Oxford build - Page 15

oxford1360 · #**281** 20th June 2013, 13:02

I think the info is correct - it's consistent with other sources.

The uprated/shorter springs that are available through Canley (and others) are all advertised at 330. If I compare my new springs with the original 13/60 springs (203lb) they do not feel any harder at all.......when I do my incredibly reliable bounce test.

Given that so little is on offer, I shall road test the ones that I have and then decide what to do. I may have to cut some standards. I'm sure I will find a buyer for the "uprated" pair - once I have returned them to a salable colour.

I accept that my approach isn't particularly scientific, but I will enjoy experimenting. There are plenty of threads such as this one -
http://club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/f...?m-1294420747/
in which members have changed to 330 (or even 440!) and say that there is not much difference! Very odd.

garyh · #**282** 20th June 2013, 13:04

V, my Vitesse is 330lb, what is the standard length? 12"

I have seen these on ebay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Faulkners-...item5d406e6fe0

Viatron · #**283** 20th June 2013, 13:48

Only problem is that i think a spitfire spring is 2.68" id, spoke direct to faulkner last week and got a price to make me custom springs im thonking probably 10.5 inch freelength as i have fully adjustable front shocks so can go up or down a bit from there, was going to go dor around 220 lb but am not so sure now :-(

garyh · #**284** 20th June 2013, 14:51

Her's a list of spring sizes

http://clubtriumph.eu/cgi-bin/forum1...?m-1168516251/

Looking at this my Vitesse springs are 12 1/2" free length and 229lb rate...

oxford1360 · #**285** 20th June 2013, 21:48

Bought these this week.

I have a full set of Lucas L488s for the rear, but I quite like the look of these as they have a shape to their back edge which means that they might fit neatly either horizontally or vertically. I shall report back.

They are from a Renault 4 - only the lenses - and I will have to put together some reflectors.

garyh · #**286** 21st June 2013, 07:55

Something polished with bulb holders, how do you make them... Did you look at the spring rates on that link I sent to V and O?

oxford1360 · #**287** 21st June 2013, 08:43

I may make the reflectors out of some old inners from a Herald. But, only if I choose to use them. I may well go for the period Lucas set that I have. The main reason that I like the Renault set is that they have an integral reflector.

Springs......unless you are going to change your suspension more radically, the reason that you need to go stiffer when shortening is to prevent your suspension going solid. Apologies if I am teaching my grandmother to suck eggs but.......for the sake of simplicity let's assume 200lb standard springs.

If you load-up the suspension under cornering with say 600lb of load, your springs will be compressed by 3 inches. If you remove an inch of travel in order to lower your car, and then expose it to 600lb of load, you will have "compressed" everything by 4 inches in total. This could be enough for you to hit the bump stops on your shockers, or worse, for something to go solid, e.g. a wishbone reaches the limit of its travel. If you are putting 600lb through the suspension when this happens, it is likely that your lovely vehicle will stop going in the direction you want it to go, and it will seek out a wall or tree.

There are numerous ways to overcome this (if you want a book on suspension, I recommend Race Car Engineering and Mechanics by Paul Van Valkenburgh or anything by Alan Stanniforth). However, we are dealing with a Herald, not a race car. That said, the Herald/Spitfire front suspension is brilliant.........as long as you don't bugger around with it too much. So, to be safe and simple, it makes sense to stiffen when you shorten, i.e. if I change to 1" shorter 300lb springs and exert 600lb of load, they will compress by 2". If we then "add" the 1" reduction in length we come to a total "compression" of 3".....which is the same as when we compressed the original 200lb springs with 600lb of load. As I said, this is a massive simplification, but it is a good starting point for when you are thinking about what you are actually doing .

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be many off-the-shelf options. I have just gone with what is available. I shall report back on how it works when I get on the road....eventually.

And, there are other things to consider......not least the fact that our cars should be significantly lighter than the original donor. Unless you have access to a Herald simulator, I think it is a case of trying out "sensible" changes and then refining them once you can start testing them.

All of the above is one of the joys of self-building - increasing knowledge and experience.....an d f*cking-up every now and again.

Mister Towed · #**288** 21st June 2013, 09:28

As I understand it, shortening the standard springs increases their rate substantially although I've never tested that theory. One of the Triumph experts I've spoken to even suggested that I might need to change to early Spitfire springs to soften the front end.

Phil J cut his standard springs down by about 80mm and hasn't had a problem. He does fit the uprated front anti roll bar, however, and absolutely swears by that set up.

Just to muddy the waters though, his green car started out as a Courier van and he's uprated the engine from a piddly little four pot to a 2500cc straight six. As I'm not sure if the Courier springs were ever changed for Vitesse ones, he could have started out with softer springs in the first place.

Whatever settings he's ended up with, his car is pi$$ing all over race prep'd GT6's at the track.

I've cut my Vitesse springs down by 90mm - that's to the point where they would be loose at full extension if I hadn't put both the big plastic 'washers' on the damper side of the suspension turret, rather than one above the damper and one above the turret how Triumph intended (hope that makes sense).

I am a little concerned about 'bottoming out' the shocks, but my plan is just to drive very carefully at first and only start to test the limits of the suspension on roads with big, soft run-off areas and no traffic.

Should be on the road soooon, so I'll keep you posted.

oxford1360 · #**289** 21st June 2013, 15:50

I have also gone for the thicker ARB which everybody seems to say is the way to go.

