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-   -   Geoff's 250 SWB Replica Build (http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4261)

y cymro 13th July 2014 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribute Automotive (Post 57421)

Wow, that's some progress in 2 days. Being positively critical, that dang windscreen has a lot to answer for! Putting aside the excessive side window flanges, how do you plan to correct the excessively sloping roof and make the door aperture taller to make getting in a little easier? Extending the B/C pillar upwards, or raising the profile of the whole rear, especially the rear haunches?
I'll need flared arches to cover my 10" wheels unless you plan to make the rear wider :smile:

Edit: the jaunty angle of the photograph probably isn't helping the roof.

Mister Towed 13th July 2014 19:00

Do I detect a hint of Microplas Mistral in the side panel?

Can't wait to see you work your magic on this and turn it into a graceful swan. Might even make the journey to Donnington just to see it. :)

Tribute Automotive 13th July 2014 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Towed (Post 57465)
Do I detect a hint of Microplas Mistral in the side panel?

Can't wait to see you work your magic on this and turn it into a graceful swan. Might even make the journey to Donnington just to see it. :)

Just a hint of Mistral!! The Microplas panels are a dead ringer for SWB shape. Kind of makes you wonder if Enzo had one to hand...

See you at Donnington.

Tribute Automotive 13th July 2014 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by y cymro (Post 57456)
Wow, that's some progress in 2 days. Being positively critical, that dang windscreen has a lot to answer for! Putting aside the excessive side window flanges, how do you plan to correct the excessively sloping roof and make the door aperture taller to make getting in a little easier? Extending the B/C pillar upwards, or raising the profile of the whole rear, especially the rear haunches?
I'll need flared arches to cover my 10" wheels unless you plan to make the rear wider :smile:

Edit: the jaunty angle of the photograph probably isn't helping the roof.


http://i1046.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5c5c13c7.jpg

The top of the Z3 door is making things look wrong at the moment. We will have to widen the rear, as the Z3 the panels are sat on is a 1.9 shell with the narrower back acle and the wheels still stick out a bit.

Don't forget the Z3 shown is stripped out and has no engine and box so is sat way too tall to also. I will be cutting the coils soon.

Car photographer 14th July 2014 01:35

Looking great!!

Danny_HUFC 14th July 2014 13:58

Will this have the flip front as per the kobra with it using a z3 donor?

WorldClassAccident 14th July 2014 15:54

Z3 bonnet originally opens normally, ie hinged by the windscreen end

Hammy 14th July 2014 18:38

Looks amazing Chris! Top job as always!!

y cymro 14th July 2014 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribute Automotive (Post 57491)
We will have to widen the rear, as the Z3 the panels are sat on is a 1.9 shell with the narrower back axle and the wheels still stick out a bit.

Excellent, strong Kobra-like rear haunches will really suit it and add to the powerful sports car look. They should also take my wheels :smile:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribute Automotive (Post 57491)
I will be cutting the coils soon.

Good stuff, it looks like it needs a lot of cutting but keep the bugger off its bump stops.

DSG4ME 15th July 2014 10:35

I think itīs really going to look good and canīt wait to see it finished. And even if it differs slightly from the original 250 it doesnīt matter. Remember "Itīs not a replica, itīs a Tribute"

y cymro 15th July 2014 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSG4ME (Post 57530)
I think itīs really going to look good and canīt wait to see it finished. And even if it differs slightly from the original 250 it doesnīt matter. Remember "Itīs not a replica, itīs a Tribute"

I think that with the addition of bulbous Kobra rear wings and Kobra-like front wheel arch flares it will look even better than the original.

casamolino 15th July 2014 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by y cymro (Post 57533)
I think that with the addition of bulbous Kobra rear wings and Kobra-like front wheel arch flares it will look even better than the original.

Evening Steve , got to disagree with you ref the wheel arches , the relatively original shape will do for me ,Geoff .

y cymro 15th July 2014 20:49

Evening Geoff
That's great, it means our cars will look different :-)
Steve

mike.gamble 16th July 2014 09:21

Any more pictures and updates on progress so far?

sebring115 16th July 2014 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribute Automotive (Post 57334)
The back end surfaces are now finished to a level where a slash mould can be taken:

http://i1046.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1dc8cc5a.jpg

Existing splash mould placed back on the rear of the buck:

http://i1046.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0e9c9fcd.jpg

Flanges added to split the mould and gelcoat painted on:

http://i1046.photobucket.com/albums/...ps891ceb29.jpg

The first set of panels should be ready to try on the Z3 early next week.



Question for you, what do you use to make the split line flanges and how do you fix them to the buck.

Cheers

Mark

mike.gamble 17th July 2014 18:15

Any more updates? I'm checking in at least 3 times a day to check if there's any further progress!!

Mister Towed 24th July 2014 23:30

Been a bit quiet lately, any progress?

I for one am really keen to see how you're going to tackle the side windows. I'd be inclined to fabricate a frame to form the door top (like the real thing had) and use a two piece sliding arrangement in lexan or maybe even glass a la mk1 Mini.

