Ferrari Dino 246 replica, JH Classics/Deon

[Crocus]

Hi David

Like Ian I'd also heard that the DGT had been based on moulds taken from a 206GT but had always considered this to be speculation until now.

I'd assumed this due to numerous irregularities. These irregulatities may of been present in the original 206GT or it may be that “Automotive Design & Development” altered the moulds that they'd taken, resulting in these irregularities when they created their kitcar.

For example, if you compare the front wheel arches, the right hand side (UK drivers side) wheel arch is narrower relative to the width of the car and shorter relative to the length of the car and is set at a different angle. The tear-drop recess for the headlamp is also differently shaped on one side and the front indicator is closer to one recess than the other. Does your car have any of these problem or the many others highlighted earler.

If you can cast any light on the situation you may be able to add the final piece to this jigsaw?

[Ferrotus]

My car appears to be reasonably symmetrical but I have never measured to be certain.
I was actually at Automotive when they did the lay-up of my car and, with the 206GT next to it, it appeared identical. Nothing has ever stood out as being "wrong".
Here you must remember of course that all of the 206GT's were hand formed in Aluminium and therefore there would always be some discrepancies. (I have heard of there being doors on the same car being a couple of inches difference in length!). Reference the doors, I originally made the doors to fit the apertures and at no time checked to see if one side differed from the other. As it was, my attempt at the doors (which were pretty well identical to the original as the car was sitting next to me) looked fine but the hinge mechanism was poor. So after a few years or so I had the DGT items fitted. There appears to be some extra work on the doors so it could well be that they had to "adjust" their doors to fit my apertures. Also remember that all of the 206's were LH drive.
I can't imagine that Automotive would have spent any time on making things symmetrical if they weren't - they were not that type of company!
One thing that was left when the moulds were taken was a slight dent in the rear below the number plate - it was on the 206 and is still on mine!

[Dino-maniac]

I might be able to help you guy's out here. I've been in touch with John of JH Classics about a week ago. This is from one of his messages.

"The car was moulded from an original 206GT, three bodies were made from the mould, which was then destroyed, one was converted into a Lotus Europa powered Dino, the second was my prototype and the third was made into the master plug for our moulds, through the process of research and development and for copyright reasons we made some changes to the car, the original was rebuilt, the Lotus one is still with its original owner, the first prototype was written off in an accident and the third master was burnt once we had finished producing all the moulds. I am very glad you like the car, I retain two of them, one Le Mans, the only one in existence and one V6 Mirabeau. It is nice to think they may go back into production."

Hope that helps.

[Crocus]

Now that makes sense of things. A company wouldn't normally make production quality moulds if they were just going to make a couple of shells. You'd make a temporary mould. After a couple of shell's or 3 in this case this thin mould wouldn't be in good shape, so it would be scrapped; as it was.

From the information people have provided it sounds like, "Automotive Design & Development" or John Hurst or possibly one commissioned by the other used one of the shells to make a master to create new moulds but they cut and carved it to make it easier to produce and less like the real thing, for fear of legal problems and the familiar symmetry problems probably beset as a result.

As Ferrotus said
"I can't imagine that Automotive would have spent any time on making things symmetrical if they weren't - they were not that type of company!"

Whatever roll John Hurst played in the formation of the production moulds he certainly helped the cars shake off some of the early quality problems and we probably wouldn't know much about them if he hadn't got involved.

At the end of the day they're still loved by their owners and they make a lot of people happy. I've owned and loved a JH Classic DGT, its responsible for what I now do for a living. If anyone thinks any of that sounds wide of the mark please say so.

[parrish]

[thecarbuilder246]

Originally Posted by parrish

hi
re your mirabeau-I believe this car was built by david javan way back around 1996/8 ish.Seems to have change colour as it was originally a dark maroon but there is no mistaking the cossie lump with the alley breather in the boot! this is the car that lead me to fit the same engine in mine.still looks good!
ian

[thecarbuilder246]

Originally Posted by Crocus

Hi David

Like Ian I'd also heard that the DGT had been based on moulds taken from a 206GT but had always considered this to be speculation until now.

