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-   -   Tribute Z3gato (?!!) (http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6466)

Barber 1st September 2017 12:19

Tribute Z3gato (?!!)
 
When I got interested in kits again a couple of years ago the Tribute models and re-body approach won out over other options, (principally getting a ragged or unfinished Minari with a zippy 1.7 16 valve injected boxer engine).

Whilst initially attracted by the Tribute 250 SWB, I soon realised that I wanted something different. Next up I toyed with the idea of a cobra back end, Z3 hardtop and something like WCAs short nose front. But that was not quite right either (though still a good option for me if nothing else materialised – see the Ferrari style below) so I started searching the internet for images of what took my fancy. I found this... the Alfa Zagato SZ Tonda. They sell for in excess of £250,000, so obviously a real one was not on the cards.
http://i67.tinypic.com/20f9snd.jpg

After initial discussions with Chris at the end of last year, and early in this, it became clear that it was a significant ground up design project, and was not likely to get prioritisation from Chris any time soon. A pity as it remains my favourite style and size. It would have gone onto an MX5, MK3 probably. I think that is an Aston Martin DB4 GT (not Zagato) in the background.

All was not lost though. The 50s and 60s Italian designs of Pinifarina and Zagato grabbed my attention and the hunt was on. More web searches followed and I decided that I preferred the Zagato designs ahead of Pinafarina. As well as the Alfa design above, Zagato came up with a few more in the late 50s and 60s. None of them are cheap options to go the ‘original’ route though.

There is this from Masserati....
http://i64.tinypic.com/110ajyh.jpg

Especially the back

This from Fiat.....
http://i67.tinypic.com/2yxqbyw.jpg

Liking that scoop and more like the Alfa

This from Lancia....
http://i65.tinypic.com/16as3k8.jpg

That front is more like it but the rear wing and grill look clumsy. Elsewhere, images of the dash look clean.

This from Ferrari....
http://i64.tinypic.com/2nlqpa8.jpg

That has a ‘muscle’ presence, and a long bonnet and scoop. But not as elegant as the others and the brake vent is a bit of a wart on the nose (unless you like Cobras).

This from Aston Martin....
http://i63.tinypic.com/rrtkip.jpg

Liking the slimmer waist and proportions up front. This is an approved, Sanction II replica that sold for over £1,250,000. Gulp.


I also spotted this on Zagmad's build thread.....
http://i63.tinypic.com/9vl5ki.png

Built on an MX5, it prompted me to contact Chris to find out if the opportunity had gone, it had, ah well.

But it set my mind to thinking, and Chris's too. Was there a way to advance existing investment that could yield a Zagato like style on a Z3? I’ll explain why not Z4 later.

Jaguartvr 1st September 2017 15:49

The red Zagato................only its mother could love it!

I wonder if a hardtop (of ny design) on the MX5 or Z3 would be better using the original soft top front clips?
No cracking problems and the rear clip would then be removable.
Should also make the build easier and quicker.
Is it the angle the picture has been taken from or has Zagmads dipped at the A post?
Looks nothing like the last picture.

Barber 1st September 2017 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaguartvr (Post 90356)
The red Zagato................only its mother could love it!

I wonder if a hardtop (of ny design) on the MX5 or Z3 would be better using the original soft top front clips?
No cracking problems and the rear clip would then be removable.
Should also make the build easier and quicker.
Is it the angle the picture has been taken from or has Zagmads dipped at the A post?
Looks nothing like the last picture.

Gasp, how dare you, sir.:icon_lol:

There are so many bits that will be different on mine, it probably makes sense to stick with Chris for the roof. I am not overly fussed about having a removable top. Thanks anyway.

It won't be quite like that anyway. Zagmad's was an early version, he has gone a completely different direction now. Not sure what it actually looks like at present, we have only seen photos of other production cars.

Jaguartvr 1st September 2017 17:29

Sorry, but I meant all hard tops to be fixed with the original soft top clips to avoid cracking and to make the build easier.

