Dino V6 conversion

Dai · #1 3rd January 2016, 15:53

Hello all, I've recently purchased Dehavillands prototype Dino
I met the Dehavilland team at Stoneleigh last year, and was very impressed with their enthusiasm and their product.
With a new kit a little out of my budget right now, I snapped up the opportunity to purchase their prototype car when it came up for sale with only a couple of hundred miles on the clock.
Dehavilland have upgraded some features since building this car which I intend to update in time, but for now I'm going to use the car as it is, with the intention of starting a V6 conversion towards the end of the summer
I know there are are a few Dino replicas running around with Alfa V6s, and from what I have read, there are issues with driveshaft angles, and clearance to the engine cover .
If there are any members on here with a V6 Dino, Alfa or other , I'd be very interested in seeing some pics and learning about any issues
Has anyone fitted a V6 in a Dehavilland yet ?
Still trying to decide if an Alfa is the best engine to fit or not?

Cheers ,
Dai

NeilF355 · #2 6th January 2016, 15:00

Hi Dai
Does your car have the separate front and rear subframes?
If so I would have thought that V6 engine mountings would be different for your car to other Dino replicas which have a complete chassis. As a result of which I'm not sure that engine height and half shaft issues of these types of car would be relevant to you.

I have just purchased a part completed Classic replicas Dino with the Alfa V6 and it looks like there is an issue with the height of the engine. This is something that the previous owner was obviously wrestling with as there are no rear shock absorbers fitted as yet. You can see in the pictures how the top engine mount protrudes from the top of the engine bay

I'm reasonably happy with the current angle of my half shafts.

DSCF2429.jpg

DSCF2411.jpg

Dai · #3 6th January 2016, 20:40

Hello Neil, thanks for the photos !
Yes, my Dehavilland car is fitted with the subframes from the MGTF
So I should be able to modify or fabricate a subframe to mount the V6
I guess the issue is if the engine has to be mounted lower to gain clearance to the engine cover, the drive shaft angle will increase
My understanding of driveshafts is that they should be close to horizontal at ride height so that the angle is similar in bump and rebound.
If the engine sits lower, the driveshaft angle will increase and will increase further at full bump

NeilF355 · #4 8th January 2016, 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dai

My understanding of driveshafts is that they should be close to horizontal at ride height so that the angle is similar in bump and rebound.
If the engine sits lower, the driveshaft angle will increase and will increase further at full bump

Hello Dai
I have measured (as accurately as I could) the distance from the centre line of the gearbox driveshaft to the highest point of the engine. It comes to 590mm.
So assuming that you want your driveshafts to be horizontal if you measure 590mm up from the centre of your wheel that should tell you where the top of the engine will be.

Dai · #5 8th January 2016, 17:34

Great, thanks Neil, will get measuring this weekend !

massa · #6 16th January 2016, 19:32

hello lads I have a deon scoperto fitted with a alfa v6 just passed its test did bout 3k in her last year no issues just had cambelt done if your in my neck of the woods you are welcome to view car if its helps regards dave, post code ts14

Dai · #7 17th January 2016, 07:30

Hello Massa, unlikely I will be up your way anytime soon, but that's very kind, and will take you up on that if I do find myself north !
How is the clearance to the engine cover and the driveshaft angles ?

Drsquashdavid · #8 17th January 2016, 09:28

Hi Dai
I have been re- designing and rebuilding a Deon Mirabeau for the past 2:5 years. I changed the V6 Cologne engine for a V6 Alfa 24 valve. The Mirabeau had ,already a raised canopy . Despite this I have ended up creating a further 10 mm raise to allow clearance of the plenum chamber. I spent considerable time on engine position ,mounts and advice on drive shaft anglulation to try reduce chance problem. The side that needs more consideration is the nearside as it is the shortest and therefore any change of engine height exaggerates the driveshaft angles on this side. I will try load a couple photos of driveshaft angles and the engine canopy height required in my car.
Best wishes
Dave

Drsquashdavid · #9 17th January 2016, 09:31

Hi Dai
Canopy:--
Dave

massa · #10 17th January 2016, 09:32

hello dai, the engine clearance is no issue not even close, as for the drive shaft angles looking from back to front the drivers side drive shaft is straight as you could want, the other side there is more of a angle but nothing that concerns me I can measure that angle if you so wish, if you pm me with your email I,ll send you some pics of my car and those drive shafts regards dave