I'd assumed this due to numerous irregularities. These irregulatities may of been present in the original 206GT or it may be that “Automotive Design & Development” altered the moulds that they'd taken, resulting in these irregularities when they created their kitcar.

For example, if you compare the front wheel arches, the right hand side (UK drivers side) wheel arch is narrower relative to the width of the car and shorter relative to the length of the car and is set at a different angle. The tear-drop recess for the headlamp is also differently shaped on one side and the front indicator is closer to one recess than the other. Does your car have any of these problem or the many others highlighted earler.

If you can cast any light on the situation you may be able to add the final piece to this jigsaw?

hi
there was always poeple around saying doors were different sizes/wheel arches were wrong/vents in bonnet were one short etc etc but if you look at the real dino there are variations on them too.these were basically hand put together and alot of panels didn't switch from car to car either.
Poeple have spoke about the wheel bases being 4 mm to short too.Who really worries over 4mm?
I once spoke to a guy who was frowned upon at the ferrari owners club as his car was a 206gt alley body on a later 246 chasis. It looked great too and I have several photos of it.
ian

[parrish]

Hi
Its not mine,
its for sale and as it has no roof (apparently damaged) i was wondering if roof sections were still available?
Does anyone know if i could buy a roof if i bought the car?
Steve

[thecarbuilder246]

hi
when I met david he was in the process of having a one-off fibreglass hard top made for it as the ragtop it came with was next to useless. I think only a couple were made,as the first one was melted in the paint shop oven!
I doubt if any still exsist (maybe someone out there knows more) as only a handful of mirabeau cars made it on to the road and most of them had the ragtop. Is the roof repairable? That maybe your best option.I guess it depends on how much the guy is asking as to wether you could get one made as regards costs.
ian

[parrish]

Im new to Kit cars, but i do like the look and engineering of the car.
If i were to get a hard top made (Basic) is it too difficult?
What would i pay maximum?
Steve

[tricky360]

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1708773.htm
does any one know this car?
after missing out on the dino on ebay , iam going to have a look at this, whats the thing to look out for on the dino replicas?

[Crocus]

Hi Tricky360.

I think there are several things to look for when buying a replica like the one you've spotted.

If its a Deon the footwell will be narrow and you may struggle if you take a size 9 shoe or above. Check the gearlever works well going into all gears as this is often a problem if it has a Lancia box and be prepared, the gears may not be conventional patern. Check the GRP for cracks around the front of the car because the low nose often gets curbed. Also if its been modified are the mods helping or are they going to cost you money sorting them out later.

Finally condition, all kitcars are projects and everyone has things done to improve them, so perfection isn't neccessarily what you expect when you buy one and certainly not when you buy a used one but the better it is the less money you'll spend later.

[tricky360]

thanks for the reply crocus ,the one in the ad says hes made the footwell bigger, so thats a start!
if i get it i might swap the engine and box for an alfa or audi a4.

i was looking in an old kit guide from 1996 and the deon ads are in it, if i get a chance later i will upload it.
the red convertible is in with it hood up.

[mac]

Hi Tricky,

Crocus is absolutely right in what he says to look out for. I would just add look very carefully at the fit of the doors, they were a pig to hang. The guy who built mine spent literaly weeks getting them just right.

Regards
Mac.

[thecarbuilder246]

Hi
regards having a new roof made I still have david javan's telephone number.It's a long shot as it's almost 10 years since I last spoke to him,but he may be able to help.
you'll have to let me have your e-mail as I wouldn't want to post his number on here.
ian

[thecarbuilder246]

Originally Posted by mac

Hi Tricky,

Crocus is absolutely right in what he says to look out for. I would just add look very carefully at the fit of the doors, they were a pig to hang. The guy who built mine spent literaly weeks getting them just right.

