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Go Back   Madabout Kitcars Forum > Mad Build Area > Sammio Builds and discussions

Sammio Builds and discussions Sammio bodied car builds and specials

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  #21  
Old 28th September 2016, 20:18
garyh garyh is offline
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I've got an original, too. No.67.this story reminds me of that film with Ingrid Bergman and old Rolls Royce. glad you're back, Gary.
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  #22  
Old 28th September 2016, 20:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho pops View Post
...while slight improvements may have been warranted there are some of us on here with GJ originals and happy, yes we could have had simpler packages that would slot together over a couple of months but that was never the ethos, cheap kits with scope for builders input as far as I can see.. it works for me.
+1
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  #23  
Old 28th September 2016, 22:44
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+2
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  #24  
Old 29th September 2016, 07:35
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I do like GJ Originals................... might get a badge for mine
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  #25  
Old 29th September 2016, 20:57
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Time to put this to bed!!!!!


When I was approached to continue this saga I was a little surprized so entered with much caution.
I knew there had been issues with both Gary and Andy and it's reputation was questionable but, I though the business foundations were solid so followed it through.
One thing was for sure it would take a lot of time, money and effort.
I wanted to protect my investment the best way I could hence the trade mark.
It turned out I was right to do so as the only thing worth saving was the original Spyder mould and the SAMMIO name.

This trade mark has been in place for a little over a year with no problem or issues until now and that's only because there was a misunderstanding between a few people.
That misunderstanding is now sorted.

To sum up.
If you want a SAMMIO Spyder body please get in contact and buy one.
If you want a SAMMIO Spyder body and don't want to build it yourself please ask me to build it for you.
If you want a SAMMIO Spyder and don't want to build it yourself, don't want me to build it for you but want some body else to build it for you please ask first.

Only this way can keep some degree of quality control regarding the build standard and go some way to protecting and getting a return on my investment.
In simple terms a kit sale results in a few hours work and a few hundred pounds profit but a kit build result in a few weeks work and a few thousand pounds profit.

The SAMMIO Spyder is around 5 years old but the body is a timeless shape (a credit to GJ ) and still receives potential purchase inquires of around 5 a month so it's worth saving.
IMHO the only reason the Spyder is still going are the stunning cars built by you the owners who not only build them drive them and show them off you even promote them to the public! Many thanks.
That said the moulds are getting tired and will need a makeover soon,
Maybe even make them fit a new donor, the shape wouldn't change just what's underneath, the MX5 Mk2 is only an inch different in the wheelbase??? .
The original cage-frame jig was destroyed but due to popular demand I have been asked to start making the cage-frames to complete the Spyder package, this is some thing I will do over the next few weeks once I get my hands on a Spyder body.


As for the web site information. For the past 3 months I have been on a rolling 4 week notice period to quit my unit due to a planning application so I am hoping for the best but planning for the worst.

Trust everyone is now happy the big-bad trade mark man will not come and get you and your SAMMIO in the night.
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  #26  
Old 29th September 2016, 21:40
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5 enquiries a month will not return any sales if you place too many caveats on your purchaser, How many kits languish in sheds unfinished ? No one starts out with this in mind but unfinished cars are sold on all the time and may go through several different builders before completion. Once the kit is sold it's got to be out of your hands and the quality down to the purchaser... you have to let go sometime..
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  #27  
Old 29th September 2016, 22:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micky1mo View Post
Time to put this to bed!!!!!


When I was approached to continue this saga I was a little surprized so entered with much caution.
I knew there had been issues with both Gary and Andy and it's reputation was questionable but, I though the business foundations were solid so followed it through.
OK ....

Quote:
One thing was for sure it would take a lot of time, money and effort.
I wanted to protect my investment the best way I could hence the trade mark.
OK....

Quote:
It turned out I was right to do so as the only thing worth saving was the original Spyder mould and the SAMMIO name.
My understanding was you only got the moulds and not all of them as the Cordite moulds appeared on ebay about a year ago and you didn't get any of the framejigs

Quote:
This trade mark has been in place for a little over a year with no problem or issues until now and that's only because there was a misunderstanding between a few people.
That misunderstanding is now sorted.
Nearly 2 years - but thats not important ...I haven't had any conversation which has sorted out any misunderstanding.

Quote:
To sum up.
If you want a SAMMIO Spyder body please get in contact and buy one.
Agreed.......... buying from source is best ...so Im assuming Tribute are out of the equation as far as supply enquiries are concerned ?

Quote:
If you want a SAMMIO Spyder body and don't want to build it yourself please ask me to build it for you.
Agreed . It would certainly make sense to keep builds in-house if that is a viable and credible option .