Drsquashdavid · #11 17th January 2016, 10:16

Hi again
I have just measured to best I can ,height from middle drive shaft leaving gearbox to top of plenum chamber on my CF 3 2002 V6 Alfa engine = approx 565 mm.
Not sure helps really.
I have no answers , just my own struggle.
Another view of driveshafts ( NB is on a lift with suspension in full drop) and engine height.
A later consideration, I hadn't thought too much about at the time of this was exhaust design and clearance ie the lower the engine the tighter gas flow bends , hence does affect ground clearance

NeilF355 · #12 17th January 2016, 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by massa

the engine clearance is no issue not even close,

Hi Dave
Does your car have the single rear cover or does it have separate ones for the engine and the boot?

I've PM'd you
Neil

Dai · #13 17th January 2016, 11:46

Thanks for the photos Dave (Drsquashdavid), very useful.
I don't want to alter my engine cover, and would like to retain parallel driveshafts at ride height to avoid problems. Your LH drive shaft looks straight on full droop, I guess the angle would be significant at ride height if you needed to drop it enough to retain a standard engine cover ?

Massa, I'll PM you for some pics, otherAlfa installations I have seen so far has the driveshaft angle and/or cover clearance issues, so would be interested in seeing your installation

My car being a Dehavilland has the MG engine and subframe. I'm considering using the KV6 engine which uses the exact same gearbox that is in my car. Would just need to modify the subframe to take the KV6 engine mounts. Using this would ensure perfect driveshaft angles, and the KV6 is a wide V, so there should be plenty of height clearance.
Ideally I'd like to fit 3 down draft throttle bodies instead of a plenum

Drsquashdavid · #14 17th January 2016, 13:49

Hi Neil
When I bought the car it had a full length rear canopy.
Yes it has been split, a carrier made to act to direct water , carry the hinges for the luggage cover and the latches for the engine cover.
Then there was all the release cabling to design!!!!!

Haven't found your PM yet

I did buy seperate engine and luggage covers with the intent of using them, but amongst the reasons I didn't was the problem of overcoming the engine position , height and canopy clearance.
BW
Dave

Dai · #15 17th January 2016, 14:42

Thanks for the photos Massa! looks a great car !

Where your engine cover is raised and one piece, mine is flat and two piece
The angle on the driveshaft would concern me, but I suppose if you're not have issues then it must be fine !
However the angle would have to increase significantly if I was to drop the engine lower to keep my existing flat engine cover

massa · #16 17th January 2016, 15:50

ye point taken dai, I did about 3k in the car I wouldn't want any other engine in than the v6 alfa that exhaust note is glorious, regards dave

Dai · #17 17th January 2016, 16:45

Well your car looks great, and if you've already done 3000 miles, I cant see you having driveshaft issues. I agree with you about the Alfa sound too !

rossnzwpi · #18 29th January 2016, 20:29

Hi Dai, while I'm a huge fan of the Alfa V6 and would love to see you put one in your Dehavilland it does make sense to consider the KV6 from a Rover/MG/Kia. Theres a page on the MGF website where data about such a swap is gathered, including a schematic, overlaying the KV6 on the K4 fitted to an MGF:

http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2...ne_options.htm

If you google the GTM libra fitted with the KV6 you'll find plenty of photos, videos, build diaries that may be of interest too.

Incidentally it would be valuable for everyone here trying to plan a V6 transplant if you could take some photos and measurements of your car. What is the height from the ground to the engine cover in a Dehavilland, for example? What is the track and what is the wheelbase (is it 2280mm like a Dino 206GT or 2340 like a 246GT?)
Best wishes for your project.
Ross

rossnzwpi · #19 29th January 2016, 21:48

I made this quick picture. I think it would be really helpful if people could take some photos and measurements. (I know its hard to take photos if your project is not mobile though). That will help people plan their engine swaps. We can compare the real Dino to JH Classics/Deon, Scoperto, Classic Replicas, Dehavilland, Cascu's.
Cheers
Ross

Dai · #20 30th January 2016, 05:33

Hi Ross, thanks for the info, very much appreciated
I'll try and get some measurements, the car is very mobile as I'm using it every day !
I've only recently bought the car, so am going to use it this year as it is with the aim to fit a V6 next winter. Will give me some time to research and choose the best engine to fit
Cheers Dai