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Go Back   Madabout Kitcars Forum > Mad Build Area > DNA Builds

DNA Builds DNA 250 California builds here

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  #21  
Old 27th July 2017, 10:32
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  #22  
Old 27th July 2017, 17:43
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Interesting....thanks for the summary.

Given DNA's model history I would have thought it would take something very serious to stop them producing the 250 if they indeed have.

I felt it was far enough away from being a copy that it wouldn't attract the attention of Ferrari but I guess if the 'buzz' around the 250 also had Ferrari bandied around with it and badges on display then it was going to attract attention of the wrong sort.
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  #23  
Old 27th July 2017, 18:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JG View Post
Interesting....thanks for the summary.

Given DNA's model history I would have thought it would take something very serious to stop them producing the 250 if they indeed have.

I felt it was far enough away from being a copy that it wouldn't attract the attention of Ferrari but I guess if the 'buzz' around the 250 also had Ferrari bandied around with it and badges on display then it was going to attract attention of the wrong sort.
AGREED ....As I have said before , no stranger to the Fakari world , very well promoted and definitely not low profile at shows etc. Emulating current models is always risky as well ....

I think the 'buzz' as you put it , could be exactly whats caused the issue .....
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  #24  
Old 27th July 2017, 22:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot link View Post
I don't think they work like that ...they are more of a 'sniper' when it comes to this ...they fire a shot , take out one player , sit back and watch everyone else duck for cover or surrender ....
Hmm. objects on pillows maybe???
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  #25  
Old 28th July 2017, 06:15
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Hmm. objects on pillows maybe???
Neigh.
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  #26  
Old 28th July 2017, 10:42
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Some of the recent 250s are extremely attractive in relation to individual, well known chassis numbers. The kit manufacturers, and even the build agents cannot stop what the customer puts on the car. However, the oem will not care, it is their brand and ip that is being used for leverage (for that is what it actually is). What constitutes proprietor style, as ponited out already, debatable. The DNA approach, understandable as it is, was leaching big bucks. Hardly a cottage industry when you look at the added value coming from what the oem perceives as their ip.
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  #27  
Old 28th July 2017, 11:39
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Neigh.
HORSES FOR COURSES , I GUESS .....

My mane concern is for the guys stuck in a mare of a situation and being saddled with half built cars due to the supplier falling foal of the law ....but hay , what do I know ......

don't worry coats on and taxi's been ordered .....
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  #28  
Old 28th July 2017, 12:36
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Stop horsing around. ;-)
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  #29  
Old 28th July 2017, 16:48
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Originally Posted by lancelot link View Post
I really , genuinely think that the buck will stop at DNA's door , if the above is correct ...The cars were scarily accurate in many ways , big badge useage etc. I do wonder what's different this time , as I cannot believe that DNA have not received communications before ...they are no stranger to obvious replication.

I think other manufacturers / build agents/ home builders etc. should take heed of the warning shot thats been fired and tone down the 'similarities' a little , maybe ?
I am no expert on this by any means and don't know where the line is drawn , the silhouette argument has been explained to me in the past , but thats tricky because an Aston silhouette or a Maserati silhouette etc often is spookily similar to the Ferrari etc.

I think the minute you badge up , its an issue ...I know Aston covet their grille shape as well ...but putting Ferrari badges on must be a step too far...

Imitation is usually the greatest form of flattery , but I think the concern may be that a whole heap of replica's will affect genuine prices and credibility ... Slightly different situation , but the saturated market place for fake Cobra's must have affected genuine Cobra ownership ...how many of us would assume replica before genuine , if a Cobra went past you on the road ...we all do it ...Even watches , clothing etc...we all assume its a Bolex before Rolex .....so maybe thats an issue , maybe its brand useage ...I don't know ...I'd love to hear both sides of this argument , as a builder who strays into ''inspiration'' territory and tries to avoid replication , I really would love to know where the line is drawn and why its there ....
I agree, especially as they regularly used the same designers for the prettiest cars. I don't envy you treading the fine line.
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  #30  
Old 28th July 2017, 17:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barber View Post
The kit manufacturers, and even the build agents cannot stop what the customer puts on the car.
But that's the point - in this case it was DNA badging their own demonstrators, as in Nubodis case for the ex demo and new number 7 car - they're knowingly using the IP to make sales - it's not the end user that's brought this on, it's the manufacturer and build agent.
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  #31  
Old 28th July 2017, 17:35
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For demonstrators there can be no excuse. For customer cars, at the end of the day they are built to order .... ish.
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  #32  
Old 28th July 2017, 18:26
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Quote:
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I don't envy you treading the fine line.
I THINK MY LINE IS A LOT THICKER THAN SOME ...I don't think anyone could argue my product is a copy of any one particular manufacturers work ...

Interesting times ahead though ...I'd still like to hear the official word on what's happened ...
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  #33  
Old 28th July 2017, 18:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot link View Post
I THINK MY LINE IS A LOT THICKER THAN SOME ...I don't think anyone could argue my product is a copy of any one particular manufacturers work ...

Interesting times ahead though ...I'd still like to hear the official word on what's happened ...
I agree that you have a much stronger case than some others.

It doesn't help when the oems get heavy though. They just want to put a stop to it, and fear is a good starting place for them, being a lot cheaper than legal cases.
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  #34  
Old 28th July 2017, 18:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barber View Post
For demonstrators there can be no excuse. For customer cars, at the end of the day they are built to order .... ish.
Agreed ...If a customer chooses to 'badge up' thats not the Manufacturers or agents fault ...they aren't in control of what happens post sale or delivery and its a bit like an illegally spaced number plate or wrong coloured plates on a late model car in some ways ....some choose to chance it , others won't ...if you do , you take your chances and thats that ...

