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Go Back   Madabout Kitcars Forum > Mad Build Area > Sammio Builds and discussions

Sammio Builds and discussions Sammio bodied car builds and specials

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  #2101  
Old 15th October 2015, 13:13
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Inching Along...
Managed to sneaked a little bit of car work in today...

Cleaned up the rubber seal for the boot lid.





- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Made some cardboard templates to "bridge" the horizontal gaps from the cockpit framework to the body shell.



These will eventually be cut out of one of my original fibreglass floor pans (avoiding the "wobbly" bits).



Then some fibreglass matting will added to the edges to hold the body shell in position.
( Until the vertical plywood panels are added. )

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I had a brief look at how I could bridge the gap between the rear edge of the boot floor and the body shell.



This panel (when complete) will be keeping the boot water tight, rather than supporting the rear shell (see below).

Note:
I fear there will be a lot of fiddly work at the corners and where the tail pipes are held in place.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I wanted to quickly paint the underside of mounting points for the boot lid lock latches.

So I propped up the back.





I couldn't get a decent photo of the paint underneath, but at least I can now refit the latches.

I also removed the masking tape and newspaper from the sunny side of the boot lid opening.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Supporting the rear section of the body shell:

The rear of the Spyder body shell is supported by the Herald's outriggers, this is Mr T's.



Whereas, the original combination of Cordite framework and Spitfire chassis left "thin air" at the rear.



Thankfully, I now have a boot floor / tail pipe support bracket to play with.



Although re-reading Swifty's build reminded me that his rear sub-frame/boot area provides more support for the body shell.



I also liked the way Michiel added sections to the rear of his body shell, that then rested on the internal framework.

#47



So I am going to use a variation of that theme, that will involve adding panels along the sloping sides of my bracket.



Plus adding some panels from the angle iron running across the rear of the boot floor up to the body shell too.



Note:
I will make proper templates after the body shell has been bonded on at the front & the "middle" (between the humps).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Until next time, take care, Paul.
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  #2102  
Old 20th October 2015, 10:46
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Cordite Dreamin'
All the leaves are brown (the leaves are brown)
And the sky is grey (and the sky is grey)




Whilst I do love Autumn colours, I know working on the car always gets harder once leaves start appearing on my "garage" floor .

It is already noticeably colder outside and I can't believe the clocks are going back this weekend.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Another Inch
Just had the chance to refit the rubber seal around the boot lid rain channel and the brackets for the boot lid locks.



Thankfully, the black paint does make this area look a lot better than it did before.

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Revised Plan
Even though I've not been able to work on the car recently, I have been pulling together various "To Do" lists.

I am trying hard to group jobs together in a logical order to reach mini milestones on the road to an MOT.

So far, the next few key stages look like this:
- Continue looking at where/how the body shell will be joined to the Moon Rover.
- Remove the body shell for the last time for better access to the last few jobs required.
- Finally bond the body shell into place.
- Bridge all the remaining gaps to add strength and make things water tight.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Until next time, take care, Paul.
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  #2103  
Old 20th October 2015, 12:43
oxford1360 oxford1360 is offline
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Hi Paul,

Keep it up!

Like you I was obsessed with making things water tight but it dawned on me that it it rains, the inside of the car is going to get wet! So if a little comes through the sides etc., it won't be noticed when it meets the stuff coming through the gaping hole where most cars have a roof!.

I can understand why you will want to keep the boot dry but the realist in me thinks that drain holes might be a better friend than seals!

I have made a fair bit of progress recently (too lazy to update my thread but I shall) and the realisation (outlined above) has led me to decide (for the time being) to make the body fully removable so that I can return quickly to the moon rover stage if I need to carry out any significant work.

I know that there are disadvantages as well as advantages to this approach but I thought I would share just in case this option is swimming around in that Sammio Thinkotorium that we call our heads.
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  #2104  
Old 20th October 2015, 14:12
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Oxford - You make a valid point about the slight possibility of water seeping through the gaping hole where the roof should be.



So I should really stop using the phrase "water tight", when what I really mean to say is closing the gaps to make the car "MOT friendly".

Because, much as I like the simple construction techniques used here...



I can't imagine getting an MOT if the tester can actually see the ground from the cockpit!



