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Go Back   Madabout Kitcars Forum > Mad Build Area > Marlin Sportster, Cabrio, Berlinetta and Roadster builds

Marlin Sportster, Cabrio, Berlinetta and Roadster builds Enthused or Confused about your vintage Marlin build? Ask away here or show off your build.

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  #1  
Old 16th October 2012, 21:29
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Default BMW Engine ECU - EWS delete

There's a guy on ebay offering an EWS delete service.....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-MS41-E...item2323265532

I have no experience or knowledge of this guy but it may be a useful option for those tackling the more complex BMW immobiliser function in some later M52/M54 engines. Read the small print becuase it only applies to certain types of DME's.

...peter
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Available from eBay
  #2  
Old 17th October 2012, 14:22
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Default M52 ECUs

Hi Peter

Is your M52 engine single Vanos, or the Dual Vanos? And what ECU do you have to go with it?
The guy on ebay clearly states he can only perform the immobilizer delete on a certain range of ECUs.
Tim Brierly stated somewhere that his ECU is the M42. His photos do not show it clearly, but I suspect he may have the Dual Vanos, which may be why he has the later ECU?
I am quite interested in this, because my ideal engine of choice would be the M52B28TU with Dual Vanos, but I was put off by the EWS issues, and took the safe option of the M50 single Vanos. I hoped this ebay guy was going to open the door to this possibility, but I am not sure at all now?

Mike

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterux View Post
There's a guy on ebay offering an EWS delete service.....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-MS41-E...item2323265532

I have no experience or knowledge of this guy but it may be a useful option for those tackling the more complex BMW immobiliser function in some later M52/M54 engines. Read the small print becuase it only applies to certain types of DME's.

...peter
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  #3  
Old 17th October 2012, 19:50
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Hi Mike,

you raise a really good point. When I posted this last night I couldn't remember which version I had, despite the many hours I spent researching it a few years back!

I'd have to check but I'm pretty sure it is the same as Tim's which is an MS42 so would not be possible.
MS41 DME's must be the e36 version and probably single Vanos. Out of curiosity, I may drop him a note and ask him if he is able to do an MS42.

Thanks for raising this important point and sorry if I raised anyone's hopes.

I still think it must be possible to use a dual Vanos M52 engine providing you extract enough of the donor electronics!! (or use a after market ECU).

...peter
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Old 17th October 2012, 22:44
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Peter

The answer is no, he is not able to delete the immobiliser on MS42. He suggests it might be possible to use an MS41 with the complete MS41 loom and run a Dual Vanos. I'd like to think this may be possible, but currently I'm not convinced.

Does anyone know if MS41s were used on Dual Vanos engines? Or if a Dual vanos can be run on an MS41?

Someone, somewhere must have resolved this!

Mike

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Originally Posted by peterux View Post
Hi Mike,

you raise a really good point. When I posted this last night I couldn't remember which version I had, despite the many hours I spent researching it a few years back!

I'd have to check but I'm pretty sure it is the same as Tim's which is an MS42 so would not be possible.
MS41 DME's must be the e36 version and probably single Vanos. Out of curiosity, I may drop him a note and ask him if he is able to do an MS42.

Thanks for raising this important point and sorry if I raised anyone's hopes.

I still think it must be possible to use a dual Vanos M52 engine providing you extract enough of the donor electronics!! (or use a after market ECU).

...peter
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  #5  
Old 18th October 2012, 07:22
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Yes, mine is an MS42. It looks like we are still no nearer being able to bypass the EWS set-up despite all our combined hours of research, but thanks for your efforts guys.
My 'expert' is still rewiring my Sportster, please don't hold your breath for any updates!
Tim
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  #6  
Old 18th October 2012, 08:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timbo View Post
Yes, mine is an MS42. It looks like we are still no nearer being able to bypass the EWS set-up despite all our combined hours of research, but thanks for your efforts guys.
My 'expert' is still rewiring my Sportster, please don't hold your breath for any updates!
Tim
Tim

The bad news - no one has been able to delete the EWS from an MS42 ECU. A trawl across everything BMW reveals all the experts who are able to delete EWS on the MS41 say that the MS42 can not have EWS deleted.

