by oxford1360 (Post 73310)
Another one of those "90% completed" projects that has 80% of the work still to do.

Plus the "you can just use the V5 from another 2CV" may not be how the DVLA will see it either. :eek:

Mistrale 12th December 2015 09:38

Links to a review of the original Leighton : http://www.bra-cars.com/Leighton_-_A...both__web_.pdf

I can see the attraction of retaining the 2cv chassis, but the effort/cost taken to find/restore one (to retain the V5...) may well be less than that to use the bespoke chassis, particularly given the handling benefits of the Leighton suspension mods.

Mister Towed 12th December 2015 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mistrale (Post 73345)
Links to a review of the original Leighton : http://www.bra-cars.com/Leighton_-_A...both__web_.pdf

I can see the attraction of retaining the 2cv chassis, but the effort/cost taken to find/restore one (to retain the V5...) may well be less than that to use the bespoke chassis, particularly given the handling benefits of the Leighton suspension mods.

£400 new, and galvanised to boot -

http://www.2cvcity.co.uk/the-2cv-cit...d-chassis.html

As for retaining the V5, it's a standard, replacement chassis so under DVLA rules the V5 can be retained if one of these is used to replace an original chassis that's rusted so badly that there's actually nothing left of it at all. Trigger's hammer and all that.

Mistrale 12th December 2015 13:47

I didn't realise new chassis were that cheap. But not much cheaper than a bespoke one, particularly given the handling benefits of the bespoke chassis.

Motorbike IVA is also much simpler and cheaper than car IVA...

Paul L 12th December 2015 15:57

Mr T - Nice link to the replacement 2CV chassis. :cool:

And just for clarity...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Towed (Post 73350)
... As for retaining the V5, it's a standard, replacement chassis so under DVLA rules the V5 can be retained if one of these is used to replace an original chassis that's rusted so badly that there's actually nothing left of it at all...

The key difference between what Mr T is saying above and my reply in Post #29 is that the Ebay seller was proposing that you keep the non standard chassis in the BRA he was selling and use the V5 from a different 2CV donor car to get the BRA on the road, which is not allowed.

Cheers, Paul. :)

micky1mo 12th December 2015 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mistrale (Post 73354)
I didn't realise new chassis were that cheap. But not much cheaper than a bespoke one, particularly given the handling benefits of the bespoke chassis.

Motorbike IVA is also much simpler and cheaper than car IVA...

I would cost twice as much to build a bespoke chassis than to buy a standard replacement chassis.
Plus the bespoke chassis would be heaver, un-galvanized and produce no significant improvement in the handling, I know as I have built both examples :nono:

.http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/...pse25aed01.jpg

The IVA or MSVA require a lot of extra money, time and effort which will put prospective builder's off :nono:

All ways remember the No1 rule when building a kit car KISS, becaus it works :icon_smile:

Triumph Special 12th December 2015 18:36

A good idea this, I wish you every success with it.

micky1mo 17th December 2015 20:24

Just spoke to Chris at Tribute and the "Leighton" moulds are now being laid-up so I'll be collecting a body next week . :whoo:

Only wish the new Alpha was so near :cry:

Barber 13th May 2018 07:55

A Great Initiative
 
Where did this project get to? My first ever car was bought in Belgium, the basic 2CV with bench front seat and a roll back roof (no fancy levers to do it from inside). It was that, or the Llada, which was even cheaper. I know it is a bit premature, with Chris at Tribute about to start my Z3gato. However, I am thinking about a project to start later next year.

Currently it would be a Lambretta LI150 refurbishment from wreck to refurbished wreck. (Seriously, as a 16/17 year old, I did just about everything mechanical on a scooter. This was way, way back in the late 60s.)

But a 2CV based 3 wheeler, wahay! :eusa_dance:

micky1mo 13th May 2018 08:57

The LEIGHTON project/moulds were sold on is it was proving to expensive and to time consuming to continue with. :eusa_shifty:

I do still have a new 2CV galvanized chassis, engine gearbox, axles and original fiberglass LEIGHTON body, bonnet and boot if your interested?:smile:

Barber 13th May 2018 09:04

Is that the model currently available on internet for quite a high price? If so, the total bundle would be too much for SWMBO to stomach after the Z3gato. However, I may come back to you later.
Cheers

micky1mo 13th May 2018 11:48

£700 gets you the lot!!:icon_lol:


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