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Go Back   Madabout Kitcars Forum > Mad Build Area > Sammio Builds and discussions

Sammio Builds and discussions Sammio bodied car builds and specials

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  #41  
Old 16th January 2019, 19:37
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The methanol/water injection system was something I'd always been keen to put together and try. I'd come across it in the RAF as it was fitted to the Harriers we used to take the Falklands back and I knew it had been fitted to the Supermarine Spitfires we sent for the Russians to use against Adolf, which meant they could run on the sub-standard, low octane fuel that was all the Russians had available.

Without going into too much detail about the why's and wherefores, it did work very well, mostly - the engine ran much smoother and economy improved by about 10mpg with it switched 'on', but the very fine nozzle needed for a 100hp motor kept clogging up despite the filters in the system.

I removed it and sold it on ebay, for about 110 as I recall, which was around double what I'd spent on the parts (don't pay a tuning specialist 200 for a 'water injection' pump, it's actually a 30 fish-pond pump put to better use).

If I fit another low powered car with Methanol/Water injection, which I probably will, I'll go with a gravity fed exhaust manifold/capillary system, which is obviously much simpler than the high pressure pump, solenoid and superfine nozzle I used last time.

I would definitely be interested in relieving you of a fibreglass bulkhead. PM me with the deal you'd consider (hopefully a simpler one than Brexit) and we'll sort something out.
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  #42  
Old 17th January 2019, 07:34
Mick O'Malley Mick O'Malley is offline
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Default Methanol-Wasser 50

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Originally Posted by Mister Towed View Post
The methanol/water injection system was something I'd always been keen to put together and try. I'd come across it in the RAF as it was fitted to the Harriers we used to take the Falklands back and I knew it had been fitted to the Supermarine Spitfires we sent for the Russians to use against Adolf, which meant they could run on the sub-standard, low octane fuel that was all the Russians had available.

Without going into too much detail about the why's and wherefores, it did work very well, mostly - the engine ran much smoother and economy improved by about 10mpg with it switched 'on', but the very fine nozzle needed for a 100hp motor kept clogging up despite the filters in the system.

I removed it and sold it on ebay, for about 110 as I recall, which was around double what I'd spent on the parts (don't pay a tuning specialist 200 for a 'water injection' pump, it's actually a 30 fish-pond pump put to better use).

If I fit another low powered car with Methanol/Water injection, which I probably will, I'll go with a gravity fed exhaust manifold/capillary system, which is obviously much simpler than the high pressure pump, solenoid and superfine nozzle I used last time.

I would definitely be interested in relieving you of a fibreglass bulkhead. PM me with the deal you'd consider (hopefully a simpler one than Brexit) and we'll sort something out.
As a bit of a WWII aircraft geek, I was immediately reminded of this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MW_50

Regards, Mick
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  #43  
Old 17th January 2019, 08:51
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That's a great article, Mick, thanks for sharing it. It explains exactly why I fitted it - to allow the Vitesse engine, designed to take 100 octane (5-star) fuel, to run on 95 Octane modern unleaded without running in to detonation issues (pinking, for those old enough to remember that).

I tried various ratios of water to methanol and settled on a 10% methanol solution. The positive effects mostly come from the water anyway, so you could run 100% water injection, but some methanol still really needs to be added as it stops bacteria growing in the water and clogging up the pipes and nozzles.

The simplest form of water injection is just a water tank located above the exhaust downpipe but below the intake manifold, with a gravity fed copper capillary tube running from the water tank wound a dozen or so times around the exhaust downpipe. That is then connected to the air intake tract on the throttle side of any filters.

With the engine running, once the exhaust heats up, the water in the capillary that's wound round it boils. The steam created can't go back towards the tank because of the flow of cold water, so it exits the capillary into the intake tract, where it is sucked into the engine along with the incoming air.

As the wikipedia article explains, that has the effect of cooling the inlet charge and increasing its density, which can give around a 30% increase in power on a highly tuned engine (less so on a standard engine). Steam has been proven to have exactly the same effect as cold water in doing this, btw, and there are a host of side-benefits with no down-side.

My original plan on fitting it to my Spyder was to modify the engine, raising the compression ratio and fitting a wild cam to make best use of the benefits of water injection, but, in reality, around 100hp was quite enough to enjoy a very light car on the road anyway.

