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Go Back   Madabout Kitcars Forum > Mad Build Area > Miglia Builds and discussion

Miglia Builds and discussion Miglia bodied builds

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  #21  
Old 28th June 2015, 04:20
Carib Classics Carib Classics is offline
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Default Wheel arches issues

Hey guys, I'm really pleased this car came up for sale and generated this thread.
I'm about to cut and extend my spitfire chassis, just awaiting my subframe delivery next week? ( mike promise )
This is for all who have built.
Do I extend the wheel base on the conservative side or be more liberal with my millimetre measuring?
All the data that I have seen, says 8.5 inches longer, or do I make it 9 inches?
Lots of thoughts please.
Thanks
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  #22  
Old 28th June 2015, 10:00
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Hi, my advice would be do not cut the Spitfire chassis.

If I'm reading this right you have 2 chooses.
(A) get a Herald chassis.
(B) cut down the original Miglia body work and cage frame to suit the Spitfire.

You have to bear-in-mind the Spitfire and Herald chassis are by their very nature designed to "flex evenly".
By welding a join in it you are creating a "stiff" area which will eventually cause cracks around the join. I know this because I have done it!!!

Option (A), most of the Spitfire bits will fit a Herald chassis and those that don't can be found cheap on E-Bay.
The Miglia cage frame, body, gear stick ect are designed for the Herald chassis so it makes sense to use the correct chassis.
Your build will be quicker, easier, less stressful and maybe enjoyable.

Option (B), If you welding and engineer skills are good enough to cut-and-shut a chassis then the cage frame would not be a problem.
As for the body work just look at some of the threads on this forum to find out how. While doing this you can also sort out some of the alignment issues.
Finaly as a bonus you will have a unique car that you yourself have created out of the original.

Only my opinion but above all, have fun and enjoy building it.
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  #23  
Old 28th June 2015, 13:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micky1mo View Post
my advice would be do not cut the Spitfire chassis.
+1

If you cut & extend the main chassis rails then there is no escaping an IVA test.

The Miglias (and the Sammio / Ribbles) were never designed with passing this test in mind.

That is not to say they couldn't be made to pass it, but is seems like a lot of extra hassle to me.

Good luck, Paul.
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  #24  
Old 28th June 2015, 16:54
8 Valve Ed 8 Valve Ed is offline
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I would even venture to say it would be impossible. Unless you have a very good engineering qualification and can certify the resulting strength and flexibility of your work to the standards to satisfy the examiner or can find somebody who can, it will never pass an IVA and it shouldn't pass an MOT either unless you completely reconstruct the connection which is almost impossible on a Triumph chassis. We aren't talking about a rust patch repairer here, which may be acceptable for the MOT depending on where it is (some parts of the chassis can't be repaired, I am told).

I have installed the Ford Transit chassis extending kits on their pickups and it's no minor procedure. They are plated with sandwich plates, inside and out and all bolted, 10mm bolts into captive nuts attached to the inner plates, welding is NOT allowed for the reasons Micky has mentioned above.

Modding the body on the other hand would be a doddle and nobody (in authority) will question it.

Good luck with the build!
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  #25  
Old 29th June 2015, 09:13
Carib Classics Carib Classics is offline
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Default Cutting Spitfire Chassis

Quote:
Originally Posted by micky1mo View Post
Hi, my advice would be do not cut the Spitfire chassis.

If I'm reading this right you have 2 chooses.
(A) get a Herald chassis.
(B) cut down the original Miglia body work and cage frame to suit the Spitfire.

You have to bear-in-mind the Spitfire and Herald chassis are by their very nature designed to "flex evenly".
By welding a join in it you are creating a "stiff" area which will eventually cause cracks around the join. I know this because I have done it!!!

Option (A), most of the Spitfire bits will fit a Herald chassis and those that don't can be found cheap on E-Bay.
The Miglia cage frame, body, gear stick ect are designed for the Herald chassis so it makes sense to use the correct chassis.
Your build will be quicker, easier, less stressful and maybe enjoyable.

Option (B), If you welding and engineer skills are good enough to cut-and-shut a chassis then the cage frame would not be a problem.
As for the body work just look at some of the threads on this forum to find out how. While doing this you can also sort out some of the alignment issues.
Finaly as a bonus you will have a unique car that you yourself have created out of the original.

Only my opinion but above all, have fun and enjoy building it.
Thanks for the info. Can you expand on the problems you encountered?
The guys at the garage where we play with our classics think its doable.
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  #26  
Old 29th June 2015, 09:18
Carib Classics Carib Classics is offline
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Default Extending with strength

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8 Valve Ed View Post
I would even venture to say it would be impossible. Unless you have a very good engineering qualification and can certify the resulting strength and flexibility of your work to the standards to satisfy the examiner or can find somebody who can, it will never pass an IVA and it shouldn't pass an MOT either unless you completely reconstruct the connection which is almost impossible on a Triumph chassis. We aren't talking about a rust patch repairer here, which may be acceptable for the MOT depending on where it is (some parts of the chassis can't be repaired, I am told).