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0f74a50e.jpg

Tribute Automotive 25th July 2014 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Towed (Post 57853)
Been a bit quiet lately, any progress?

I for one am really keen to see how you're going to tackle the side windows. I'd be inclined to fabricate a frame to form the door top (like the real thing had) and use a two piece sliding arrangement in lexan or maybe even glass a la mk1 Mini.

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0f74a50e.jpg

Yes Towed a bit quiet, busy with everything at present, so only sanding and filling of the front end of the buck pre-moulding. More pics soon.

Here's something for you to think about:

http://i1046.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9aaf1241.jpg

Use the chassis, running gear, floor pan, inner structure, move bulkhead/steering/pedals back, rack windscreen/side windows back, skin with slightly stretched SWB panels.

Tribute Automotive 25th July 2014 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebring115 (Post 57565)
Question for you, what do you use to make the split line flanges and how do you fix them to the buck.

Cheers

Mark

Sorry for delay in responding. 1mm pvc and hot glue.

Tribute Automotive 25th July 2014 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike.gamble (Post 57603)
Any more updates? I'm checking in at least 3 times a day to check if there's any further progress!!

More progress coming very soon, Donnington looming!

y cymro 26th July 2014 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribute Automotive (Post 57885)
Here's something for you to think about:

http://i1046.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9aaf1241.jpg
Use the chassis, running gear, floor pan, inner structure, move bulkhead/steering/pedals back, rack windscreen/side windows back, skin with slightly stretched SWB panels.

I have one of those waiting to become a hot rod, but this idea might be better.

Presumably an LWB?

Mister Towed 26th July 2014 09:23

Interesting idea, is that going to be an alternative to the Z3 donor, or is it a complete change of direction?

I'm still wondering how you'd address the angle of the back of the door glass using the BMW doors with a Z3 donor.

Maybe scratch built fibreglass doors is the way forward. They'd also cut the weight down and it shouldn't be too hard to sell on the donor's doors.

Hoping to see some progress soon...

y cymro 26th July 2014 10:21

http://i1046.photobucket.com/albums/...ps73f48f8d.jpg

It's noticeable on the SWB how the angle at the rear edge of the door continues up to the side window at the B pillar, and how this angle is matched at the bottom of the Z3 door before it curves to become vertical.
For my car I would like to see the rear of the z3 door extended at the same angle as the Tribute SWB bodyshell to fill the gap seen in the picture above by extending the door skin with a welded add on fillet. It would be possible to also reshape the rear inside corner and door lock mount panel on the door by increasing the angle to allow a new SWB profile window to be fitted - which could open and close vertically using the original window tracks. This would require some re shaping of the B post above the door catch if a new window is to be fitted, though from the outside this would be covered by the glassfibre rear wing. Looking at the pic, I wonder if there's a compromise position so that the door skin could be extended to continue the angle to match the SWB without needing to modify the door catch panel but still allow a new side window to be fitted?
I agree with MrTowed that this is an important element of the SWB shape and makes the B/C pillar more elegant. But the curved, original rear screen helps this effect too and that's another thing that complicates the build.

Of course, this may take the concept of a relatively easy build to a more difficult place and not fit with the original spirit of a 'Tribute'. Chris and Dan are ever resourceful at finding lateral solutions and I too can't wait for the next update.

Mister Towed 26th July 2014 12:54

Perhaps a complete fibreglass replacement door skin with integral window frame with a channel to take sliding glass/perspex side windows would be the most elegant solution.

If you look at an original, the doors open quite a way forward of the windscreen, so the BMW doors won't need shortening, just extending back to fit the opening.

I'll take mine in Argento...

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...psfb479aaa.jpg

casamolino 27th July 2014 08:59

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...05bcdf3cd3.jpg

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...fd9d4120d4.jpg

Two side on shots of 250 SWb`s , how can the same car! look so different , so which ever door line i end up with it will be right :icon_wink: Geoff .

mike.gamble 27th July 2014 09:25

As the originals seem to have so much variation, with quarter lights, without quarter lights and then different shaped glass frames, wouldn't it be easier to do away with any upper running frame and use a one piece that would fit the opening perfectly, similar to the 250 Californias?

http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/...pse99e60c5.jpg

This picture shows one with a hardtop fitted and the window line looks very nice and clean?

casamolino 27th July 2014 09:48

Morning Mike , good photo those side windows look very similar to the standard Z3! , my plan is to have frameless windows , thanks Geoff .

y cymro 27th July 2014 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by casamolino (Post 57926)
Two side on shots of 250 SWb`s , how can the same car! look so different , so which ever door line i end up with it will be right :icon_wink: Geoff .

Morning Geoff
Like most hand built cars, and especially ones built for racing there were a number of subtle changes over it's short lifespan.