I can't say exactly how much extra power the system gave my mk1 Vitesse engine as the day I put it on the dyno to check was the day the system decided to clog itself up and stop working for the first time. That was ultimately down to the very fine nozzle needed on a low powered engine - I'd run the calculations to get the correct volume of water in the inlet charge and too much can cause a hydraulic lock in the engine which is likely to either bend the con rod, smash the crank out through the sump or blow the cylinder head off.

Anyway, that really sums up the joy of self-build cars - building and fitting a methanol/water injection system not because it needed it but just because I could.

Last edited by Mister Towed; 17th January 2019 at 08:54..
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  #44  
Old 17th January 2019, 18:02
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Was that what Nubodi were selling?
Snake oil?
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  #45  
Old 18th January 2019, 07:26
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Was that what Nubodi were selling?
Snake oil?
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  #46  
Old 18th January 2019, 07:43
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They were selling some kind of water injection system that gave greater mpg and performance.
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  #47  
Old 18th January 2019, 10:58
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A potential donor for someone in Scotland - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303031515969
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  #48  
Old 18th January 2019, 16:51
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Quote:
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They were selling some kind of water injection system that gave greater mpg and performance.
Ahh, okay, hadn't seen that. It does work, though.
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  #49  
Old 25th January 2019, 06:11
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As a matter of interest Mr Towed, where were you getting your methanol from and were you self-mixing?

I’ve just installed a system on my supercharged MGB Locost to reduce pinking. I’ve been put off self mixing a bit having read how nasty the stuff can be!

(If you are ex-RAF, then I’ll add....but not as nasty as AVPIN!)
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  #50  
Old 25th January 2019, 07:03
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I’ve been put off self mixing a bit having read how nasty the stuff can be!

(If you are ex-RAF, then I’ll add....but not as nasty as AVPIN!)
Ha ha, I didn't work on Lightnings - they were still operational for a decade while I was serving but I did my time variously on: Vulcans; Victors; Canberras; Phantoms; Buccaneers (all 3rd line completing major servicing on the canopy jettison systems and ejection seats); and front-line on Sea Harriers (attached to the Fleet Air Arm); Jaguars; and Tornado F3's and GR4's.

I also packed in a tour working on missile systems, participated in the ongoing EOD clearance of the Falklands (I blew up the 13,000,000th item of unexploded ordnance there in 1993), had a couple of positions in armouries and taught sabotage techniques to some troopers from a regiment that's a bit Special (my job at the time was to find and disable ied's in buildings and they wanted to know how to make that job more hazardous for my equivalent on the other side).

I did spend some time alongside a Lightning Squadron in Cyprus one year, and most of their Phlegms (Flight Line Mechanics) had brown scorch marks singed into the tops of their berets where they'd used them to put out Avpin fires on start up.

Ahh, memories...

Anyway, Methanol. You can buy it on ebay - I found an ebay supplier based in Norfolk who happened to have a boat moored a few miles from my house and I picked it up from him there. I was paying about 5/litre for 25 litres plus a one-off payment of another fiver for the (reusable) container. You can have it delivered, though, but it'll cost a bit more (quick ebay search threw this up) -

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20-Litres...Gxb8:rk:6:pf:0

Handling and storage are no problem so long as you follow some pretty basic health and safety rules - don't drink it, wear gloves and eye protection, keep it in a proper container with the hazard symbols clearly displayed so Trumpton know what it is if your garage catches fire, etc. I mixed it with distilled water, also available on ebay for around 4/litre -

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/25-LITRE-...6wo:rk:13:pf:0

To eliminate pinking, unless the instructions that came with your system* say otherwise I'd go with about 20% Methanol to 80% water. *Is it an 'off the shelf' system or did you build it yourself?

There's a lot of useful information on the 'net (and a load of crap from Jap turbo-drift-mod-tyres-too-narrow-for-my-wheels idiot bhp boasters who like to ruin Nissan 200SX's by 'improving' them). Anyone who's interested in the real benefits of water/methanol injection could do worse than starting here -

http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced...injection.html

While this is a useful chart detailing the nozzle size to choose for your engine's power output -

https://www.aemelectronics.com/forum...uld-i-be-using

Good luck with your supercharged motor, would like to see some pic's btw

Last edited by Mister Towed; 25th January 2019 at 07:06..
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  #51  
Old 25th January 2019, 11:12
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My car is actually featured in the current TKC mag - pre-water meth fitting... I made up the system from parts from Devils Own but used advice from various MGB forums. The nozzle blows through the centre of the airfilter and through the HS8 carb. The charger is from a Mini and was installed by the previous owner. I was having some issues with calibrating the pressure switch but with just water it ran a lot smoother. The switch is now sorted but I’m now waiting for decent weather to try it out...

