Cromodora CD 1 specifications
 

What is the spec of original Cromodora CD1 Ferrari Dino wheels? I have a set and measured them years ago but can't remember. This from the Ferrarichat website suggests their offset is 4 inches (approx 100mm)! But this is nuts and based on physical measurements John Corbani took 12 years ago. He is referring to the distance fro the edge of the wheel to the mounting face of the wheel but isn't offset the distance from the centreline of the wheel to the mounting face?:
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/th...offsets.69024/
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/at...l2-jpg.197550/

a quick look at the diagrams in the Ferrari 246 workshop manual and a CD1 blueprint in an Italian magazine article suggests that the offset isn't zero and is more like minus 14mm to minus 11 (or the 3/4" Corbani suggested) :

Attachment 4768

Attachment 4769

Attachment 4770

I know Dehavilland suggested they would sell zero offset "CD1" replicas in 15x7" but the photo they show of a wheel on their Facebook page doesn't look that much like a CD1!

chassis
 

Hi ross

I was told the cromadora wheels as fitted to the dino were a 0mm offset and I have based everything around this. Now I know the deon used an 8mm offset and I assume this was to bring the wheels slightly inwards so I'm assuming this would be minus - offset? I guess some net searching would either correct me or put me straight!
Now I have a set of reproduction cromadora's in the attic so will measure these later today. (guess should have measured earlier!!).
The first dino 206 bodyshell was built to fit on a lotus europa chassis I beleive-thread elsewhere on here-and may have been stretched to fit. Jhclassic' Jon Hurst then saw an opportunity in the market the came up with a chassis to fit the body shell.This is where I think the track has grown. Fitting the chassis to the body and not the other way round.

ian

chassis
 

Hi all

I've measured my cromadora wheels and they have a 5mm off set.See photos.
The mounting face of the wheel is 5mm off the centre of the wheel towards the outer face meaning the wheel track becomes smaller.
I now know this is a plus + offset as it states it on the wheel box-doh!!:redface:

ian

If you take a look at the first photo you will see from the mounting face to the outside face of the wheel the measurement is 107mm. The wheel overall is 204mm. So centre of wheel is half this size 102mm minus the 107mm gives us a size of plus 5mm.

ian

The wheels look fantastic Ian! Where'd you get them and did you have the PCD & bore custom drilled for your hubs? Dinos were originally 5x108 PCD too but the centre bore was about 58-59mm if I recall correctly. Are your hubs Ford?
cheers
Ross (in NZ)

chassis
 

Hi ross

The wheels came from superformance around 3/4 years ago and at that time were £545 a set plus vat. They have gone up recently as new owners have taken over and I think they are nearer £800 plus vat now. PLus vat at that time had been reduced temporarily to 15%. It's 20% here now.
The bore is the standard bore they came with and I need to machine new spacers up to fit the wheels to the new hubs. At the moment the spacers are for the lancia beta/fiat 124 hubs.

ian

chassis
 

hi ross

couple more photo's for you.
first is the re machined hubs and brembo dis'c
second is the newly made brake carrier
third fitted to hub with wilwood caliper
fourth is when I trail fitted the cromadora.

ian

That's looking amazing Ian. So what hubs and discs have you used? What machining did the hubs need?

The 4” is backspace - hub mounting face to rim. Offset as you say is hub mounting face to wheel centreline.

original offset - 14x6.5 Cromodora CD1
 

Well, my curiosity is piqued now so I measured one of my original Dino wheels - as fitted new on a 1971 Dino 246:
it is 193mm wide ( centre line therefore @ 96.5mm)
mounting face of the wheel is 114mm deep
offset is therefore 17.5mm
(as measured with my daughter's plastic ruler, LOL)

Attachment 4780

Attachment 4781

Attachment 4782

Attachment 4783

Attachment 4786
I should add that the distance from the mark on the ruler ( 196mm ) to the base of the ruler sitting on the wheel mounting face is 114mm
cheers
Ross

chassis
 

Hi Ross

I had some steel spacers cnc machined up to press fit on to the fiat 124 hubs from the back. The back face was machined parallel to the front face. The outside diameter was untouched and used for accuracy.
With the spacers pressed on to the fiat hubs new 5x108 holes were bored and new studs pressed in from the back. The steel spacers were also machined on there outside diameter for the new brembo disc's. The spacers sit approximately 0.25mm down from the hub face again using this original face for accuracy when bolting the wheels up.The action of the wheels being bolted on eliminates any chance of anything coming loose!!
To mount the brakes I first tried to use the original fiat caliper mount and machined an aluminium adaptor to mount my wilwood calipers onto but it was to baulky and also clashed with the steering arm on full lock.So I designed my own based around the fiat ones had them laser cut and I welded them up.
The original fiat hubs had a taper on the wheel mount boss so this was squared up so I could turn up my spacers.

