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Go Back   Madabout Kitcars Forum > Mad Build Area > Miglia Builds and discussion

Miglia Builds and discussion Miglia bodied builds

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  #21  
Old 5th May 2015, 10:41
Viatron Viatron is offline
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Marc.
Its a standard loom which is way loner all round than you would need so you just trim back to suite. Basically decide where you want to bolt the fuse box and then run wires from there. One big advantage is that every wire has its use printed on it about every 12" so its very easy to figure out what needs to go where. I fitted mine and had most circuits up and running in a couple of days. Being of American production its all very simple and a bit over engineered but I when you compare that to the nightmare of dealing with an old loom for me it was a no brainer. They do several types just pic the one with enough circuits for what you need.

Mac
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  #22  
Old 5th May 2015, 16:51
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swifty swifty is offline
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Marc I can vouch for the Langys loom as i fitted one to my build, very easy and simple to install plus as Mac point's out all brand new so future proof compared to messing about with the old loom.
One thing though is the flasher relay keep falling out of the fuse board so i'm looking at ways to stop this, one guy has dremmeled the lugs on the relay to push further into the plug on the fuse board.

Last edited by swifty; 5th May 2015 at 16:56..
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  #23  
Old 6th May 2015, 09:02
Marc F Marc F is offline
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Ok, some more sideways pictures - I guess the photo format is pushing the long side sideways, so I will have to remember to take the picture sideways to start with.

Anyway - the engine on stand



And the bits



Toying with getting a later oil pump with angled pick up, but more expense...

And to explain - the engine was rebuilt 30 years ago when I was a kid, but never run. So all the machining is fresh. When we dragged it out of the garage, it turned freely, and when the head came off there was no rust - so I was lucky. All the shells etc had a film of oil on them still, so apart from some slight polishing marks ("witness marks" per my Stag friend) I will just give it a thorough clean and rebuild - this time with cam lube and graphogen paste to assist. I had a moment of panic with the cam as it looked like the bearings' oil holes were not aligned with the oilways, but last night with the aid of an inspection mirror I could see that the oilways from the main bearings were ok - not sure why two holes in bearing, but at least one is aligned so some oil will get to the cam. I had in my worry spoke to the machine shop thinking they could press out and realign, but they said it would wreck the shell so it would have meant new bearings.

And the Paddock bill is high as I am buying gaskets etc, along with new big end bolts, head studs and nuts, new tappet buckets (which I need to check as I thought I had replaced those 30 yars ago - need to look at the bills) etc, and the bill soon mounts up. But I have abandoned the idea of the rocker oil feed kit following a perusal of the web chatter, so that is 30 saved.

As to the loom, I am in two minds.A joy of kits is trying to recycle the donor as far as possible, against which nice and new and shiny is very appealing. I did not get a chance (yet) to browse that site, but that may help me make up my mind. This month is going to be expensive - Paddock's bill looks like 300, and Aldon ignition is heading that way as well. Gulp...

Last edited by Marc F; 6th May 2015 at 09:11.. Reason: Extra text
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  #24  
Old 6th May 2015, 09:59
8 Valve Ed 8 Valve Ed is offline
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Well done! Lots of nice bits there.

I wouldn't bother with an Aldon dizzy at this stage, you don't NEED it, especially with a four pot engine. In fact I have dumped the SD1 V8 electronic in favour of old fashioned points. At least if they give you a problem you can usually fix it by the roadside. If at a later date when funds recover and you really WANT an Aldon dizzy it's a simple two minute job to swap it out.

To check the cam followers put two with their 'flat' faces together, they should be very slightly convex, provided they are and aren't pitted, put them back, preferably in the same positions they came from. They will probably be better than the new ones you get today.

Keep up the good work, concentrate on getting the foundations right, the cosmetics can be adjusted later.

Last edited by 8 Valve Ed; 6th May 2015 at 10:05.. Reason: added content.
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  #25  
Old 11th May 2015, 15:48
Marc F Marc F is offline
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Well, a big box of bits came from Paddock's, so just waiting on some final pieces. But it mean a slow weekend - I guess it happens. Current target is to get between 2 and 3 Sundays a month on the car to keep domestic harmony and real life balanced.

But it has let me ponder a question. Once I rebuild my engine, stuffed full of graphogen and cam lube and new running-in oil, should I start it and bench run it in, or should I leave it until the car is ready to roll. I want to start it up, but have heard horror stories of not bedding the rings in properly and so getting terrible oil consumption - which I don't want.

So, any thoughts out there of the pros and cons to now versus delayed?
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  #26  
Old 11th May 2015, 17:41
8 Valve Ed 8 Valve Ed is offline
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I would definitely spin it over to check compressions, oil pressure and circulation but maybe not fire it up...