The Zatago looks as if it was breed from a Beetle and some other ugly car, sorry but it is simply Fugly.
Your last mix was much better.

Paul L 1st September 2017 19:01

Barber - Well I am always amazed at what Chris and Dan can do with bits they find lying around. :cool:

Good luck, Paul. :)

Barber 2nd September 2017 08:50

:icon_biggrin:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul L (Post 90364)
Barber - Well I am always amazed at what Chris and Dan can do with bits they find lying around. :cool:

Good luck, Paul. :)

:icon_biggrin:

lancelot link 2nd September 2017 13:14

I really like the red Zagato at the top ...its got very obvious Porsche 356 influence to my eye , which can never be a bad thing .....

lancelot link 2nd September 2017 13:21

Evanta cars used to offer this gorgeous example before they ceased trading .....

https://www.imageupload.co.uk/images...h6jVcufpQB.jpg

Barber 2nd September 2017 14:02

The red alfa was a mid to late 1950s design. The silver one has some very obvious leanings when you compare it to the green Sanction II in my post. Some of the AM Zagatos have a scoop on the bonnet too, showing the heredity from the db4 gt.

Jaguartvr 2nd September 2017 15:14

The Evanta is very pretty, much more so than the red beetle lookalike:tape:

obr 2nd September 2017 20:15

This sounds great.

I always loved zagmad's project until it changed directlon. The front end (even at concept stage) looked great.

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/...mLmpwZw==?ref=

Barber 3rd September 2017 12:28

I am not really a fan of using OEM badges on kits and replicas, but just noticed the Zagato Z on the side of the Evanta. Hmmmm

This car will be a Tribute to the designer, rather than a particular marque. Would that make me bad?

lancelot link 3rd September 2017 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barber (Post 90393)
I am not really a fan of using OEM badges on kits and replicas, but just noticed the Zagato Z on the side of the Evanta. Hmmmm

This car will be a Tribute to the designer, rather than a particular marque. Would that make me bad?

DIFFICULT ONE ...It doesn't bother me ...the Pinafarina badges get used a lot and they look ok to my eye ...I too , don't like the great big ''Begging Donkey'' badges etc that get plastered everywhere ....but designer badges feels less of a no-no to me ...can't really justify my opinion , just exactly that , my opinion ...

zagmad 3rd September 2017 16:40

2 vev would be easier to replicate . The 1 vev requires a short over hang and low haunches at the back. I learnt the hard way. Life goes on. The new build is taking hints from the maserati zagato but with sharper,crisper wings . Quite drawn to the two tone of the fez 250 zagato. Hope all goes well . Measure twice cut once

Barber 3rd September 2017 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by lancelot link (Post 90396)
DIFFICULT ONE ...It doesn't bother me ...the Pinafarina badges get used a lot and they look ok to my eye ...I too , don't like the great big ''Begging Donkey'' badges etc that get plastered everywhere ....but designer badges feels less of a no-no to me ...can't really justify my opinion , just exactly that , my opinion ...

I tend to agree. Given how many times designers have used other designers' ideas and styles, together with re-peddling across several marques, what the actual design ip is, becomes almost impossible to determine. Some of the Ferrari rear ends done by Pinafarina are almost indistinguishable from Zagato ones. People are not going to look at a tribute (or even a replica if it comes to it) and say, "Wow, I thought that was really a Pinafarina".

Barber 4th September 2017 17:36

Part 2
 
So what is it exactly that I want? In summary:

An every day driver.
A coupe, with aircon.
Electric stock windows (roadster or coupe)
Electric heated seats probably the Rover ones
Something like Kidge's 275 lined roof.
Dash maybe using the z3 instruments and warning lights, with a glove box or recess
Modified doorcards maybe like those in andysharrock’s Build No 4 thread, possibly with small pockets, though Kidges modified Z3 approach appeals.

Style wise, externally, I am not a fan of the 250 door skins. And despite some design compromises, I will go with the original Z3 doors, hence why not a Z4. I will most likely make handle modifications such as WCAs Fiat handles at some stage, though the early BMW Series 3 handles also appeal and are probably easier to do.

