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Go Back   Madabout Kitcars Forum > Mad Build Area > Sammio Builds and discussions

Sammio Builds and discussions Sammio bodied car builds and specials

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  #1  
Old 30th January 2017, 13:05
softfeet softfeet is offline
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Default Wire wheels and tyre inner tubes

Many of you are using wire wheels on your cars. Are you using tubes with these? I understand that you are supposed to, unless the wire wheels are specifically designed to run without tubes, and these wheels are rare.

But tubes have their own issues – you cannot use tyres less than 70 profile with them; there is some belief that a puncture is safer in a tyre without a tube; although tubes can be put in tubeless tyres, care must be taken to ensure that the inside of the tyre is ‘smoothed’.

The restriction to 70 profile should not be a problem – I do not want to go lower because it will not look ‘period’, but many tyres are now 65 or 60 profile as standard, so tyre choice may be limited.

The belief that a puncture is safer in a tyre without a tube arises because in a puncture the tube would pop like a balloon and the air would escape into the space between the tube and the tyre and then out through the hole where the valve sits leading to almost instant deflation. Whereas with a tubeless tyre, the air would escape much more slowly through the hole in the tyre made by the puncture.

When fitting tubes in tubeless tyres, the inside of the tyre must be carefully checked for projections (ridges, labels, etc) and these should be removed before fitting. If not, they could chafe on the tube and cause unseen wear and possible failure. Tyre fitters would need to be made aware of this if they did not already know.

I am going to use 14” wheels on my special (not a Sammio but uses Spitfire chassis parts), probably with 155 or 165 section tyres. So I would be looking at 155/70R14, 165/70R14, 155/80R14 or 165/80R14. And I would need to use tubes.

There is a very wide choice of tyres in the 165/70R14 size, but very little is available in the other sizes.

I like the Avon ZT5, but the 155 14 is only available as a 65 profile tyre so could not be used with tubes. The 165 14 is available as a 70 profile, however.

Sorry for the long post, and sorry if it is in the wrong place, but there are lots of active ‘wire wheel’ users here!
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  #2  
Old 30th January 2017, 13:50
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Jaguartvr Jaguartvr is offline
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I run tubes on my Mk2 Jag and tubeless on the MWS bolt on wires on the Z3 as they are designed to be tubeless.

The Z3 wheels simply have a thick bead of silicone run around the inside of the wheel rim to seal the spokes. I have come across this method before on spoked motorcycle wheels that have been converted from inner tube to tubeless. I think one of the main issues is to get the silicone to be as smooth and to a constant thickness to keep the wheel balanced as much as possible.
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  #3  
Old 30th January 2017, 18:02
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Hi Softfeet, don't worry about the length of your post, you should see some of Paul L's...

I run tubed tyres on MGB 14" wires (not tubeless wheels), and I buy my reinforced tubes from a local (to me) tyre supplier in King's Lynn.

I was quite surprised that a modern tyre fitter still stocks tubes in just about every size, but they told me that there's a big market for them among Stock Car racers (there's a race track in King's Lynn).

The stock car racers fit tubes to tubeless tyres on their race cars because the tube keeps the tyre inflated and stops it coming off the rim under the massive side impact loads the wheels get during their 'contact' sport.

It's true that tubes are vulnerable to punctures from any debris that's in the tyre or stuck to the inside of the wheel when they're fitted, and in the last four years I've had two slow punctured tubes, both on the same wheel.

That wheel's got a bit of rust on the inside ends of a few spokes and the rust occasionally breaks free, wriggles out from under the big rubber band that covers the ends of the spokes (essential fitment with tubes), and slowly but surely rubs a tiny hole in the tube. This leaves me with not a lot of ground clearance (need to invest in a bag jack) but otherwise isn't too bothersome -



Both times the tyre has deflated very slowly, like over the course of a week, and, touch wood, I haven't suffered any blowouts, which I have on one occasion with a tubeless tyre on a mini at motorway speed back in the 80's.

Luckily it was an empty stretch of the M4 (is there any such thing these days?) and although it took me about half a mile and all three lanes plus the hard shoulder to finally get the car back under control I didn't actually hit anything, or I'd be typing this from the 'other side'...

There are pros and cons for both, so tubes or tubeless? You pays your money, you takes your choice.

As for the size you're going for, is there any reason you want to keep the tyres that narrow and with a 70 series profile? I ask because you might find that they look a bit small, depending on the car they're fitted to and the clearance you have around them.

I started out by fitting 175/70/14's to my Spyder, but they looked a bit lost in the arches compared to the 175/80/14's fitted to Phil and Barry's cars, so I swapped to that size (175 is the widest tyre you can safely fit to a 4.5" rim, btw) -

My car just looked too low to me in this shot -


175/80/14 on the left, 175/70/14 on the right, and it's surprising how much difference there is 'in the flesh' -


Here's my car on the 70 profiles -


...and on the 80 profiles -


Much better, and I'm sure it's the fat tyres rather than the fat driver that attract attention at shows...



