IVA - Windscreen Glass - E mark

Mike · #1 17th January 2011, 18:25

I spoke to VOSA today about their requirement for windscreen glass to be E marked. Apparently the dispensation to use BS marked glass, but not E marked was extended from 29th April 2010 to 28th April 2011.
I have broken my screen, before ever getting the car IVA'd, and wanted to fit a screen with a BS mark. Unless VOSA extend the dispensation again, which could happen but is certainly not assured, all new amateur built cars will have to have E marked screens.
If you are like me, building a very low volume car, getting a new screen could prove very expensive, as the screen manufacturers want to make a minimum run of 50 at a time!

cabrioman · #2 17th January 2011, 18:34

Hi Mike

Not sure I understand this. Why does the "E" number make so much difference to the cost, there are plenty of Cabrio owners that have had screens fitted by Auto Windscreens and the like as after build items that were not expensive.

Are you saying now all replacement screens have to be "E" marked and therefore Auto Windscreens et al can't supply unless you want to buy 50!

John

Mike · #3 17th January 2011, 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabrioman

Hi Mike

Not sure I understand this. Why does the "E" number make so much difference to the cost, there are plenty of Cabrio owners that have had screens fitted by Auto Windscreens and the like as after build items that were not expensive.

Are you saying now all replacement screens have to be "E" marked and therefore Auto Windscreens et al can't supply unless you want to buy 50!

John

Hi John

To get through the IVA after 29th April this year I will need an E mark, and Autowindscreen want to make a batch of 50.
I bought 3 screens, with BS marks which are fine up until 28th April, and fine on any registered Cabrio as a replacement.
Crazy , or what?!
However, I think unless I can sweet talk an IVA examiner he will fail my new BS marked windscreen.
Mike

morris · #4 17th January 2011, 20:50

Isn't the rule that you only need all these markings, wipers, washers, vents etc for IVA if you actually have a windscreen? I was under the impression that you don't need a windscreen for the test so you could just not bother installing it till after, or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

MartinClan · #5 18th January 2011, 07:34

I believe that, on the Cabrio, the windscreen and frame is almost part of the chasssis so it wouldn't be possible to build the car without it.

Mike - why not just get someone to engrave an E mark on it? Who is going to know?

Robin

cabrioman · #6 18th January 2011, 11:59

Not sure you could engrave a laminated screen without it cracking.

Mike

I assume you ordered 3 BS screens because it was a minimum order, if they are tinted and you want to sell one let me know as I would like to replace my Hunter screen as its not tinted.

John

Mike · #7 18th January 2011, 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by morris

Isn't the rule that you only need all these markings, wipers, washers, vents etc for IVA if you actually have a windscreen? I was under the impression that you don't need a windscreen for the test so you could just not bother installing it till after, or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

Morris

You raise a very good point.
I do not know the answer. I assume the Cabrio does not need it for structural strength therefore I suspect you could be right.
However, unlike the Sportster, the Cabrio was very clearly designed to have a front windscreen, so where will that leave me with the tester? Could he determine the car incomplete?

I am currently considering four options now:
* Try to source an E markd screen at reasonable cost
* Ask VOSA for an extended dispensation
* Ask Autoscreen to confirm that the glass supplied is the same as their E marked glass, but does not carry the marking
* Ask VOSA if I have to fit a windscreen for the test?

Does anyone have any other options?
Thank you Morris for a very good suggestion/option (I hope?)

Mike

Mike · #8 18th January 2011, 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabrioman

Not sure you could engrave a laminated screen without it cracking.

Mike

I assume you ordered 3 BS screens because it was a minimum order, if they are tinted and you want to sell one let me know as I would like to replace my Hunter screen as its not tinted.

John

John

I ordered two, but the guy made me three for cash. You are welcome to one.
There is a minor shade of tint, slightly greenish. I'll send you a pm.

I think it is possible to etch the screen, as these were cut from larger sheets of glass. The guy who made it did explain the difference between the front glass and the side screens in terms of hardness, thickness and being suitable for forward facing, but I did not take it all in if I'm honest. I think the side glass is hardened, and this cannot be cut, or trimmed, and I guess etched, The front is laminated to achieve the ball bearing test of being dropped from 15m without passing through the glass. He seemed to know his stuff, and that the BS was quite satisfactory for IVA up to 28th April 2011, and would continue to be the required standard for a replacement screen.
Mike

peterux · #9 18th January 2011, 20:56

Mike,

this is a long shot as I am not an expert but I wonder if you get the British Standards Institute to confirm your BS marked glass meets the same requirements of the European Requirements 43 for an 'e' mark?