Although my post isn't clear, when I was talking about shorter springs I was talking about manufactured shorter springs rather than springs that have been cut. So, if you are buying shorter springs, I think it is sensible to go for stiffer springs to avoid something going solid.

Strange as it is to grasp, shortening (by cutting) a spring does make it stiffer - the explanations are out there. If you need to convince yourself, put a spring on your bathroom scales and wedge a bar in the top coil and compress it. Then put the bar a few coils further down (imagining that you have cut off the coils above) and try and compress it by the same amount. You will need to apply more force to achieve the same compression.

Without proper bench equipment (and given the age of some of the springs that are being cut) it will always be difficult to get it right first time. It's a case of trial and error until you are get it right, and careful driving until you do.

garyh · #**290** 21st June 2013, 15:59

So, O, my springs are 12.5 - 229lb. So, i going for 10.5 - 250lb not to different as i want 50's style feeling and the body is now lighter.
Anyway, what else have you done?

oxford1360 · #**291** 21st June 2013, 16:09

If I'm honest I know b*gger all, and certainly not enough to give advice.

I have gone for the shorter front springs and a 1" lowering block at the back. I will be running standard shockers until I have done a few miles. I will then consider adjustables (I didn't want fancy new shockers sitting on the car for two years before they got used properly). I have the front anti rollbar from a later Spit (I think it is 7/8"). I also have the rear swing spring from the same car.

So, a few changes from a standard Herald, and I'm running 15" wheels with a decent side wall of tyre, a solid rack mount, and poly bushes. Who knows what the bloody hell it will feel like. I'm certainly not expecting it to be a peach from the start.

Your starting point looks OK to me.

garyh · #**292** 21st June 2013, 16:13

it all make sense to me.... all mine wheel be standard but new. With a bit of lowering.

oxford1360 · #**293** 29th June 2013, 17:13

A change of pace down at The Glade with an afternoon of measuring and sitting and staring at chassis and floor pan.

The good news is that the Audi TT removable roll hoops are the perfect width.

I draped a piece of carpet over the chassis for protection and dragged the floorpan out and cut it to shape. You can see a duck-bill at the rear so that there is a layer of steel over the spinning propshaft. The "bill" will be strengthed/supported by attaching it to the rear frame.

I balanced the MX5 fuel tank on a block of wood to work out its position. By good fortune it is the same width as the diff hanger which will make it easier when building the frame support.

I now need to make some sketches/drawings and I plan to order my steel this week - a mix of 25x25 and 50x25 box section.

The floorpan needs some repairs and mods and it will then be blasted. I'm surprised how low the lowest part of the pan is; it sits well below the chassis rails, which is great because I want to sit as low as possible. Still not sure how much width I will have for seats.

I'm quite excited.

Viatron · #**294** 29th June 2013, 17:44

Looking good, why isnt the floorpan green......:-)

oxford1360 · #**295** 29th June 2013, 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viatron

Looking good, why isnt the floorpan green......:-)

Give me a chance!

It will be. Not sure whether I will carpet it. Race-car-me says, "no". Comfort-me says, "yes".

Mister Towed · #**296** 29th June 2013, 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by oxford1360

Give me a chance!

It will be. Not sure whether I will carpet it. Race-car-me says, "no". Comfort-me says, "yes".

I've gone with carpet to hide the rather lumpy floors I ended up with.

And don't worry, staring and thinking is good. I've done loads of it over the last twenty six months...

oxford1360 · #**297** 29th June 2013, 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Towed

I've gone with carpet to hide the rather lumpy floors I ended up with.

That's a good point; "Not-very-neat-welded-repairs-me" might also go for carpets.

oxford1360 · #**298** 2nd July 2013, 14:52

I am ready to buy the steel to make my frame and I went and had a look at some of the online sellers that offer free delivery on orders over £70.

I'm after the following, (but not just for the frame) -
6m of 50x25x2.5 box
18m of 25x25x2.5 box
3m of 75x6 flat bar

Online was ~£200

My local engineering firm who are very helpful can do it for me for £96 inc vat. And they would have cut it to length for the same price if I had been able to provide them with drawings......ha, ha.

That strikes me as quite a lot of metal for not much money.

froggyman · #**299** 2nd July 2013, 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by oxford1360

I am ready to buy the steel to make my frame and I went and had a look at some of the online sellers that offer free delivery on orders over £70.

I'm after the following, (but not just for the frame) -
6m of 50x25x2.5 box
18m of 25x25x2.5 box
3m of 75x6 flat bar

Online was ~£200

My local engineering firm who are very helpful can do it for me for £96 inc vat. And they would have cut it to length for the same price if I had been able to provide them with drawings......ha, ha.

That strikes me as quite a lot of metal for not much money.

Yes that's how they can offer free delivery if you spend over £70!!!!
Local engineering firms are normally good and also local steel stockholders (in yellow pages).
However don't forget your hacksaw and spare blades. It is not easy cutting it in the side of the road with no vice. LOL.
Really looking forward to seeing your framework coming to fruition. Keep up the good work.

oxford1360 · #**300** 2nd July 2013, 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by froggyman

However don't forget your hacksaw and spare blades. It is not easy cutting it in the side of the road with no vice. LOL.

The chap did kindly point out that it comes in 7.5m lengths. He is going to cut it to "fit in a Volvo length" (a well known engineering unit of measurement).