I’ll work out how to post pictures on here and start a new thread somewhere to avoid a hijack!!

I used to fly Hercs - Avpin was hated by us when we carried it for the Canberras, we used to put it right on the edge of the ramp so if we had any probs we could chuck it overboard...the lightning had just left service as I joined unfortunately
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  #52  
Old 25th January 2019, 14:54
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Ooh, I got to see the World by Fat Albert, you may even have been driving one I was cargo in.

Did you happen to go out to Malaysia in '97 for the joint Special Forces' exercise 'Elang Osprey'? The Herc I was in had a faulty cabin conditioning system so it rained inside the aircraft when we descended. We always felt that the Herc fleet just didn't do maintenance. We also got diverted into Colombo right in the middle of the civil war, which was rather disconcerting.

All the Canberras I worked on were cartridge start while everything else was either electric start from a Houchin or pressure started from a Palouste, so I didn't suffer the delights of invisibly burning overalls experienced by those working with Avpin.

I did deal with a few start up and brake fires, and I also had an F16 dump Hydrazine all over the pan in Saudi while I was bombing up a nearby Tornado, though. Now that's really nasty stuff that eats anything organic, including people.

The Lightning went out of service in 1988 and I was in the Guard of Honour at the parade at Binbrook where 5 Squadron (Lightnings) handed over the colours to 5 Squadron (Tornado F3's).

There was a barrel afterwards and when I got on the bus back to Coningsby I found that a bunch of our lineys had 'borrowed' a drill Firestreak missile that they'd found just lying around, apparently, and had managed to load it on the bus as a 'gizzit'.

Anyway, with apologies to Mickey for the thread hijack, that's enough reminiscing for now.

Last edited by Mister Towed; 25th January 2019 at 14:58..
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  #53  
Old 27th January 2019, 15:19
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Working on the 2CV based Leighton I'v fitted the body hinges.
The boot hinges on the front edge giving maximum access.



The bonnet has been cut allowing for the dash to remain fixed.



Also fitted most of the bulkhead sealing panels.

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  #54  
Old 27th January 2019, 17:53
molleur molleur is offline
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I like it!
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  #55  
Old 24th February 2019, 11:46
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Delivered a Spyder body to a new customer and after a long chat traded a wind screen and half tonneau cover for this.



His son abandoned it a few years ago. He thought it was a Z600.
Turns out it's a ZX10.
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  #56  
Old 11th April 2019, 20:09
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Had a chap come to look at the Spyder and his mate expressed a serious interest in the "D" type!
I dusted it off, got it out and onto my newly installed 2 post ramp so he can have a better look next visit.



The project has been overlooked due to a few build problems.
One of the problem has been awaiting a friend who promised make a very tricky Stainless steel exhaust downpipe.



Some how the new downpipe has to exit the manifold 90% to the engine, snake across the bulkhead and finally curve backward along the chassis rail to enable me to fit a side mounted exhaust silencer much like the original "D" type has!! I think this is why I hav'nt heard from him for a while.
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  #57  
Old 12th April 2019, 07:53
Mick O'Malley Mick O'Malley is offline
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Question D-Type Exhaust

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Somehow the new downpipe has to exit the manifold 90% to the engine, snake across the bulkhead and finally curve backward along the chassis rail to enable me to fit a side mounted exhaust silencer much like the original "D" type has!!

Hi Micky

I believe only the prototype, early cars, and the XKSS had side exhausts. I plumped for a rear exit on my A352, which was simple to achieve. Scottie's side exiting version was considerably more complex, but then he was going for the full XKSS look. Here's XKD503 at Bromyard last Sunday. If I'd known we'd be talking exhausts I'd have taken it at a more oblique angle.



Anyway, good luck with build whichever route you take .

Regards, Mick
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  #58  
Old 12th April 2019, 10:41
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I was going for the simple rear exit exhaust but it hung to low under the chassis so it's got to be the complicated side exit.
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  #59  
Old 12th April 2019, 17:53
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After much effort and no success trying to contact my friend regarding the new down pipe I though I would fabricate one using the original down pipe.

This is not my best work but it'll do the job.



Turning the original exhaust down pipe from this.



To a bespoke side exit exhaust pipe.

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  #60  
Old 12th April 2019, 18:29
molleur molleur is offline
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That will work just fine!
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