I saw this car's "underside" on "Rods 'n' Sods" recently and thought it would definitely look impressive from the MOT pit.



Whilst I will certainly not be able to match that level of quality, my Frankenstein approach has given me a hint of factory finish underneath.



So as long as I can join all the various edges to the body shell I will be happy.

Note:
I will be adding some extra drain holes to various points in the car as well.

Cheers, Paul.

PS
As Winter approaches, it would be great to see an update on your build to motivate the rest of us to keep plugging away.

I know Micky1Mo uses a bolt on body shell approach for his BMW Sammio, but I didn't notice if there are any gaps where it joins.
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  #2105  
Old 20th October 2015, 14:23
oxford1360 oxford1360 is offline
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My plan is to build a continuous tub (no views of the road beneath!) with sides that are 2/3 or the full height of the body, and then sit the strengthened body on this.

Imagine your floor pan (which is very smart) with sides and you will have a rough idea.
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  #2106  
Old 25th October 2015, 19:00
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Oxford - Looking forward to seeing your approach in action.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Winter Time:
The clocks going back mark the start of my 4th Winter on this project.

However, looking back over the last few Winters, the good news is that, despite the weather, I still manage to make process.

So with a few hours available to spend on the car today, it was time to pull on my woolly hat and get on with it.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

My wife helped me lift off the body shell, for what should be <touch wood> the last time.



This will allow me to make the final adjustments required to both the body shell and the Moon Rover.

You may recall that I painted the area that extends beyond the bulkhead over the dash board.



Unfortunately, I forgot that there is a similar "over hang" at the front of the bulkhead too.



So I need to paint the area to the right of the red line in the photo above.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

With the body shell out of the way, I was able to fine tune my "alignment tool", after adjusting one of the tail pipes.



The bottom line is there no real datum point to work with, so the boot floor support bracket is now my reference point.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Thankfully, I remembered I was planning to recycle the main sections of the fibreglass floors into engine bay deflectors.

So I cut out the "bridging" sections I need for the sides of the body shell from other bits of 'left over' fibreglass.







- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I'd added a section of metal across the internal framework to help me brace the body shell between the humps.



But one thing that was always in the back of my mind was that the body shell did not cover the length of this support.

The following photos are taken from underneath the body shell, so they are not great.

However, you can still seen that on the passenger side, the extra hump was added on top of the body shell in this area.



Whereas, on the driver's side, the original hump has "thin air" beneath it at the rear cockpit edge end.



Although this "gap" was bridged where the humps were cut to make the boot lid, like so.



So I cut out another section of 'left over' fibreglass.



Which will be used to bridge the gap between the driver's hump here:



Note:
I am deliberately tucking this in a bit, so there is no risk of fouling against the framework.
( I will just use a bigger blob of bonding paste in this area. )

The panel was then taped into position.



Before I started adding some fibreglass matting to seal/join the edges.

Not my neatest work, but given that I couldn't actually see what I was doing, not bad.



Although once this has set properly, I will tidy it up and add a final layer of matting across the joins.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The last job of the day was to double check the "latches" for the boot lid locks.



Thankfully they are work fine, so that is one less thing to worry about.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

End of Part 1...
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  #2107  
Old 25th October 2015, 19:01
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St. Crispian's Day:
Today marks the 600th anniversary of Henry V's victory at the Battle of Agincourt.

Although I only know this because I read about it in Friday's newspaper.

And I only mention it here, because of a post I saw on the Tribute forum about the Z300s at a classic car show at Brooklands this morning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gas guzzler View Post
...Cars got quite a bit of interest, most positive, heard a few negative comments but that's to be expected on a kit car being displayed next to a the likes of lightweight E- types and Bentley Blowers...
So with full apologies to William Shakespeare ...

"And gentlemen in England at car shows
Shall think themselves accurs'd they did simply buy their classic cars,
And hold their manhoods cheap while any speaks
That fought with a kit to build their own car."




- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Until next time, take care, Paul.
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  #2108  
Old 26th October 2015, 06:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
St. Crispian's Day:

So with full apologies to William Shakespeare ...

"And gentlemen in England at car shows
Shall think themselves accurs'd they did simply buy their classic cars,
And hold their manhoods cheap while any speaks
That fought with a kit to build their own car."
"Now is Paul's winter of discontent. Is this a spanner I see before me? Alas poor Sammio builder, I knew him Horatio: a fellow of infinite patience. etc., etc."