chassis
 

Hi Ross

The rears were done in a similar way but are bolted from the front as there was not enough room to fit them from the back.
Again cnc machined up but this time the were surface ground from the machine face for accuracy. As I couldn't press these on I've used the hub nut to hold them on and again used the wheel bolts. The brakes have been mounted using an adaptor mounted to the original brake mounts.
I'm not happy with the handbrake assembly so I'm looking at removing this and using a pair of brembo units.

chassis
 

hi ross

the rear brakes were a pain as I've tried to incorporate the hand brake.
I've made new mounts and I've had to reshape the strut brackets and also weld the bolt in to become a captive thread to prevent it clashing with the cable mount,but I've managed to get it all in.
Will look at brembo handbrake calipers though.

chassis
 

Hi

Forgot to add-my wheels are larger than the standard 14 inch on the 246 dino
at 16 inch as I wanted a larger choice of tyre. And these wheels are usually supplied by superformance to be used in conjunction with the 246 big brake upgrade kit. This may be the reason behind the different offset.

ian

Wow, impressive engineering! Thanks for explaining Ian.

chassis
 

It took 2 years!! And I was lucky enough to have two spare front hubs to practice on as well.

ian

Spares - always useful. I was about to pick up a couple of MX5 spindles & hubs to see if the Alfa 166 rear hub could be adapted to them - since it is perfect for my cromodora cd1s.

chassis
 

hi ross

I think I read somewhere where someone used a pair of toyota mr2 rear handbrake calipers and swapped the hub and bearings for alfa hubs when they fitted an alfa v6 engine and box to a deon-but can't remember where!

ian

Hi Ian, going back to the comments about using a rear macpherson strut-type suspension (or a front macpherson - used in the rear of your chassis). I just watched a couple of videos that helped me understand some stuff: Agent 47 racing's video explains that lack of camber control is one area where macpherson is not as good as double wishbone. The strut acts essentially as a sliding joint and the camber doesn't change much. The big angle on front macpherson struts is to do with scrub radius - and this is not an issue on the rear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftf3KYHTOYU

/Drive have a series of videos explaining geometry. In episode 1 he notes that lopping 2.5" off a strut has a big effect on geometry and will be "pretty messed up".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0oi9SHJPvg

Camber control for grip, stability and braking is one thing but the other, as Ozijim points out in his post, is keeping the roll centre under control - if it changes drastically the car could get suddenly out of balance.
cheers
Ross

chassis
 

Hi Ross

I've watched endless videos like these. My idea is to keep the front suspension pivot /mount points the same as the deon just reducing the centre chassis distance by the required amount. The deon uses a mini rack with extensions screwed on to the steering arms which are used to eliminate bump steer. I can screw these further onto the threaded steering arms to keep the set up the same.I intend to use a billet upright designed around the fiat 124 upright so kingpin/inclination and camber will be the same as the deon.
It's at the rear where I was looking into using a strut,mainly to give me more room in the engine bay.
I've a spare v6 engine that I'm mating to a toyota mr2 turbo box too and this will be my starting point. Just got to get my adaptor plate machined up and the start with an engine bay.If I can work it with double wishbones I will but my problem here is the engine and box will be 25mm wider overall than the deon v6 set up with the chassis reducing by 40mm (I think) so a 65mm reduction of space overall.

ian

Dave "Bloozeberry" site
 

Hi Ian,
I stumbled across this site with incredible detail. Dave, a retired engineer,has a blog detailing his project to put an alloy V8 into a Fiero Ferrari F355 replica. The level of engineering and detail, including converting suspension systems is amazing.

https://bloozeown.weebly.com/rear-end/previous/2

https://bloozeown.weebly.com/uploads...-rear-view.jpg

converting strut-type suspension to multi-link:
https://bloozeown.weebly.com/uploads...66200_orig.jpg

cheers
Ross

chassis
 

Hi All

One step closer to starting my chassis build. I've just received back from the cnc shop my engine / gearbox adaptor plate. Bit of fettling required for the starter motor and driveshafts to do then hopefully bolt the lot together ready to start on the engine bay.

ian

chassis
 

Hi All

Just an update. I've finished machining my adaptor plate so it now fits on to the Toyota MR2 Turbo gearbox. I've also finished fitting it to the V6 crankcase. Hopefully at the weekend weather permitting I'll get the engine crane out and have a go at bolting the gearbox to the engine.

ian

chassis
 

Hi all

Ford cosworth V6 and toyota mr2 turbo box all bolted up. Next up engine mounts and power unit chassis / cradle.

ian

looking good Ian!