I was impressed how good the Z300s look in the flesh with the slimmer waist. The photos do not do them justice. Thanks Nick and IainA for sharing experiences on here, but especially at the club meet this summer.

Nose is still open, could be similar to any of the Zagatos above.

The MGB slab back window will not do for me. And rear quarter lights are required to offset the required changes if stock roadster (or coupe) windows are retained. I see Roadster has had similar thoughts previously too. I will probably swap the wing mirrors with the modern mini ones, though not sure how I will treat (or fit them) - body coloured covers probably.

Wheels - as this will be my every day driver, and given that there is a premium to getting this off the ground, something like Dunlop style steels is an economic option, or maybe Calibres like ericholm. The Maserati above looks like it could have Calibres from that distance. Only the Alfa and Lancia have steel wheels, and compared to the Alfa, the Fiat looks better for the spoke style wheels.

The deal with Chris is now done, so watch this space after Christmas.

Next on the list of things to do is to get the donor 2.8 when prices drop in the next few weeks. Could be a challenge as probably I will be abroad working for 3 weeks at the end of September, and a 10 day holiday planned for October. In the meantime, start looking and shopping for the accessories that Chris will need for the initial build.

I know that my taste or ideas may not be to everyone’s liking, but heyho. There will also be style compromises resulting from not starting from scratch as well. So be it, I have faith that Chris and Dan will come up with the goods.

All opinions and feedback are welcome, (sooner rather than later). Once we kick off, there will be minimal changes to the project.

Jaguartvr 4th September 2017 18:47

I would suggest getting a donor asap to iron out any bugs. Also, remove the door cards and see how you like a long journey without an armrest. Very hard to get comfy without an armrest.
You might be able to fit a retro armrest from an MGB or similar.

There was s set of BMW Dunlop style wheels on Ebay last week from Germany last week, looked the same as the steels but were actually alloy wheels. I think they were £88 inc delivery.

Paul L 4th September 2017 21:17

Depending on how the build is constructed, getting a fresh MOT just before strip down begins might help.

As, for example, ericholm’s build was able to stay road legal while under construction. :cool:

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5693/...f35bea5f_c.jpg

Based on these two statements I think you have every chance of ending up with a great car in the end.

”Once we kick off, there will be minimal changes to the project.”

”I have faith that Chris and Dan will come up with the goods.”

Good luck, Paul. :)

redratbike 5th September 2017 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaguartvr (Post 90430)
There was s set of BMW Dunlop style wheels on Ebay last week from Germany last week, looked the same as the steels but were actually alloy wheels. I think they were £88 inc delivery.

these look good

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/253088156760...14&_mwBanner=1

Barber 5th September 2017 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaguartvr (Post 90430)
I would suggest getting a donor asap to iron out any bugs. Also, remove the door cards and see how you like a long journey without an armrest. Very hard to get comfy without an armrest.
You might be able to fit a retro armrest from an MGB or similar.

There was s set of BMW Dunlop style wheels on Ebay last week from Germany last week, looked the same as the steels but were actually alloy wheels. I think they were £88 inc delivery.

Good advice, I never thought about that.

Barber 5th September 2017 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by redratbike (Post 90433)

They do look good indeed,. though I like the £80 price option better.

Ozzie Dave 6th September 2017 11:50

Thats my ideal, the Evante/AM front end with the swb rear end like Erics, in a 2.8 the perfect option. then a 'period style' interior.