So, hopefully that's given you a few things to think about, but I'm intrigued now, what car are you building? Pictures please...

Last edited by Mister Towed; 30th January 2017 at 18:08..
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  #4  
Old 30th January 2017, 18:14
molleur molleur is offline
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Those 80 profiles look just perfect!
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  #5  
Old 30th January 2017, 18:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by molleur View Post
Those 80 profiles look just perfect!
Thank you, they certainly look more period correct.

Real thing -


And my humble homage -
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  #6  
Old 30th January 2017, 18:54
molleur molleur is offline
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Spot on!
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  #7  
Old 31st January 2017, 06:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Towed View Post
Hi Softfeet, don't worry about the length of your post, you should see some of Paul L's...
Oi!

I resemble that remark.

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  #8  
Old 31st January 2017, 15:47
softfeet softfeet is offline
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Many thanks for the helpful replies.

I have read on American Triumph TR forums about converting ‘tubed’ wire wheels to ‘tubeless’ by using silicone and /or some sort of insulating tape, but I would not be happy going tubeless with a DIY method.

Why I am looking at tyres as narrow as 155 or 165? Because it will be a small, light, low powered car. I hope to decide on the most suitable wheel tyre combination and the fit the cycle style wheel arches to them, rather than pick wheels / tyres to fill the arches.

The choice of 70 profile arises because of the limited choice of 80 profile tyres available with that width on a 14” wheel.

As to the car….

30 years ago, I built a Dutton Phaeton; by now I have just about recovered from the experience. Incidentally, I built it in the ex-briefing room of a disused RAF Second World War bomber base in Cambridgeshire.

My new project is inspired by the various 1950s specials, such as the Speedex 750 and Hamblin Cadet. I have a 1.0 litre Coventry Climax FWMA derived engine. I also have Triumph GT6 front and rear hubs and driveshafts. I need to source a GT6 differential, steering rack, etc, but there is plenty of time for this. I am trying to use ‘period’ parts wherever possible. For example, I have a set of old Triumph TR3 instruments which are about to be reconditioned.

The chassis (currently in my head!) will be a simple multi-tube arrangement. The original ‘Locost’ might provide inspiration, but with its known faults corrected and made smaller in certain dimensions.

It will have a simple torpedo shape body with 4 separate cycle wings. It will be made out of aluminium. I am currently researching places that have wheeling machines, etc. There are still a few ‘old chaps’ who can do this sort of artistry, although I am very aware of the potential cost.

And yes, it will need to go through IVA.

It will not be a quick project, but like others have said, break it down into small modules and tackle each one as a separate project.

I will certainly put some pictures up when there is something to show!
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  #9  
Old 31st January 2017, 15:52
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Have a word with MWS and see if they can make a standard wire wheel tubeless.
On my set of tubeless wires, they were sent for a refurb, chemically cleaned and blasted and then a chrome effect powder coat baked on. All with the original silicone sealant left in place and they have held air for 6 months without needing any more air.
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  #10  
Old 31st January 2017, 16:00
softfeet softfeet is offline
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Thanks. I will do that. MWS seem a very helpful lot.
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  #11  
Old 31st January 2017, 16:02
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Interesting sounding project, look forward to seeing it slowly come together. As for finding period looking tyres at reasonable cost, have you tried Camskill? https://www.camskill.co.uk/m4b0s0p0/...yres_-_14_inch

They have 14" 80 series tyres in all sizes from 135 to 185, with the greatest choice (and vfm) to be found in the 175mm width.

If you step up to a 15" wheel, they do 80 aspect tyres from 125 to 185mm, and the 165/80/15 (largest choice in that wheel size) would quite possibly be a suitable tyre for your project in terms of looks and handling characteristics.

Anyway, keep us posted with progress.
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Old 31st January 2017, 16:05
softfeet softfeet is offline
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Thanks - that is really helpful. I will have a look at Camskill's website.
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  #13  
Old 3rd February 2017, 19:40
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Anyone looking for wires might be interested in these, look a decent high wall tyre, all in cheaper than a set of hub adaptors at the moment, just too far for me to travel.

Interestingly the seller is samspider

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222390913710

FIVE,TRIUMPH HERALD /VITESSE /SPITFIRE /BOND /GT6 /CHROME WIRE WHEELS/TYRES
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  #14  
Old 3rd March 2017, 19:25
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£530 !! Thats strong money ..but they will sort someone out !

Sam Spider ...Norfolk ? Towed ?
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Old 3rd March 2017, 20:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot link View Post
£530 !! Thats strong money ..but they will sort someone out !

Sam Spider ...Norfolk ? Towed ?
No, not me.
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