The good news - a small number have been able to get M52/M54 engines, with Dual Vanos, running using the MS41 ECU with EWS deleted and complete engine wiring loom , and then add an after market Vanos controller.

So there is a known way to make it work.
How good the Vanos controller is - who knows?
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  #7  
Old 26th October 2012, 08:28
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Peter/ All,

Thanks for this very interesting lead. I have dropped him an e-mail with the full details of my ECU and EWS to ask the direct question about deleting the EWS.

As you know, I have an E39 M52 TU engine for my Sportster - supplied by Marlin after I told them I was not too bothered about high power or M Powered engines and gave them a free choice to find me a 'good engine'! I was speaking to Terry this week and she told me they had someone they use and that I should send them my ECU/EWS and they would get it deleted/re-mapped (makes you wonder why they sent it to me in the first place?). When I get a response from the e-bay guy I will pass the info to Marlin and seek positive confirmation about what their guy can do.

I will keep you posted on developments here but my other lines of enquiry suggest that the best (and possibly only way forward) is to retain the original loom to get the connectors, source a new ECU and get it mapped from scratch. I won't be too happy about this as it will add a fair cost to my project that could have been avoided if Marlin had done the right research.

Cheers for now

Cameron
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  #8  
Old 26th October 2012, 10:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cammy View Post
Peter/ All,

Thanks for this very interesting lead. I have dropped him an e-mail with the full details of my ECU and EWS to ask the direct question about deleting the EWS.

As you know, I have an E39 M52 TU engine for my Sportster - supplied by Marlin after I told them I was not too bothered about high power or M Powered engines and gave them a free choice to find me a 'good engine'! I was speaking to Terry this week and she told me they had someone they use and that I should send them my ECU/EWS and they would get it deleted/re-mapped (makes you wonder why they sent it to me in the first place?). When I get a response from the e-bay guy I will pass the info to Marlin and seek positive confirmation about what their guy can do.

I will keep you posted on developments here but my other lines of enquiry suggest that the best (and possibly only way forward) is to retain the original loom to get the connectors, source a new ECU and get it mapped from scratch. I won't be too happy about this as it will add a fair cost to my project that could have been avoided if Marlin had done the right research.

Cheers for now

Cameron
Hi Cameron,

the guy on ebay has already confirmed to Mike that he can only do the 'older' e36 variant of ECU call a MS41. (If you look at your ECU (or DME as BMW like to call it) you'll see it has a label marked MS41 or MS42, etc.
Do you know the age of the donor? (I presume you have the donor cars V5?)

In my opinion, as Marlin supplied you the engine with your kit, then I would send the ECU back to Terry and ask her to sort out the immobiliser. You then keep the responsibility with a single supplier (ie Marlin).

...peter
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  #9  
Old 26th October 2012, 11:36
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Peter,

That is exactly my plan. I just wanted to get a specific response from the e-bay guy that I could include in my request to Marlin to sort out the ECU/EWS.

It will be an interesting discussion if they turn round and admit that they can't address this problem. I really don't want to go chasing a new engine but it might be cheaper than a new Engine management system and re-mapping -I have been quoted 1,000 to 1,500 for this. An alternative might be to swap my E39 for an E36 through one of the engine re-furb places but that will also be a lot of hassle as I assume I will also need the associated ECU, steering barrel with key etc.?

The engine I have was manufactured in December 1998.

Cameron
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  #10  
Old 26th October 2012, 14:21
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Hi Cameron,
OK, keep us all posted on what Marlin do.
thanks
Peter
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  #11  
Old 27th October 2012, 16:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cammy View Post
Peter,

That is exactly my plan. I just wanted to get a specific response from the e-bay guy that I could include in my request to Marlin to sort out the ECU/EWS.

It will be an interesting discussion if they turn round and admit that they can't address this problem. I really don't want to go chasing a new engine but it might be cheaper than a new Engine management system and re-mapping -I have been quoted 1,000 to 1,500 for this. An alternative might be to swap my E39 for an E36 through one of the engine re-furb places but that will also be a lot of hassle as I assume I will also need the associated ECU, steering barrel with key etc.?