Barber 9th September 2017 05:55

Dashboard
 
I have been thinking about the dashboard for the Z3gato, and decided that re-using the Z3 instrument functionality makes sense. So....
See Lancia Zagato dash below as basic guide.
I want a single instrument binnacle to accommodate the current Z3 instrument pod, the current binnacle is close, but a re-worked one would be more “joined up.”
http://i64.tinypic.com/2cgzold.jpg

The dashboard made for Geoff looks a good start point. Replace the dual dial binacle with a single, larger, oval one to accommodate the current Z3 instrument cluster.
http://i67.tinypic.com/2lbjlvp.jpg

Re-use the original Z3 outer dash vents in roughly the same position per current Z3 dash using extreme left and right positions. Re purpose the current Z3 central vent area and relocate the 3 Z3 heater control dials there. In the consul, the current stereo unit and vacated heater dial positions in the Z3 dash to be used to accommodate a satnav/media unit. There is not enough depth at dash level to locate the unit higher up due to the bar running across the dash. Satnav/media units are all 6-6.5 inches deep.
http://i68.tinypic.com/o0whfs.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/157k6m0.jpg

On the passenger side, I would like a smaller part of the recess to be deeper for a glove box arrangement for placing phones etc (on a non slip mat if no door). So the recess you did for Geoff would extend further to the left, and be deeper on the lhs nearer the passenger door side.

Going from the left of dash would be:

Vent, glove/phone box, heater control dials, single instrument pod, vent. I would probably re-use the quarterlight vents on top of the Z3 dashboard and cut them into the new dash top.
http://i68.tinypic.com/4vn815.jpg

That way, only the current centre vents, are lost but we retain full warm or cold air(con) using the same control dials as the current. setup in a Z3.

I will probably cover the dash and consul in leather. The consul would house something like this...

http://i67.tinypic.com/2lbjlnn.jpg
Dimensions (WxHxD)182 x 112 x 153mm

Paul L 9th September 2017 13:48

Barber - Someone 'bumped' an old 'Retro Dash' thread the other day.

Tribute had this style of dash for their MX5 based kits.

http://i1046.photobucket.com/albums/...e/IMG_1131.jpg

So I am sure they could make a Z3/MX5 hybrid.

Good luck, Paul. :)

Jaguartvr 9th September 2017 13:54

The clever thing about the new 250 dash is that all the demist vents are still in place on the original dash. Filing those out of a GRP dash and getting the demister tubes back in the right place would have been a pain.
I think a hybrid dash using the existing Z3 instruments would be a good idea.
I really want to see someone wire up a set of the Veglia replicas from E B instruments in one of Chris's new dashboards.
Come on someone, pull your finger out!

Barber 3rd October 2017 14:11

Wing Mirrors
 
I had planned to get some Mini electric mirrors and find a way to fit them. However, I figured that I had better spend my time on things that are less visible if they end in failure. So I got some of these. They are not cheap, and difficult to get hold of.
http://i67.tinypic.com/23jgvtg.jpg

Barber 6th October 2017 08:06

Donor
 
3.0 ltr, low mileage, game on.http://i67.tinypic.com/4t2c1z.jpg

Jaguartvr 6th October 2017 10:58

In comparing 2.8's against 3.0's, one of the big advantages of the 3.0 is that all the metal work under the painted panels is painted satin black. This means you can paint your car any colour you like.
The hood will be coming off so the only restriction to colour choice is your interior. As you have a few months before starting the kit you could do the interior first, certainly easier to do now than when the hardtop is bonded on.

Barber 6th October 2017 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaguartvr (Post 91019)
In comparing 2.8's against 3.0's, one of the big advantages of the 3.0 is that all the metal work under the painted panels is painted satin black. This means you can paint your car any colour you like.
The hood will be coming off so the only restriction to colour choice is your interior. As you have a few months before starting the kit you could do the interior first, certainly easier to do now than when the hardtop is bonded on.

Well..... if i had known that, I might have got a car a bit quicker. I have been focussing on finding a black or silver one. .. weep

The interior is tan (hearing aid beige), but I plan to do something with the dash/consul and the door cards, so only the carpets really. I will replace the seats, I am already sick of the bolster stabbing me in the back when I get in, then try to pin me in when I am getting out.

Of course, these are just plans, and free of the complications of actually doing anything.

Barber 6th October 2017 20:32

If the split rims had a few more spokes I might have got away with retaining them.