Regards
Mac.

I've seen, over the years, many jhclassic's and deon gt/gts and the poor door fit is what they all have in common.Some are not too bad but other are real poor indeed.I've seen some where you can get your fingers in to the shut lines the gaps are so bad.The passenger door seem the worst.
My doors was just as bad as every one I've looked at,but I've cut them and re-fibreglass them and made them a whole lot better.Another thing is the door frames that take the glass.The deon ones were rubbish and were cut up and binned within weeks of them being delivered.I had some made by classic replicas and they weren't much better.The alley welding was done on a mig and would never look good so these too were scrapped.I've machined up my own from steel bar to try match the real dino and I'm happy with the way they turned out.
ian

[JARED_NOMAK]

Originally Posted by thecarbuilder246

hi
re your mirabeau-I believe this car was built by david javan way back around 1996/8 ish.Seems to have change colour as it was originally a dark maroon but there is no mistaking the cossie lump with the alley breather in the boot! this is the car that lead me to fit the same engine in mine.still looks good!
ian

Hi Ian
P613FDV is still the same colour as it was when built by Dave Javan, You want the history of the car.
Built by Dave Javan with a Granada Cosworth V6, the car is number 6 of the mirabeau's sold.
The engine was second hand with 2600 miles on it, the car originally had for clock, which were later changed to smiths instruments and a nasty black surround, by the 2nd owner, who bought the car off Dave Javan at Stoneleigh Kit Car show.
The car then went to the Isle of Wight for the next number of years and was later sold by creditors at an Auction on the Isle of Wight in 2002. The car was bought by me and I built the hood frame for it as there were so many parts missing from it. I had the car for a couple of years and eventually sold it to a guy named Fraser from falkirk, who I think could still be the current owner.
Hope this helps to some degree, this is just the basics of its history.
Ross

[JARED_NOMAK]

Originally Posted by thecarbuilder246

hi
when I met david he was in the process of having a one-off fibreglass hard top made for it as the ragtop it came with was next to useless. I think only a couple were made,as the first one was melted in the paint shop oven!
I doubt if any still exsist (maybe someone out there knows more) as only a handful of mirabeau cars made it on to the road and most of them had the ragtop. Is the roof repairable? That maybe your best option.I guess it depends on how much the guy is asking as to wether you could get one made as regards costs.
ian

In regard to the hardtop, I still have it although it would need alot of work to get it to fit and be water tight.

There were three hardtops made as before the one melted in the oven, my one and there was one other out there too

Ross

[JARED_NOMAK]

Can I also ask anyone with a Mirabeau to let me know what number there car is.
So far I am only aware of
Ian Fyfe's Dark Blue, Dino Rear lights and Bonnet vents.
Neil Entwistle (Spelling) Dark Blue, Cream Leather.
Silver car N266 - Silver Factory Built, Owned by Simon, London Area
Frasers Car - P613FDV
Spain Car - Red car with a 3.1 Engine, Modified Rear boot and different interiour.
My other car part built - Chassis 14.
Mirabeau 1 - Burnt Out and chopped up, original Brochure car.
Mirabeau 33 - Owner John Hurst, Not on the road.
Also would other be interested in an Mirabeaus registery/owner club.

Also would people be interested in New Mirabeau Kits, with the option of Hardtops and brought upto date a little.

2.0 Ford Cosworth Powered or VW VR6/R32 Powered.

Any feedback on any of these thoughts would be appricated.

Ross

[parrish]

It is for sale,
ive been negotiating, hence the questions about a roof.
Car is currently withought hard or soft top, although i believe the current owner has a sort of frame made up.
Car needs some paint, as can be seen in the photos.
I think ill be passing this one up so if anyone wants the guys e maill address and is serious PM me and ill pass your information on.
Just make sure youve got circa 9K to buy it.
Regards
Steve