Is there a British Standard number on your glass (e.g. BS1234). There are are often equivalent European standards and BS standards. Not sure what kind of a company you work for but if they have a Quality Manager or a Health and Safety Manager they'll be a wealth of knowledge on international standards. BSI have a website that might help.

About 10 minutes of Googling suggest that BS AU 178a:1992 is the same as European regulation 43, but I suggest you do a bit more research.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehi...dus4576?page=4
http://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDeta...00000000262853

Or if that fails lobby your local MP and tell them your fed up with EEC imposing standards over our good old BS standards

Chris Cussen · #10 19th January 2011, 07:08

I might have missed something here, but have you asked Marlin if they have any 'E' marked screens?

The screen surround on the cabrio is made of a very substantial one piece lump of (i think) ally. I'm sure the tested will consider the car incomplete without a screen fitted, and I think it greatly increases the ridgidity of the chassis.

Mike · #11 19th January 2011, 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Cussen

I might have missed something here, but have you asked Marlin if they have any 'E' marked screens?

.............Life is too short................

wampilgrim · #12 30th September 2012, 19:52

We have just had an IVA test carried out on a Pilgrim Bulldog..We failed Ignition leads not marked with trade name and trade description!
Our drivers seat height (cobras) fell short of the 700 mm from point R
We also had problems with the 100mm sphere and the radius of curvature of at least 2.5mm Our instruments chrome surround was deemed to sharp as was the stalks on wing mirrors.
Front windscreen failed big time it was marked with a BS code was laminated so where doI get a screen for the DOG.

peterux · #13 30th September 2012, 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by wampilgrim

We have just had an IVA test carried out on a Pilgrim Bulldog..We failed Ignition leads not marked with trade name and trade description!
Our drivers seat height (cobras) fell short of the 700 mm from point R
We also had problems with the 100mm sphere and the radius of curvature of at least 2.5mm Our instruments chrome surround was deemed to sharp as was the stalks on wing mirrors.
Front windscreen failed big time it was marked with a BS code was laminated so where doI get a screen for the DOG.

Hi Wam,
sorry to hear about your IVA failures. I've heard that Cobra seats are marginal and suggest you leave a heavy toolbox on the seat for about 2 weeks before the test.

You can get IVA approved instrument bezels or recess them a bit into the dashboard if possible.

But I'm particularly interested in the last point about the windscreen....

In the version 7.01 of the IVA manual on page 13 it states....

45 Safety glass
Exemption end date : 29/04/2013

Glass that with complies with British Standard: BS857 or BS857/2,
BS5282, BSAU178 and is marked accordingly will be considered
acceptable for the purpose of IVA.

Amateur
built
vehicles
only

Did you submit the vehicle as Amateur built?
Does the windscreen have any of these markings?

Mike · #14 30th September 2012, 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by wampilgrim

We have just had an IVA test carried out on a Pilgrim Bulldog..We failed Ignition leads not marked with trade name and trade description!
Our drivers seat height (cobras) fell short of the 700 mm from point R
We also had problems with the 100mm sphere and the radius of curvature of at least 2.5mm Our instruments chrome surround was deemed to sharp as was the stalks on wing mirrors.
Front windscreen failed big time it was marked with a BS code was laminated so where doI get a screen for the DOG.

Sorry to hear of your failed IVA test - the leads and seat should not present too much of a problem - can you borrow some approved seats from someone if necessary?
I solved my Cabrio windscreen 'E' problem by having a screen cut from a Landrover screen which had an E mark on it - could you do the same? I don't know how wide or deep a Bulldog screen is compared to the Cabrio? If you ring up one of the big national auto screen suppliers with the size you require, they may be able to help you.
With regard to the instrument bezels, I have made an extra plywood gash dash which fits around the instruments, and is slightly deeper than the raised bezels:

The top cover of the dash fits over this and traps it and will mean this cannot be removed by the tester, so can not be considered temporary, and his radius tester will not be able to get at the radii.