I have installed the Ford Transit chassis extending kits on their pickups and it's no minor procedure. They are plated with sandwich plates, inside and out and all bolted, 10mm bolts into captive nuts attached to the inner plates, welding is NOT allowed for the reasons Micky has mentioned above.

Modding the body on the other hand would be a doddle and nobody (in authority) will question it.

Good luck with the build!
Your comment has given me reason to give the project more thought.
I have found a matching section of steel, we intend to plate the appropriate joints, and the guys at the garage think its doable? Yes I will be building a special, but are not all these kit cars specials?
Was you experience of structural chassis extension so negative?
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  #27  
Old 29th June 2015, 09:24
Carib Classics Carib Classics is offline
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Default Never Pass the IVA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8 Valve Ed View Post
I would even venture to say it would be impossible. Unless you have a very good engineering qualification and can certify the resulting strength and flexibility of your work to the standards to satisfy the examiner or can find somebody who can, it will never pass an IVA and it shouldn't pass an MOT either unless you completely reconstruct the connection which is almost impossible on a Triumph chassis. We aren't talking about a rust patch repairer here, which may be acceptable for the MOT depending on where it is (some parts of the chassis can't be repaired, I am told).

I have installed the Ford Transit chassis extending kits on their pickups and it's no minor procedure. They are plated with sandwich plates, inside and out and all bolted, 10mm bolts into captive nuts attached to the inner plates, welding is NOT allowed for the reasons Micky has mentioned above.

Modding the body on the other hand would be a doddle and nobody (in authority) will question it.

Good luck with the build!
As all these cars are specials, and as Kit Cars go, they have always has strange thing done to them in order to achieve the final product. Whether its with the body or the chassis.
With the subframe bolted and welded to the original chassis it will becoming an integral part of the final car structure, I would have thought its would be fine. ( this is my first build from scratch and I really welcome your experienced practical knowledge)
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  #28  
Old 29th June 2015, 09:48
oxford1360 oxford1360 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carib Classics View Post
As all these cars are specials, and as Kit Cars go, they have always has strange thing done to them in order to achieve the final product.
Not true at all. No Sammio/Ribble/Miglia featured on this forum has done anything to the main chassis. And, there is a reason for this............the law is quite clear.

People have offered their advice unanimously (don't cut the chassis). You can heed this (there is a lot of experience on here) or not. If you do not, the chances of you producing a legal and roadworthy car reduce to almost zero.

If this is your first build, do everything you can to keep it simple.

Best of luck.
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  #29  
Old 29th June 2015, 10:15
Carib Classics Carib Classics is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oxford1360 View Post
Not true at all. No Sammio/Ribble/Miglia featured on this forum has done anything to the main chassis. And, there is a reason for this............the law is quite clear.

People have offered their advice unanimously (don't cut the chassis). You can heed this (there is a lot of experience on here) or not. If you do not, the chances of you producing a legal and roadworthy car reduce to almost zero.

If this is your first build, do everything you can to keep it simple.

Best of luck.
I will try and find what the Law says. Can you point me in the right direction. I just need to be sure. Thanks.
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  #30  
Old 29th June 2015, 13:53
8 Valve Ed 8 Valve Ed is offline
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Sorry, been distracted this morning...

ACE are a well known authority who explain the complexities of the VOSA and DVLA regulations in every day language.

http://www.the-ace.org.uk/chassis-an...tion/#more-147

They also seek and receive clarification from VOSA on what seem to be 'grey areas' on our behalf.

If you are a beginner then you would be well advised to read as many pages from their site as you feel able.

http://www.the-ace.org.uk

If I had read and acted upon the info available there, I may have avoided wasting well over 2000 and 1,100 hours building a car which was never going on the road. I have been building cars, specials, diggers and trucks all my life, I'm approaching 70 now and I am still learning something new every day!

Remember; Keep It Simple!
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  #31  
Old 29th June 2015, 17:14
8 Valve Ed 8 Valve Ed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carib Classics View Post
I will try and find what the Law says. Can you point me in the right direction. I just need to be sure. Thanks.
The trouble is it isn't 'law', what we have to comply with are regulations, rules and 'directives', which the various government agencies decide are appropriate. There is nothing in law as far as I know regarding the '8 point rule' but if you disregard it you won't get your V5c. They hold the whip hand and we have to comply.

If you dig through all the stuff that ACE have assembled you will find there are a lot of things which some regard as normal mods, like bob-tailing Land Rovers and modifying VW Beetle chassis/floorpans which used to be common modifications, fitting a Webber airbox in a Mini for example, VOSA will revoke the V5c on the spot and the only way of getting the car, which will probably be a pride and joy, back on the road will mean an IVA, which depending on the vehicle and the mod may not be possible.