If it's going to stand for a while again I would put some oil down the bores because it's almost impossible to prevent condensation on the bores, unless of course you take it indoors and keep it warm...

As for starting, then standing causing excessive oil consumption, that's a new one on me. I have had engines large and small stand and it's never happened in my experience, unless of course they have been thrashed from day one...

One of the best ways of ensuring low oil consumption is honing the bores properly, with 45 cross hatching, if that isn't done well then you may get excessive oil consumption. It's a slow painstaking task but worthwhile.

My two pence worth!

Last edited by 8 Valve Ed; 11th May 2015 at 17:43.. Reason: Adding detail
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  #27  
Old 12th May 2015, 07:54
Marc F Marc F is offline
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Sorry Ed, I wasnt clear. I was referring to the need to run the bores in, without which the rings evidently will never seal. And it is this aspect of running in that bothers me, if I just start it up occasionally to make me smile, will I be ruining the chances of getting the rings to settle.

On the original rebore, the cylinders have been nicely cross hatched, so I think it will be fine, subject to my concerns about whether to just run it in for 20 hours on the bench, or wait for it to be on the road.
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  #28  
Old 12th May 2015, 08:39
8 Valve Ed 8 Valve Ed is offline
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Running an engine for 20 hours on a bench won't run it in. Not unless you have a dyno to load the engine of course...

In my opinion starting it occasionally to move it and enjoy the experience shouldn't do any harm because in 'normal' use the various pastes and additives will be wiped and washed off the cam and other critical surfaces in minutes so they amalgamate with the engine oil pretty quickly in any case. The important thing is to be sure you have oil circulation, take the filler cap off and check the rocker shaft is oozing and splashing in oil.

An engine needs a load to run it in and make the rings 'work' I have had several large engines, among them a Cat D4 and Volvo 12 litre truck, which when started smoked like crazy and would do so all day if left just ticking over, within a minute of making them work the exhausts were as clean as a whistle and stayed like for the whole shift.

You have to work an engine to get it running right, that's what it's designed for and it takes at least 15 to 20 miles to get it warmed up properly. One reason why racing car engines wear out so quickly, they don't have time for the working temperature to soak right through the entire engine and get the tolerances right. Formula 1 engines are heated overnight so when they are started they are on song from the start, else they would seize and fly apart before the first corner.
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  #29  
Old 12th May 2015, 08:56
Marc F Marc F is offline
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Interesting, thanks. So your view would be the occasional morale boosting start up will do not significant harm.

As to running in, I wnder what "load" does to the pistons, as they only go upand down, so I would imagine revs more than "load". Towing a tractor woul still only require an up and down motion. So there must be more science to it than I can appreciate.

But can definitely see that the operating temperature will make a difference to the oil flow and movement of parts. Would an oil pre-heater make sense? I have seen them advertsied for winter use, so any thoughts please?
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  #30  
Old 12th May 2015, 12:53
8 Valve Ed 8 Valve Ed is offline
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If you read the instruction manuals for 50's - 60's cars they suggest a 500 to 1,000 mile 'breaking in' period. This means driving normally without revving the engine too hard nor letting it labour at slow speeds, driving gently (not towing tractors?). This gentle driving can be gradually be withdrawn after the breaking in period.

There are all sorts of anecdotes attached to this but revving an unloaded engine is bad because it places huge additional strain on the conrods and pistons. May seem crazy thing to say but if there is no load on the pistons the conrod has more to do yanking them to a halt at the top and bottom of the stroke, because there is less pressure or resistance, so it stretches and bends the rod more than usual. I know a lad who wrecked a really good Yamaha R6 racing bike engine just blipping the throttle, put a rod right through the side.

The original Austin Seven engine crank only had two bearings, a roller bearing at the front and a double row ball bearing at the back, when #'s 2 and 3 pistons rattled on the head it was time to change up. They very rarely broke the crank... Austin then decided to add a third bearing in the centre of the crank. Those engines didn't rev as well and they broke the cranks, which adds weigh to the argument that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

As for the pistons and rings, the rings need pressure to cause them to seal, if they are just flapping about in their groove they aren't sealing very well.

My son showed me a video of really good demonstration by James May of ejecting a piston from a slightly slack bore, compared with ejecting a piston from a perfect bore. The difference was significant. They used compressed air and something like a large air gun. It may even be on U-Tube somewhere, in fact that's probably where he found it...

For a normal 'old' road car I don't think there is any need to get too hung up about warming the oil and stuff. We used to heat the oil (Castrol 'R') before we went on rallies in winter but I think it was more of an adventure rather than from necessity. The historic racing lads still do it in cold weather because cold Castrol 'R' is a bit like syrup! Modern multigrade oil is a different thing altogether.