Mike · #15 30th September 2012, 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterux

But I'm particularly interested in the last point about the windscreen....

In the version 7.01 of the IVA manual on page 13 it states....

45 Safety glass
Exemption end date : 29/04/2013

Glass that with complies with British Standard: BS857 or BS857/2,
BS5282, BSAU178 and is marked accordingly will be considered
acceptable for the purpose of IVA.

Hey Peter, does this mean you are going to try to get the Sabre ready for IVA by 29/04/2013? That's ambitious

!!!
Assuming you plan to take a little longer, what are you planning to do for a windscreen? Or does yours have an E marked windscreen already?
Mike

Chris Cussen · #16 1st October 2012, 07:23

My Cobras just squeaked through the IVA test. They were a couple of mm out too, but the tester was lienient and surcumbed to the agrument that the seat cushions would compress with use, also I was the first IVA test he had performed and was not 100% certain of the criteria.

peterux · #17 1st October 2012, 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike

Hey Peter, does this mean you are going to try to get the Sabre ready for IVA by 29/04/2013? That's ambitious

!!!
Assuming you plan to take a little longer, what are you planning to do for a windscreen? Or does yours have an E marked windscreen already?
Mike

Hi Mike,
that's exactly why I have an interest in this failure! My Sabre will certainly not be ready for IVA before next April, but I've noticed that VOSA have extended the exemption on BS marked windscreen every year for the last three years. I'm hopeful that they continue to do this in future years as I think the BS and EC specs are the same, it's just the marking that is different.
My windscreen is BS marked but not E marked. My side windows are E marked but I've not yet checked if they are the right marks as there seem to be about eight variants of E marks.
My plan is to remove the windscreen, so I don't crack it getting the body off and it'll have to come out anyway for the re-painting. If the exemption is still in place when I finally get to IVA (

) it'll go back in. If not it'll be used as a template for a new one and possible sold on or kept as a spare.
The screen is flat but has a complex curve at the bottom edge so I'll need someone to cut it with a curve. When lI replaced the cracked screen in my Sportster I found an extremely knowledgeable guy in Chertsey who runs a windscreen fitting company but does specials himself for vintage and exotic cars. He was not cheap but really specialised. A lot of the Ferrari and Lambo owners go to him because they don't want to entrust their cars to the national fitters. (Not much help to Wam who seems to be located in NI)
Cutting it from a flat Landrover screen as you suggest may be another option.

So back to wampilgrim..... was your screen BS marked and Amateur build?

...peter

P.S. another option for the Sabre is to see if ACL have any e-marked screens. http://www.automotivecreation.com/

cabrioman · #18 2nd October 2012, 20:35

Mike

If you still have one of your original 3 tinted screens, can I put my name down for one.

The "bare" Hunter chassis got even more bare, as I decided after having a good look at what was left of the Marlin powder coating to put the POR15 back on the shelf and get it sand blasted and re-powder coated. Hence the windscreen had to be smashed out and its booked with the powder coater for end of October.

John

Mike · #19 2nd October 2012, 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabrioman

Mike

If you still have one of your original 3 tinted screens, can I put my name down for one.

The "bare" Hunter chassis got even more bare, as I decided after having a good look at what was left of the Marlin powder coating to put the POR15 back on the shelf and get it sand blasted and re-powder coated. Hence the windscreen had to be smashed out and its booked with the powder coater for end of October.

John

Hi John

The replacement screen I have fitted now was cut out of a Landrover screen (to get the "All Important E mark"). As you don't need the E mark for your Hunter you may find there are other options too. If you ask one of the national suppliers, you may be surprised what they'll let you have a tinted one for.

I'll be very interested to see your chassis once you've had it properly treated, and then powder coated. I have been lying under my Cabrio tidying cable runs and fixings tonight, and was just reflecting on how poor Marlin's chassis powder coating is.

Mike

Chris Cussen · #20 3rd October 2012, 06:48

You telling me about the powder coating? Part of this summers work was scraping off loads of it and treating the bare metal before painting with Hammerlite. It seems to scratch very easily and as soon as any mositure gets in it tracks along under the surface.

The only good area was protected by a slight oil leak!