To the best of my knowledge its a practice carried out by customers and Agents on the Tribute line ....I don't think Chris has ever fitted badges to one of his kits , as he is quite aware of the implications of upsetting a major manufacturer ...

From a promotional point of view , I can totally see why agents and other manufacturers do it ..but they all know the risk , same as I did when I ran illegally spaced number plates for years on various cars ....

Last edited by lancelot link; 28th July 2017 at 18:35..
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  #35  
Old 28th July 2017, 18:38
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In all kinds of business, some folk ignore the warnings and others do not, especially those who have been bitten I guess.
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  #36  
Old 28th July 2017, 18:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barber View Post
I agree that you have a much stronger case than some others.

It doesn't help when the oems get heavy though. They just want to put a stop to it, and fear is a good starting place for them, being a lot cheaper than legal cases.
Agreed ..its working isn't it ? we are all talking about it , running a bit scared etc...I have no worries at all about the Formosa , as with the S*mmio ...it replicates nothing ...but I also make my living and associate with people and customers / projects etc that are nearer the knuckle and would rather we all carried on just as we are ....
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  #37  
Old 28th July 2017, 23:58
Lucky@LeMans Lucky@LeMans is offline
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I couldn't find the original link through for this thread either.
However, the industry has been here before namely with Cobra kits and
Lotus 7's.
From what I can remember with the Cobra case it simply ended with the replica manufacturers not being allowed to use the word Cobra in their marketing.
The Lotus 7 being made by Westfield was a like for like copy so they had to make a few changes to the body work until Lotus were happy. The original Westfield 7's are now known as the pre litigation cars !
The bottom line is that there are still plenty of Cobra kits and Lotus 7 style kits to choose from on the market today.
Ferrari have been here before, I also understand the Datsun 250 kits were stopped and the moulds cut up. At the time nobody took the concept further.
I would think the Tribute and DNA Z3 cars are far enough away from being copies. Their physical dimensions and proportions as well as whats under the skin is very much far removed from the real thing.
I can understand Ferrari being upset with Ferrari badges on the demo cars but I would think that would be the end of it, I hope.
Think also Champagne and other brands of fizzy wine. Some fizzy wine is better imo but they aren't allowed to call it Champagne which is the real deal .
Think Melton Mowbray , think pork pies, but only the real one can call itself a Melton Mowbray !
Make some attractive 60's style fibre glass panel kits, but don't badge it up as a F........

Last edited by Lucky@LeMans; 29th July 2017 at 22:09..
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  #38  
Old 29th July 2017, 07:55
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Again, as echoed above, something tangible regarding what's actually happened between DNA, Maranello and/or Cosa Nostra Legal Services would be useful.

From experience of having to deal with a legal case involving partners in a design company falling out financially, which led to a technical burglary and alleged theft of original designs from one business partner by another, I can say with some authority that the laws covering intellectual property, design ownership and trademarks are very complex.

In the case of a company such as DNA/Tribute/Fiorano building visually similar cars to historic Ferrari models, two factors come into play: 1) copyright of the original design; 2) trademark infringement.

Copyright of the original design is currently owned by the individual who can prove they drew the first sketches (or electronic equivalent) and completed the design, and passes on to their heirs for seventy years after their death. That remains true regardless of who employed the designer and/or commissioned the design. Contrary to popular belief, paying someone to design something for you doesn't automatically make you the owner of their design.

So, legally, the right to stop somebody else copying *the Ferrari 250 Califormia Spyder body shape rests with the individual designer (or his heirs if deceased) employed by Pininfarina to draw the shape when Ferrari commissioned them to create a convertible version of the 250.

As such, it shouldn't really be Ferrari that would bring litigation against companies creating similar shaped cars but whoever penned the shape in the first place.

*To make it even more complicated, minor changes to the dimensions or look of the car - a different nose-cone on a seven, for example, can mean that the design copyright hasn't been breached at all.

If a manufacturer of a historic model from its range designed by someone else brought legal action for breach of copyright a decent lawyer could keep that gravy train rolling for years without a court ever reaching an adjudication.

Trademark infringement, however, is much simpler. Ferrari and the Cavallino Rampante are the registered trademarks of a current business. If you are manufacturing goods, including tee shirts, baseball caps, manbags or cars, and putting Ferrari logos on them without Maranello's permission, you're infringing their trademark, full stop.

As has been rightly pointed out above though, they're more likely to notice and take action if it's a business that's making money off the back of their trademark rather than a man in a shed gluing a prancing horse to his home built pride and joy.

Couldn't be simpler, eh?

Now, anyone actually know what's going on?

http://www.thedesigntrust.co.uk/desi...signer-makers/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark_infringement
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  #39  
Old 29th July 2017, 08:11
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Great post Mr Towed, and very informative.
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  #40  
Old 29th July 2017, 10:09
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Really? You believe they employed a designer and let them keep the rights after paying for the design?

And the whole gravy train thing is exactly the point - if Ferrari were fronting you out with their massive resources are you really going to try and argue and face potentially 100s of thousands of legal fees or fold and take it on the chin?

Whatever route they took DNA clearly didn't have the appetite to attempt a defense. I'm sure F could make some pretty nasty threats...

I was told they'd been shut down - no reason to doubt the source

Basically they took the chance having had a great run up to now but got pulled on this one

Last edited by smash; 29th July 2017 at 10:14..
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