The only other thing I can say is avoid driving up big hills with a cold engine and change the oil regularly.
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  #31  
Old 13th May 2015, 09:08
Marc F Marc F is offline
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Ok, finally grasped the science behind this - load lets us open the throttle to increase the charge (and hence pressure in the bores) without over-revving the life out of it. I shall risk running the engine stationary as a morale booster during the build - worst that happens I can get the engine re-honed one winter if it fails to bed in properly. Thanks Ed - been useful.
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  #32  
Old 13th May 2015, 09:24
8 Valve Ed 8 Valve Ed is offline
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No probs Marc, glad to share the experiences of my misspent youth! LOL

For what it's worth my Rover V8 engine stood for at least two years with one carb missing and the other open on the dockside in Barrow.



There are watermarks on the bores, but no pitting. I have rebuilt the engine using the same shells and rings. It shows no signs of burning oil, granted very limited test running in garage but you can smell it if it is an oil burner, it doesn't smell. I honed the bores very carefully. Time will tell...

Good luck with your build.
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  #33  
Old 13th May 2015, 09:38
Marc F Marc F is offline
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Hmmm, a V8 Miglia...
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  #34  
Old 13th May 2015, 10:02
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Focus Marc, focus!!
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  #35  
Old 15th May 2015, 15:47
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Stuff focusing.... FIT THE V8!!
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  #36  
Old 15th May 2015, 19:08
8 Valve Ed 8 Valve Ed is offline
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Well I do have a couple of spares... Well I do but one's a P5 and the other needs decking and some work on it. Really want to keep it as a backup...

I do have a couple of Borg Warner type 65 boxes looking for a good home, very cheap or free... Am soon going to need the space.
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  #37  
Old 15th May 2015, 21:47
a big scary monster a big scary monster is offline
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I have occasionally hired 5kva diesel generators single cylinder air cooled hand start Lister Petter or lambardini engines with fixed revs with a load compensator and after about 3 weeks on site they start to rattle and clang and run hot and smell like they are burning oil, the chap from the hire shop comes out puts fresh oil in the air cleaners sump and engine then puts a load bank on them flicks the switches till its drawing near the generators Max load and leaves it like that for an hour or so, the engines labour and after a while kick soot out then they will run fine again for weeks, he says the bores glaze up when they are just running with little power being drawn off, he also said that once they started getting engine oil from a new supplier and all the diesel engines went down in quick succession turns out the new supplier was stickering up a better quality of oil and selling it as a lesser grade, seems simple diesel engines require load and reasonably poor oil to keep things bedded in, if the load bank trick doesn't work he has to strip and hone the bore and manually scrub clean the oil scraper piston ring.Ed
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  #38  
Old 15th May 2015, 22:23
8 Valve Ed 8 Valve Ed is offline
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I was going to say two Ed's are better than one, especially in a 90 configuration but it's getting late and I am tired...
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  #39  
Old 16th May 2015, 05:56
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Mister Towed Mister Towed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a big scary monster View Post
...all the diesel engines went down in quick succession turns out the new supplier was stickering up a better quality of oil and selling it as a lesser grade, seems simple diesel engines require load and reasonably poor oil to keep things bedded in, if the load bank trick doesn't work he has to strip and hone the bore and manually scrub clean the oil scraper piston ring.Ed
I read an article about squeezing the BMW E-30 six cylinder engine into a Marina based Marlin some time in the nineties, and the author recommended 'Happy Shopper' motor oil as the best lubricant for that engine for the same reason. I've got Mobil 1 in my Triumph six at the moment, but I've recently read that modern, high performance lubricants contain detergents and additives that can feck up an old engine, so will be changing it for 'Wilco' 10w 40 (around 9.99 for 5 litres) in a few weeks.
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  #40  
Old 16th May 2015, 06:53
8 Valve Ed 8 Valve Ed is offline
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Older engines rely on the fine sediment settling on the bottom of the sump and in nooks and crannies, because the oil filters of the day weren't capable of filtering out the fine particles without clogging.

If you go pre-war (WW2) few engines had oil filters at all. For those engines a basic straight 30 oil is better than even a basic multigrade. I believe that the demand for reliability in the field of war probably prompted the development of oil filtration, which was of course continued post war. 50's and 60's engines had an average 'life expectancy' of from 70 to 100 thousand miles, sometimes much less. I have had several cars in the last 30 years which have gone well beyond 250,000 miles untouched and with no special effort.

Modern oils keep the micro particles in suspension to allow them to be removed by the much more effective modern filters we have today. Another factor is the greatly improved metallurgy; the wearing parts of modern engines are greatly improved both in terms of wear resistance but also in terms of finish, the tolerances in modern engines can be much closer due to CNC machining and improved manufacturing techniques.
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