The engine I have was manufactured in December 1998.

Cameron
Hi Cameron

Experience suggests you will need to set Marlin a deadline, otherwise issues like this seem to get filed in their 'Too hard to do' tray, and responses can be a very long while coming! - treat them as you would a contractor at work!
Also, I think we all know the answer you'll eventually receive.......?

There is another option: As you have the M52TUB28engine, you could source a complete M50TU engine wiring loom, with its DME, and run your engine as though it is single Vanos - (you may need one or two additional sensors?).
If you read the blog by Steve at Seattle Circuits, he ran his M54B30 (essentially a stroked M52TUB28, with drive by wire accelerator) without the exhaust vanos working and it made no difference to the maximium BHP wherever he fixed the exhaust vanos timing!

I'm struggling to find his blog again, but will add it here when I do!

Edit: here it is. This guy really does understand BMW Vanos requirements! His blog makes fascinating reading.


http://m54megasquirt3.blogspot.co.uk...ting-blog.html

Then go to the bottom and click on "Starting the blog"
Mike
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  #12  
Old 29th October 2012, 09:18
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Interesting update Mike and thanks for the advice on Marlin. Will be following up this week and will keep you posted.

Appreciate the link to the blog - a lot more reading ahead I can see!

Cheers

Cameron
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  #13  
Old 29th October 2012, 20:24
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Default Megasquirt 3 for M52TUB28?

For anyone interested in using an M52TUB28 and meeting a dead end with EWS delete, I contacted an incredibly knowledgable guy in USA who has installed an M54B30 (basically a stroked M52TUB28 with drive by wire) in an E30.

I asked Steve:

There are a number of guys in UK who would like to use the European M52TUB28 engine (aluminium block with steel bores) in cars we are building. I currently have the M50TUB25 in mine, as it was the last safe engine (in Europe) before EWS became impossible to delete. (We had problems in UK with early M52s with aluminium blocks with Nikasil bores wearing due to high sulphur): The M52TU upgrade replaced the nikasil bores with steel bores and added dual vanos. ( making it very similar to your US M54B30 specification without stroked crank and drive by wire)
I would like to run an M52TUB28, as it offers 210ft lbs maximum torque at 3500revs, compared to my M50TUB25's 184ft lbs at 4200rpm.
I am looking for a low revving tourer, with plenty of low down torque, and am not too concerned about the ultimate maximum bhp at high revs.
Also, because of the EWS delete issue, it is possible to find low milage M52 TUB28 engine/gearboxes at cheap prices in UK.

In Europe we have the MS41 ECU/DME fitted to early M52s which it is possible to delete the EWS from. (Is this the same as your 413 ECU?).

Assuming this as our starting point, it appears that your Vanos controller can take care of the exhaust vanos and allow us to finally use the M52TUB28 to deliver standard levels of performance as originally intended.

Having read your blog - (I am in highly impressed with your electrical knowledge!) - I see you have moved on to Megasquirt 3. This is way beyond my electrical knowledge. I, and many like me, would like a plug and go Vanos controller, or at least one with a set of very explicit instructions, which will allow the engine to run as if in the stock set up, without requiring hours of expensive dyno time.

Based on what you have achieved, are our expectations achievable with your vanos controller?

Steve's Reply

Assuming the MS41 is similar to the US 413, the VANOS controller would work. I will assume that the MS41 controls the earlier VANOS which was only on the intake and "on-off" with no variable position.

I haven't assembled a VANOS board in at least a year although I still have the technical capacity to do so. The biggest issue for me is that since I convertd my car to Megasquirt I lost the capability to test the completed board directly on the car. 99% of the time if I can load the firmware into the processor then everything will function correctly, but the performance of the MOSFETS and such is best checked in an operation environment.