Keep plugging away Paul.
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  #2109  
Old 26th October 2015, 16:08
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Mister Towed - Hopefully now is the Winter of my body shell finally being bonded into place.

Although admittedly that doesn't have quite the same ring about it.

Jokes aside, thanks for the encouragement.

As I've been re-reading your build thread a lot recently to remind myself how you joined your body to the frame.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Monday - Part 1:
I've made a lot of progress in "non car" areas recently, so I wanted to make the most of the current fine weather.
( Then I can switch back to other stuff when the rain arrives towards the end of the week. )

Yesterday's work on the driver's hump "bridge" had set and was strong enough to hold everything in place.

So I removed all the tape from the outside.
( Sorry the photo is so blurred. )



Then cleaned up the fibreglass matting applied to the inside edges.



Note:
This could only be done "blind" which resulted in my hands picking up a lot of fibreglass splinters.

Then I added a final layer of matting on the inside and made another mess.



Then I added some matting along the outside edges of the bridge panel too.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I applied a thin coat of Tetroseal to the underside of the body shell around the rear lights.



Plus the inside of the wheel arches, as my Spitfire arches will be lower than these.



I also remembered something Mr T said a long time ago and left "gaps" where any joins need to be made.

E.g. This is where the Spitfire arches will be extended out to meet the body shell.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Used some masking tape to mark out the front "over hang" area.



Then sprayed some etch primer on it.



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When the matting I added this morning was set, I sanded down the outside edges of the driver's hump bridge panel.



Also cleaned up the inside edges a bit before covering the inside with Tetroseal.



I also did the other side of the hump that was cut off for the boot lid.



So now the area that will be bonded to the Moon Rover looks like this.



Again, the untreated fibreglass is where the bonding paste will be applied.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

End of Part 1...
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  #2110  
Old 26th October 2015, 16:09
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Monday - Part 2:
Mixed up some bonding paste as part of an experiment to check the mix ratio / pot life in colder weather.

I then used it to "entomb" the bolts holding the framework to the bulkhead.
( As once the body shell is bonded into position, these two sections will never be separated again. )



The bonding paste turns from a bright blue to a light brown very quickly, which makes me nervous.

But, thankfully, it can still be "shaped" when it is this colour, so it doesn't set as soon as the colour changes.





I used just under 150ml for this little job, so I will need to mix up a HUGE amount when the time comes to bond the body shell on.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hopefully I will get a bit more done tomorrow.

So until then, take care, Paul.
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  #2111  
Old 27th October 2015, 07:54
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Monday - Post Script:
So much for worrying about the bonding paste setting too quickly, as it was still "wet" 2 hours later when I went to put the covers on.

In the end I had to use some bits of wood to "extend" the width of the body shell to ensure the tarpaulin didn't touch the paste before it had set properly.

But I was actually doing some more research on bonding last night (see below) and came across this great quote...

Quote:
Originally Posted by davecymru View Post
... Bonding paste has come as somewhat of a revelation to me, it's wonderful stuff and while it does take about an entire day to fully dry it really does stick like the preverbal mucky brown stuff to a blanket!...
Sure enough, I have just been outside to check the paste this morning and although it is still a little "tacky", it has certainly set solid over night.

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Bonding Research:
The various Sammio websites always included a "Getting Started" section and this Moon Rover photo is taken from there.



Unfortunately, the websites never included any photos of where / how much bonding paste was applied to the framework.

Thankfully, Mister Towed did include some photos showing the bonding paste blobs he applied on his build.





It is possible I might have missed it, but I think this is the only build thread that showed this stage in any detail.
( Although there are lots of photos of body shells strapped into place after bonding. )

The key thing for me is remembering that the bonding paste only played a small part in the joining process.
( After all, there is very little framework "surface area" to play with on the "Sammio" Moon Rover in the website photo above. )

Instead, it the fibreglass / panelling work done after the bonding that really holds things together.

Note:
Clearly the bonding stage does determine the alignment of the body shell, so has to be done properly.

I've re-read a lot of build thread recently and DaveCymru's Miglia actually skipped the bonding stage all together.
( He simply strapped the shell into position and then 'glassed it into place and added some alloy brackets too. )

Whilst I will only have two points of contact between my Moon Rover and the body shell, they have BIG surface areas.