Lucky@LeMans 6th October 2017 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaguartvr (Post 91019)
In comparing 2.8's against 3.0's, one of the big advantages of the 3.0 is that all the metal work under the painted panels is painted satin black. This means you can paint your car any colour you like.
The hood will be coming off so the only restriction to colour choice is your interior. As you have a few months before starting the kit you could do the interior first, certainly easier to do now than when the hardtop is bonded on.

My blue 2.2 is all satin black under the bonnet. It looks like it was factory done like that from new.

Paul L 17th October 2017 05:14

Barber – Belated congratulations on getting your donor car. :cool:

Good luck, Paul. :)

Barber 19th October 2017 12:03

B**tard battery
 
The seller commented that he had fitted a new battery. After a long journey home, and a round trip to Chichester, I had only done a few short trips over several days. Then off to Oman for an 8 day holiday. battery flat on return. :icon_cry:

I know it is a common feature with BMWs generally, and the Z3 forums indicate a variety of possibilities. Just waiting for the battery to charge before going through the obvious ones mentioned so far:

Boot courtesy light, Boot wiring, Seat adjustment buttons, media centre (this could be a contender as the previous owner had a Panasonic pop out unit fitted), internal courtesy light, remote central locking, for starters.

I will have to get round to Maplins to get a multimeter so I can check everything more thoroughly. If that sounds like I know what I am doing, don't be fooled.But the various bits of advice about checking the circuits via the fuses makes sense. :help:

Any tips or hints gratefully received.

Jaguartvr 19th October 2017 16:30

Take both battery terminals off and give the posts and terminals a good clean. Make sure that the terminals are really tight, check that they can't rotate.
I have had problems both with the Z3 and a few E46's in the past.
BMW use a 10mm bolt that tightens the terminals from the bottom which is not a good system as it doesn't seem to tighten the terminals enough.
You think the battery is dead and recharge it but it turns out that disturbing the terminals brings it back to life.

Barber 19th October 2017 18:17

Thanks Jag, I will double check the tightness of the bolts tomorrow. I am still going to get a meter and check the draw on the various fuses though just in case. It only costs £9.99 from Maplin.

Jaguartvr 19th October 2017 18:21

I still find on the Z3 that if left for a few weeks it won't turn over as if the battery is flat. Give both terminals a firm tap to twist them slightly and it will then start.
The clamps appear tight and are clean. I have exactly the same with the E46 sitting on the drive.

IanA 28th October 2017 15:23

When checking the residual current drain after turning the ignition off- it will be higher for the first 30 seconds whilst the alarm system stabilises. Then it drops down to the true value.
I have removed the fuses for circuits supplying my power seats.

Barber 28th October 2017 15:52

Battery drain
 
Thanks Ian,

I will take a look when I get back to the UK later this week. There is some movement of the driver seat on braking and heavy acceleration, but as I plan to change the seats, I will most likely address it then. No harm checking in the meantime.

WRT to seat bush issue. I once worked with a very nice lady who took her Mondeo in for some remedial work. When I dropped her off to collect it, the mechanic manfully kept a straight face whilst advising her that her problem was a split bush. :eusa_shifty:

Welshkiwi 29th October 2017 06:22

Hi Barber,
I have been chasing what I thought was a drain issue also, the same from the previous seller that a relatively new battery was fitted. After doing the “parasitic drain tests” with every locked up, alarm on etc (ammeter in series) I was only getting 40ma of drain which is normal.
Subsequent testing (and a bit of history digging) finds the battery rated at 580cca has only got approx 280cca capacity and had been run flat at least 8 times in the last 18 months. Very heavily sulphated battery. Now at the battery reconditioner hopefully can be resurrected for at least a year or so whilst I build the project.
Not saying yours is the same, but check for your parasitic drain and if the car checks out ok, check your alternator charge is good and then focus in on the battery.....you never know how it has been previously treated. Cheers Mark

IanA 29th October 2017 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by IanA (Post 91388)
I have removed the fuses for circuits supplying my power seats.

I also use a 15w solar charger which is left on top of the dashboard when the car is not in use.


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