The other issue is that the MS41 will be tuned for a different engine. When you are running the M52TUB28 engine on an ECU meant for a 2.5litre engine, it won't be tuned for the larger injectors and won't play well with the increased volumetric efficiency of the improved VANOS. I had to rely on The Racers Market, a shop based in Atlanta, GA, to update the tune on my 413 when I started. It was frustrating to do and I never got to see how the tune was changed and certainly don't own that tune. You would be on your own to tune the MS41 to the new motor.

With the Megasquirt, I can freely distribute the tune.

So, I know the Megasquirt seems like a daunting prospect but I promise you it would be worth it. I've done all of the legwork on it and it wouldn't be very difficult to plug one into your harness. You will learn a great deal from it and it's the LEAST RISKY path to follow... I can't guarantee how something designed for the M54 is going to work on the M52.

Think about it and I can help you either way.

r, Stephen

Has anyone any experience using a Megasquirt?
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  #14  
Old 30th October 2012, 14:01
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Have just returned from a visit to my beloved but stricken Sportster in Caerphilly. After trying (and failing) many attempts to re-synch/re-programme the ECU, EWS and key, we had decided to completely re-wire it using a replacement M52 engine wiring loom to see if this would solve the problem.

Having discovered that progress over the last year has been rather slow (the replacement loom was still unopened in its box), I have decided to try the MS41 route suggested above (thanks, Mike).

I intend to source an E36 1994-95 engine loom, with a Siemens MS41 ECU, delete the EWS, re-wire, and get the engine started again!
Steve's point above about the 2.8 hopefully won't apply as mine is 'just' a 2.5. And I will worry about the exhaust Vanos later.

Will post progress as and when (!)
Tim

PS If anyone wants an M52 engine loom...
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Old 30th October 2012, 18:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timbo View Post
Have just returned from a visit to my beloved but stricken Sportster in Caerphilly. After trying (and failing) many attempts to re-synch/re-programme the ECU, EWS and key, we had decided to completely re-wire it using a replacement M52 engine wiring loom to see if this would solve the problem.

Having discovered that progress over the last year has been rather slow (the replacement loom was still unopened in its box), I have decided to try the MS41 route suggested above (thanks, Mike).

I intend to source an E36 1994-95 engine loom, with a Siemens MS41 ECU, delete the EWS, re-wire, and get the engine started again!
Steve's point above about the 2.8 hopefully won't apply as mine is 'just' a 2.5. And I will worry about the exhaust Vanos later.

Will post progress as and when (!)
Tim

PS If anyone wants an M52 engine loom...

Hi Tim

Seattle Steve ran his M54B30 on your proposed set up for 18 months without any problems - in fact when he got his Vanos controller working it made Zero difference to BHP! - wherever he set the variable exhaust Vanos! It only started to have an impact when he added the exhaust manifold off an S52.
Exhaust Vanos's primary purpose appears to be emissions control.

Hope you get yourself back on the road to have all the fun you always intended!

Mike
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Old 30th October 2012, 20:04
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Just Googled Vanos to find out what it means (I am still learning about the ancient Lucas 14CUX injection on my V8 Cabrio!) when I found the following link. Not sure if it helps but "yer tiz" as they say down this way Peter.

http://www.bimmerforums.co.uk/forum/...explained-t62/
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Old 30th October 2012, 22:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timbo View Post
Have just returned from a visit to my beloved but stricken Sportster in Caerphilly. After trying (and failing) many attempts to re-synch/re-programme the ECU, EWS and key, we had decided to completely re-wire it using a replacement M52 engine wiring loom to see if this would solve the problem.

Having discovered that progress over the last year has been rather slow (the replacement loom was still unopened in its box), I have decided to try the MS41 route suggested above (thanks, Mike).

I intend to source an E36 1994-95 engine loom, with a Siemens MS41 ECU, delete the EWS, re-wire, and get the engine started again!
Steve's point above about the 2.8 hopefully won't apply as mine is 'just' a 2.5. And I will worry about the exhaust Vanos later.

Will post progress as and when (!)
Tim

PS If anyone wants an M52 engine loom...

Tim

Not sure I follow your plans? - or are you not differentiating between M52 and M52TU in your comments?
You say you have an M52 loom that is unopened in its box? - do you mean an M52TUB25 loom? (to suit your Dual Vanos). Also known as OBD2.