This can happen at an MOT or a roadside check. VOSA regularly 'sit in' on MOT's and they know what to look for on certain vehicles.
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  #32  
Old 29th June 2015, 21:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carib Classics View Post
... With the subframe bolted and welded to the original chassis it will becoming an integral part of the final car structure...
The Miglias and Sammios were both designed so that the internal framework is bolted to the chassis.

The fibreglass bodywork is then bonded to the framework to effectively form a new body shell that could be removed if required.

It is the fact that it can be removed that allows these cars to avoid IVA by following the "re-body" rules.

IMHO the argument about whether it is technically possible to cut and extend the chassis is a red herring.

Even if you can technically do it, you are still left with no choice but to declare it and get an IVA test.
( Or your insurance will be invalid as your would not be road legal without the IVA. )

Obviously there are plenty of cars on the roads that are not legal.

But I would hope no one on here would publicly suggest you follow them.

Good luck, Paul.

PS
I hope this doesn't come across as trying to lecture you, that is not my intention.
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  #33  
Old 19th July 2015, 20:31
The 1958 Rocker The 1958 Rocker is offline
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8 Valve Ed,
I have it from a contact in the DVSA as they now are that all the decat, bobtailing and shortening mods are going to be banned, along with rechecking that "historic (tax exempt) Cars" meet the eight point rule. If not, impounded and owner has to reregister,and iva/sva before they can have their car back. Exemption will cease on all modified cars like these. This is why its so crucial to build the Sammios/Ribbles/Miglias as designed. Soon us vehicle inspectors will be liable for confirming "correct build" with the obvious responsibility for turning a blind eye.
The 1958 Rocker
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  #34  
Old 20th July 2015, 09:48
Marc F Marc F is offline
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Best I re-register mine this week then - mine easily meets the 8 point rule - it is using the unmodified Spit chassis, engine, gearbox, rear axle, suspension and most other parts (ie seats, electrics, fuel tank, dials, steering). But will be interesting to see how the process pans out.

Thanks for the heads-up

Last edited by Marc F; 20th July 2015 at 09:49.. Reason: typos - oops
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  #35  
Old 20th July 2015, 10:30
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Hi just reg my miglia got the new v 5 back in 9 days just sent two pic of car one of chassl mlkes recit and a receipt for selling old body plus the form
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  #36  
Old 20th July 2015, 11:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rattler View Post
Hi just reg my miglia got the new v 5 back in 9 days just sent two pic of car one of chassl mlkes recit and a receipt for selling old body plus the form
Rattler, was your car MOTd or still SORNd when you registered your Miglia?
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  #37  
Old 20th July 2015, 18:04
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Hi ox no mot but on sorn
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  #38  
Old 21st July 2015, 06:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The 1958 Rocker View Post
8 Valve Ed,
I have it from a contact in the DVSA as they now are that all the decat, bobtailing and shortening mods are going to be banned, along with rechecking that "historic (tax exempt) Cars" meet the eight point rule. If not, impounded and owner has to reregister,and iva/sva before they can have their car back. Exemption will cease on all modified cars like these. This is why its so crucial to build the Sammios/Ribbles/Miglias as designed. Soon us vehicle inspectors will be liable for confirming "correct build" with the obvious responsibility for turning a blind eye.
The 1958 Rocker
There was a thread on "Rod 'n' Sods" about this recently and there seems to be a lot of confusion.

My (very) limited understanding is that the problem area is "Reconstructed Classics" and linked to problems with the Bugatti owners club.

The story goes that some owners of very expensive "original" cars were not happy when cars rebuild around a just a handful of old parts were being accepted by the DVLA as being "reconstructed classics" and getting an age related (and therefore historic) number plates. So if you knew what you were doing you could build several "old" Bugattis from one car and make a lot of money. The problem was that unless they were using an original Bugatti chassis each time, it would not be legal under the 8 point rule and there require IVA & maybe even a Q plate. So I understand that the DVLA were "tipped off" and it has all "kicked off".

So whilst some people have received letters like the one below. The key point is that the problem is not that with the "historic vehicle" part, but rather the "recorded date of manufacture" part, hence the confusion.

So in the case of my Sammio Cordite, whilst I now have "Triumph Swordfish" on the V5C, it is still made in 1980. As far as I can tell, I would only have a problem if I'd managed to convince the DVLA is was made in 1955.

Hope that helps, Paul.



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  #39  
Old 21st July 2015, 17:08
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If you need to contact the guy in the know on Rods and sods his name is Kevin his forum name is Kapri

He is very clued up. ....what he doesn't know isn't worth knowing
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  #40  
Old 22nd July 2015, 07:44
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Originally Posted by redratbike View Post
... He is very clued up. ....what he doesn't know isn't worth knowing
+1

Kevin also worked with Gary on the original Sammio Spyder concept so that it became a "bolt on" body shell (internal framework bonded to fibreglass outer shell) to keep within the re-body rules and avoid IVA.
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