#1 - Top of bulkhead, which the body shell was moulded to fit over as part of my Frankenstein build approach.
( Sorry, this was the first photo of the top of the bulkhead I could find. )



#2 - Support panel between the humps.



This was yet another idea I stole from Mr T, after first seeing his "Incredible Bonding Blob".



I think it was this photo that was making me worried yesterday about just how much bonding paste I would need to mix up.

However, I now realise my bulkhead will just need a thin(ish) skim and the rear panel will not need as much as Mr T.
( As differences in the framework / body shell design mean the gap to fill is smaller on my car. )

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Right, I'm off now to see how much closer I can actually get to the bonding stage today.

Cheers, Paul.
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  #2112  
Old 27th October 2015, 17:01
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And it was all going so well - Part 1:
I wanted to see if I could sort out why the fuel gauge was reading low before the body shell went back on.

So I started by simply unbolting the earth connection and cleaning the frame back to bare metal.



But a good earth was clearly not the problem and cleaning the contacts for the wires didn't help either.

Eventually I was able to get the gauge to move over to the right.



But this was because I had the sender unit in my hand.



However, at least I knew both the gauge and sender unit worked.

My real fear was that by turning the fuel feed pipe through 180 degrees it was fouling the float arm.

It was only while I was trying to look inside the tank to see what was going on that the light bulb finally came on.

Not easy to see in this photo, but the tank, along with the rest of the car, is on a slope.



So the reason the gauge is reading low, is that the petrol is "pooled" on one side and giving a low reading.

Which means that in the famous words of Roberto De Vicenzo.... "What a stupid I am."

Tidied up the rear wiring loom along the frame work and then continued into the boot area.





Cleaned up the three earthing points back to bare metal.



Removed all the rear lighting as the testing is complete and then bolted the earth connections into place.



Note:
I will zip tie the loom out of the way when I have sealed off the gap between the boot floor and the body shell.

There are a few "factory" holes left in the top of the bulkhead.



So I covered them with come card and masking tape to prevent bonding paste "leaking" below.



I have used a bit of yoga mat in the section below the rear view mirror mounting point.



So I will then be able to pull this out from below when the time comes to fit the mirror.

Sprayed some black paint on to the front over hang.



Not a great photo, but various sections of the inside edge of the rear arches needed a bit of a trim.





Dug out my tie down straps to check they were all working.



Some are in a sorry state, but should be able to hold the body shell in place when the time comes.

I started measuring out some bonding paste.



So I now have 2 tubs with 400ml in them, but no catalyst added.



Because, believe it or not, I am finally ready to bond the body shell on.

Or at least I thought I was...

End of Part 1...
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  #2113  
Old 27th October 2015, 17:02
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Part 2:
Unfortunately, my wife had to pop out and I needed her to help me get the body shell back on.

In the end she was delayed, so I made the rather rash decision to lift the body shell single handed.

This was physically quite a strain, but there was a real risk I would drop and break the body shell.

So I was very happy when the body shell was finally in position.



Note:
My plan was to prop up the body shell from this position, add the bonding paste and then drop it back down.
( Thus avoiding any panic to get the body shell in place without "catching" the bonding paste while moving it. )

Unfortunately, my joy was short lived, as the new bridge panel under the driver's hump fouled the frame.



I really should have known better than to put a straight line anywhere near my body shell without checking first.

The only good news is that I can fix this by cutting out a small section of the "bridge".

But by now it was getting dark so I decided to pack up for the night and live to fight another day.



I could even raise a smile when I discovered than one lid was missing.



Depending on the weather, and other stuff I need to do, I might be able to sort this out tomorrow.

Until next time, take care, Paul.
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  #2114  
Old 28th October 2015, 16:48
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Wednesday:
Was actually woken up this morning by the sound of the rain lashing down outside.

But I did manage to make a little bit of progress this afternoon...

The driver's hump bride was lifting the body shell off the framework like so.



So I propped up the rear of the body shell to give me access to the driver's hump bridge.



But it was almost impossible to cut the "relief" hole I needed in this position.



I even managed to slice through the body shell.



So I had to admit defeat and wait for my wife to return so I could lift the body shell off.