Then you say you want to source a loom from an E36 94-95: this will be an M52 loom for single Vanos with the MS41 with EWS delete capabilities.Known as OBD1.

Presumably the spare loom you are offering tongue-in-cheek is the M52TUB25 OBD2?

Or have I got it all wrong?
Mike
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Old 31st October 2012, 07:40
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Hi Mike
Maybe I've got it all wrong. I thought I needed to switch from the M52TUB25 OBD2 to the E36 OBD1 so that the MS41 was consistent??
I haven't checked exactly what's in the box yet but I thought it was just a straight replacement for my current M52TUB25 wiring loom.
Tim
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Old 31st October 2012, 09:26
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Well I opened the box:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3310545...7631893966899/

kinda wish I hadn't
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Old 11th December 2012, 20:31
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Hi Everyone,
Been a bit quiet lately but that’s been down to doing a lot of digging and chasing to try and finalise my decision about the ECU mapping issue. I sent e-mails to several ECU suppliers and had a numerous discussions with Engine tuning folk to seek their advice. I also posed a few question to Marlin whose response was/is to definitely not go down the road of an aftermarket ECU. Bearing in mind they gave me an engine and ECU/Immobiliser from an automatic and a gearbox and flywheel from a manual that therefore necessitates a remapping, I found this a bit strange. Anyway, I have decided to go with the Emerald K6 ECU at 595 plus VAT. I have a well respected Autotune mechanic near me who Emerald are comfortable with and when I spoke to him he was very helpful confirming that we would be able to get the car running, that Emerald is one of the best value ECU’s on the market and very reliable, advising me of what stage of completion I should bring the car to him and not to spend anything on the air intake/filters for now until he has a chance to look at it. He even offered me a loan of a trailer to take the car to him and was very honest about the potential time it will take to get info from Emerald if there are challenges meeting exhaust emissions! I know this is going to be a more expensive option than persevering with the BMW stuff but the end product should be much simpler and I still have not found anyone that can state categorically state that my particular combination of BMW ECU and immobiliser (DMS 42 and EWS 4.3) can be remapped!
Here is a summary of the responses I received to my inquiries about suppliers of suitable ECU’s.
Emerald
Initial response was to say no, they do not currently do the twin VANOS system. We have done a test engine but there are so many variations that we would not be happy selling you an ECU for this engine.
When I told them my plan was to use a competent Auto mechanic that they are familiar with (Jim King in Inverurie near me) they said ok, they could/would supply an ECU with the double VANOS and the same base settings as the one we did here installed in a 2002. It’s tricky to wire up the double VANOS though, the one we did here gave us a headache for a while.
Canems
Our injection ECU is capable of running your engine in a semi sequential fashion (we'd use the crank sensor for speed /TDC location but do not need information from the camshaft sensor).
I'd recommend to replace the air flow meter with a MAP sensor which we can supply at 40. This is a more flexible method of sensing engine load (easier to fit into a kit car and improves engine breathing). Other than this, you can use all other existing sensors on your engine. Our systems are calibrated for use with Bosch sensors which is naturally an advantage for BMW systems.
Our injection ECU has a 3D PWM map that can be linked to the VANOS system. This acts as a smooth advance/retard, although there is no facility for closed-loop cam control (for accurate closed loop cam control, aftermarket ECU prices quickly rise well into four figures).
Naturally if your vehicle is required to pass IVA emissions you'll require a narrow band lambda sensor and catalytic converter.
Our ECU has been used frequently for IVA emissions tests so we can help with suitable base maps to get you started.
Omex Technology
Sorry but we have not controlled the twin VANOS before so we would be unable to provide an ECU for your application unless the cams were changed. We would also be unable to provide an ECU for single VANOS.
DTA Ltd
An S100 should get you up and running. The M52 engines have a different VANOS system to the S engines with I am pretty sure is only one oil valve per cam shaft.
The minimum extras you will need is an S100, two S connectors, serial cable and USB converter, UKP()1066 + post + VAT.

SimTek UK
No response!

Cheers for now.

Cameron
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