According to the RM Auction website:
"In both versions, “Lusso” and “Competizioni,” Ferrari constructed less than 200 SWB Berlinettas in total, these being built to three or four different specifications as to their external details – window configurations, marker lamp locations, body vents, etc. Also, one must remember that since these cars were totally hand-fabricated, in reality each SWB Berlinetta, while similar in appearance, is totally unique! Aesthetically they are unmistakably Ferraris – aerodynamic and devoid of superfluous bulk or embellishment with minimal overhangs and body corners wrapped around the polished Borranis. The general appearance of these fastback projectiles speaks of power and purpose. "

Power and purpose eh. Just like all of us!

The roof profile was changed in 1961. I can't find evidence if this was due to manufacture of body shells changing from aluminium to steel.
Steve.

y cymro 27th July 2014 15:18

Whilst this isn't the right profile for a SWB, a separate quarter light could work well as shown on this 250 GT Cabriolet Speciale which has a door window shape very similar to the Z3

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s...f6b3a2a954.jpg

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s...258ad1b94a.jpg

Pandora 27th July 2014 17:54

alloy and steel cars were built concurrently, and any detail changes would be equally at the discression of the coach builder ot customer.

Worth bearing in mind a lot of these were (literally!) formed using a tree stump, so the 2 sides of the same car may nor even be identical!

I once measured the lengt of the driver and passenger side doors of a 275 we had and there was quite a big difference in the length (over an inch! Precision it was not! I think the argument was "well, you'll never see both sides at the same time, so it soesn't matter"

Mister Towed 27th July 2014 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by y cymro (Post 57932)
Whilst this isn't the right profile for a SWB, a separate quarter light could work well as shown on this 250 GT Cabriolet Speciale which has a door window shape very similar to the Z3

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s...f6b3a2a954.jpg

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s...258ad1b94a.jpg

That was one of the possibilities I'd thought through - a glass fillet attached to the rear bodywork with an 'H' section channel for the BMW side glass to slide up and down in on its front edge.

Then I realised that due to the length of the door it would get ripped off when you opened the door with the window up, and would be hanging in thin air if you wound the window down first.

Anything like that would need to be attached to the door in its own frame over the extension at the back of the BMW door, with the frame extending forward over the side glass to the top of the front quarterlight to make it strong enough not to fall off if someone (inevitably) shoulder barges it as they climb aboard. (hope that makes sense)

Intriguing stuff, can't wait to see the car morph into a production ready kit.

Mister Towed 27th July 2014 19:53

I'm still thinking that scratch built stripped out racer look doors with sliding windows in alloy frames could be the way to go -

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3f4f616d.jpg

Tribute Automotive 27th July 2014 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Towed (Post 57900)
Interesting idea, is that going to be an alternative to the Z3 donor, or is it a complete change of direction?

I'm still wondering how you'd address the angle of the back of the door glass using the BMW doors with a Z3 donor.

Maybe scratch built fibreglass doors is the way forward. They'd also cut the weight down and it shouldn't be too hard to sell on the donor's doors.

Hoping to see some progress soon...

Just an idea to use a pre-existing windscreen/door glass as another option for those, like yourself, who may require a more period base vehicle. Full steam ahead on the Z3 version, which will be the easier build option for most customers I feel.

Mister Towed 27th July 2014 21:56

Having already built one car on an old chassis I'm actually inclined to go down the Z3 donor route for a 'winter' car, and the 250SWB would fit the bill nicely.

Sorry if I keep fishing for info on how the door glass will work, but it just looks like the biggest hurdle in getting it to look right to me.

I'll shut up now and wait to see how you tackle it, I have every faith it'll look fantastic. :)

zagmad 28th July 2014 16:28

Er the headlight covers on the California look like the Alfa spyder duetto still available to buy. Ģ85 or their abouts before postage and packaging for a pair. And use of the swb front with those laid on the bonnet nose.

y cymro 28th July 2014 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Towed (Post 57947)
I'm still thinking that scratch built stripped out racer look doors with sliding windows in alloy frames could be the way to go -

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3f4f616d.jpg

According to people on the Ferrari chat forum this car (a GTO) is a replica and was bought by the same ginger haired chap who owns lots of other Ferraris. They say he bought it with full knowledge it's a replica.

mike.gamble 28th July 2014 19:32

I'm still itching for more pictures of the progress being made!

redratbike 28th July 2014 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by y cymro (Post 57969)
According to people on the Ferrari chat forum this car (a GTO) is a replica and was bought by the same ginger haired chap who owns lots of other Ferraris. They say he bought it with full knowledge it's a replica.

There are replicas and there are replicas

This isn't a datsun underNeath..probably another ferraroi rebodied

y cymro 28th July 2014 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by redratbike (Post 57979)
There are replicas and there are replicas

No there aren't. Replica means exact copy.

DSG4ME 29th July 2014 08:18

There are Replicas, Lookalikes and Forgeries.

Lookalikes are cars that look very similar but are not exact copies.
Replicas are nearly identical to the original. In some cases can be better
than the original.
Forgeries are perfect replicas that are passed off as original. For example
the Favre Ferrri GTO, built on an original GTE but had its chassis
number manipulated.

Although there are many forgeries around, most of them are well known
and are still sold for millions. In many cases they are better finished than
the original.


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