At least this give you a better view of the painting I did at both ends.





In the end I probably made the hole a lot bigger than it needed to be.
( But I just couldn't face lifting the body shell on and off any more to fine tune the size. )



By 4.30pm the sun was setting in the West.



So, with my wife's help, the body shell was lifted back into place.

Thankfully, the frame has once again "disappeared" behind the lip.



Although it then dawned on me that the bonding paste will actually lift this up a little bit, but that is OK.

I knew that the body shell was now sitting lower at the back when I offered up my alignment tools.

This was yesterday and notice how the "T" sits under the piece connecting the rear lighting.



Whereas today, there is not enough room under the horizontal piece for the "T" template to sit.
( A small bit of pressure on the passenger side is enough to level the rear of the shell. )



Clearly this was extra work that could have been avoided if I had thought things through properly.

But at least the body shell was now sitting on the framework properly.

Right, I'm off for a pint with my best mate, cheers, Paul.
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  #2115  
Old 29th October 2015, 08:34
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I think there are few photos of the bonding process as we were all sh!*ing ourselves at this stage, it is such a huge milestone in the build.
Ps congratulations on knocking Towed off the number one spot for post , views and replies 163000 views is pretty impressive but the 106 pages was a pain to troll through in search of your wiring diagram.... Keep going. Pops
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  #2116  
Old 29th October 2015, 10:36
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Pops - Well I can now empathise with the worries other builders have at this stage (see below).

And I never wanted to knock Mister Towed off the top spot, as his inspirational build really deserved to be there.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"Bond... Body Shell Bond"

Badap ba daa ba da daa ba daa da deda daa...

I started the day by looking at how the tie down straps could be used to hold the body shell in place.



Including how the rear passenger corner could be pulled into position.



I added some masking tape to the painted "over hang" sections on either side of the bulkhead.
( Sorry the photos I took of this were rubbish. )

The boot opening allows me to reach my hand in between the metal support plate and the body shell.



Which in turn, gives me a rough guide to how deep the bonding paste needs to be in this area (approx. 2cm max).

As I wanted to use enough paste for the job, without leaving too much excess paste left over to be squeezed out.

Well that was the theory anyway, but now it was time to make it work in practise.

So I propped up the body shell again.





Then added catalyst to the tubs of bonding paste I'd measured out the other day, before it was spread out in small "piles".







Note:
You can see where paste from the first tub had already started to change colour by the time I'd mixed up and applied the second tub.

Again, the theory was that these piles would be squeezed into the gaps by the body shell to make a solid join.

Then I removed the blocks & gently lowered the body shell into place and it felt like there was paste oozing around underneath.

As I went around the car tightening the tie down straps, a few of the straps snapped.

I had to tie knots in the straps until it was all held in place, with a few breeze blocks added for extra downward pressure.







So there you have it, some 3 years later than I originally expected, but the body shell is finally bonded into place.

Note:
Despite using my basic alignment tools, it was not possible to get the rear end perfectly aligned.
( As I felt I was putting too much strain on the tie down strap and didn't want to crack the body shell itself. )

Which means it is time to dig out one of my favourite quotes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxford1360 View Post
It's all looking good and solid - like a 50 year-old race car that has been into the hay bales a few times in its life - perfect.
And start working on a back story that includes a major rear end shunt back in '68.



By now the sky was getting dark and there was been rain promised in the forecast.



So I didn't want to push my luck and start adding the fibreglass "bridges" to the internal cockpit sides.

Instead I simply put the covers over everything, including the breeze blocks.



Not sure if I will have the chance to do any more work on the car today.

But, either way, as Pops mentioned in his reply, this is still a major landmark in this build and I am very relieved to have reached this point.

Until next time, take care, Paul.
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  #2117  
Old 29th October 2015, 12:18
a big scary monster a big scary monster is offline
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Well done Paul, hope this job is the final hump and its all coasting down hill from now on. Ed
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  #2118  
Old 29th October 2015, 13:18
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Good Job Paul This is a huge milestone and no more talk of moon rovers heheh you have an almost finished race car
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  #2119  
Old 29th October 2015, 14:41
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Very well done.
It's all down hill from here on in!!
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  #2120  
Old 29th October 2015, 17:53
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Great day Paul,
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