Prova chassis for sale
 

Here's a blast from the past - a Prova (Countach) chassis with Renault UN1 box attached to Rover 3.9V8. Sitting at 1200GBP now. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lamborghi...wAAOSws0JaYg1M
Attachment 4872
square section wishbone arms! and four stud hubs on a Countach

chassis
 

Hi All

With the power unit now built up I've started construction of my chassis. I'm building it in wood first to make sure all is well before I cut any metal!! Basically I've copied the deon chassis dimensions to start with and will adjust it as I go on. I've built it in three bits,front section,middle or cockpit and rear or engine bay.
I'm going to build a flat table and place the chassis on it and start by positioning the engine and then I can work from the engine drive shafts centre line.
Hopefully I'm going to get to measure the 246 shell and original chassis sometime in feb.
Photo 1 and 2 show engine bay frame
Photo 3 is front frame
Photo 4 is the cockpit
The cockpit requires a centre tunnel building in but I need to purchase the 246 tunnel moulding and gearshift moulding to get accurate measurements.

ian

chassis
 

Hi

The centre section still requires a centre tunnel building and also cross bracing for the mounting of seats.The two cross pieces of timber and the diagonal piece seen here are spacers and a cross tie bar to keep the frame square.
Also where the front frame fixes there will be another frame to take the dash/steering mount and door hinges, but I'll leave this until the shell is on.
Front and rear crash structures will be designed to support the front of the car and mount the front rad and bumpers,the rear being used to support the boot floor and rear bumpers. My plan was to have these bolt on.
I intend to have 75 x40mm and 40x40mm box section steel tube.

ian

Can you share the Deon chassis info you are building off of? I'm in the states and looking to get started on a chassis. Looking for a good starting point. I will be using a Ford Duratec V6.

Hi,
I have a Deon and I want to implement on it a Ford 2,5l V6 Duratec. If someone can help me.... Thanks

chassis
 

Hi

What deon do you have? Is it the one with the lancia engine that takes the whole engine/gearbox and subframe? The later one where it bolts in? Or the ford 2.9 v6 option?
Either way you'll need to drop the engine (lancia) or remove through the top (ford engine ) and offer up your new power unit. You'll need to fabricate new engine/gearbox mounts and position the who unit so the drive line stays where is it now-height and position front back.
You'll need a new exhaust system,water and fuel hook ups etc-big job but anythings possible. Good luck.

ian

Hi Ian, any progress on your chassis?
Ross

chassis
 

Hi

Not much progress really. I've mocked up the chassis in wood and found a source for all running gear. I'm trying to persuade my brother to let me borrow the corner of his workshop so I can construct a build table for my chassis. Purchased 400 quids worth of steel box sections, bought the engine mounts. I had been in contact with TTV racing about a flywheel but never heard back.That's up to date-unfortunately my other half wants some decorating done in the house so projects on hold till I've done that:tape2:

Hello,
My car is a Deon, equiped with a 2L Lancia engine.
Thanks for your help.

chassis
 

Hi all

Finally I've picked up my 246 body shell from cascu, before he upsticks and moves lock stock and barrel to france.. Next up is to put the three wooden mock up deon chassis parts together and sit the shell on top to see what's happening. The deon chassis is 1 and a quarter inches wider than the 246 chassis which isn't a lot. I'll see how it fits but the 246 floor is some 8 inches shorter than the deon!!! I know the 246 engine bay is bigger but 8 inches bigger? I'm not sure:ohwell:

Hi Ian
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the 246 is 4 inches longer than the 206 but all the additional length is in the engine bay. This is borne out by my engine and rear boot lids which I think are from CASCU and which I had to cut down by a couple of inches on each to get them to fit my Classic replicas Dino.
As for the other 4 inches, I have compared my rear bulkhead to pictures of the 246, mine looks to be much closer to the vertical than the original, which, assuming that the rear window is in the same place in both, would give an extra few inches of floor space behind the seats.

Neil

chassis
 

Hi all

Finally had a day off from work. So I thought I would sort out my garage and put most of my moulding/panel away for safekeeping. But this got me thinking. Now I know the origins of the 246 cascu body shell and panels and thought about offering them up to the deon 206 shell. Some surprises lads.
1. The engine cover is identical in size/width and length- except 206 has 6 vents.
2. The boot again is exactly the same width but some 70mm longer.
3. The bonnet is exactly the same width and the top and shape at the scuttle is identical. BUT it is 20mm shorter! Is this to compensate for the deon droopy nose? meaning deon bonnet was lengthened?
4. Door skin is different at the A post suggesting the 246 window screen is wider. Body swage line in door skin 2 inches lower than deon and door skin also 15mm longer than deon. Rear profile almost spot on with deon.
Funny comparing the two cars
Ian

chassis
 

few others too

chassis
 

hi all

After a few measurements I've found biggest difference is rear wheel arch position. Almost 4 inches too close to the rear edge of the door. see photos

ian

Wow, some interesting measurements! A couple of points about Deon and CASCU that might explain some differences:
DEON is a mould of a mould of a mould taken from a genuine Ferrari Dino 206 (wheelbase 2280mm) but the position of the wheel arch was altered on the original mould to match the owner's chassis - which was from a Lotus Europa (2311mm).
I believe CASCU's was moulded from a genuine Ferrari Dino 246 (wheelbase 2340mm) 2340-2311=29mm difference.

Some other points: I read recently that the chrome trim over the side glass of the 206 matches the 246 and that windscreens are interchangeable.

http://www.lotuseuropa.org/gallery/D...otus_2_Ferrari

I'm going to measure my front clip from a genuine 246 and post some pictures for comparison.
cheers
Ross