Quote:
If you want a SAMMIO Spyder and don't want to build it yourself, don't want me to build it for you but want some body else to build it for you please ask first.
Sorry mate ..regardless of how sewn up you think you have secured the name and brand ...once someone buys it from you and it becomes their property , I would assume ( show me the legislation that proves me wrong ) they are free to enter into a contract with anyone they want to build that car..I should imagine your 'grip' will be loosened even more when bodies and projects change hands in the second hand market place ....or should all proposed sales be offered back to you for first refusal ? Good luck with that !!

How will you ensure buyers honour your wishes ? sign a contract ? Would a buyer who refuses to sign the contract be turned away ?

Quote:
Only this way can keep some degree of quality control regarding the build standard and go some way to protecting and getting a return on my investment.
RUDE . What about quality control on self builds ? how are you going to stop shoddy homebuilds from tarnishing the brand and affecting your investment ?
Are you saying that your build quality is of a higher standard than anybody else ? We had a Tribute Agent making similar claims recently and he has crashed and burned quite dramatically as a result of his attitude . How do you intend to make your assessment on professional builders ability ?

Quote:
In simple terms a kit sale results in a few hours work and a few hundred pounds profit but a kit build result in a few weeks work and a few thousand pounds profit.
And your point is ?? Obviously a few hours payment will always be less than a few weeks work ..that applies to everything ...are you saying you resent the fact that a builder would , in return for their labour , be getting more money from the kit purchase scenario than the original supplier ? Surely , in most cases the cost of having your Cobra , Ferrari replica , whatever ,built professionally will be greater than the initial kit purchase ? To say , I want all the money from the process , I must make all the money , is just a bit blinkered , childish , greedy ..? whatever you want to call it ...

Quote:
The SAMMIO Spyder is around 5 years old but the body is a timeless shape (a credit to GJ ) and still receives potential purchase inquires of around 5 a month so it's worth saving.
Around 7 and a half years old actually ..but thankyou for the compliment .. 5 enquiries a month ? whos getting the enquiries ? Chris hasn't been and hes been at the helm for a while now ....I asked to offer the bodies alongside Chris's other bodies because Chris was disappointed in the lack of interest they all get for various reasons , mostly lack of promotion ...

Quote:
IMHO the only reason the Spyder is still going are the stunning cars built by you the owners who not only build them drive them and show them off you even promote them to the public! Many thanks.
Agreed , some very credible cars have been created over the last 7 years , a great community has also grown up alongside the builds ..and its the forum thats probably kept the brand buoyant ...certainly not self promotion

Quote:
That said the moulds are getting tired and will need a makeover soon,
Yes they do ....

Quote:
Maybe even make them fit a new donor, the shape wouldn't change just what's underneath, the MX5 Mk2 is only an inch different in the wheelbase??? .
REALLY Bad idea ... lots of reasons why that wont work on a commercial basis .....The shape would have to change quite dramatically to avoid IVA ...Trust me , I know the shape very well and I looked at the MX5 option and , although a car can be built around the donor , it will be significantly different to the current S*mmio

Quote:
The original cage-frame jig was destroyed but due to popular demand I have been asked to start making the cage-frames to complete the Spyder package, this is some thing I will do over the next few weeks once I get my hands on a Spyder body.
Good idea ...But where are all the frame enquiries coming from as no ones bought any volume of bodies for about 3 years ...who buys a S*mmio framework only for their Herald donor ? ....NASA ?


Quote:
As for the web site information. For the past 3 months I have been on a rolling 4 week notice period to quit my unit due to a planning application so I am hoping for the best but planning for the worst.
OH ...So the Sammio Motor Company may be moving ? The wording on the website suggested differently to me , but thats cool ...hopefully the upheaval of moving wont affect your builds too much ..

Quote:
Trust everyone is now happy the big-bad trade mark man will not come and get you and your SAMMIO in the night.
Not happy no ...and no intention of not building a S*mmio for someone if I'm asked to do so ...

Last edited by lancelot link; 29th September 2016 at 23:26.. Reason: aded more frustrations , more questions and punctuation corrections
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  #28  
Old 30th September 2016, 06:26
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BREAK! Back to your corners. Right, I want a clean fight, no gouging, no biting and no punching below the belt...

Micky, you do need to look at the fine print in the copyright laws. After all, Lego don't get to dictate what children make out of their blocks and who gets to play with them, just stop anybody else using the trade name or making an identical product under a different brand name.

Gary, I know this was your baby but it's grown up and left home. Acrimonious nit-pickery of Micky's post doesn't do you any credit, a dignified silence might have been more appropriate in this instance.

Not picking sides here, but I do agree with the comments regarding the MX5 being unsuitable as a donor - it's too wide and you can't lose the ugly windscreen without IVA. If Triumph donors start to become difficult to source, I feel a better option would be a dedicated spaceframe chassis in Locost style. That would allow the dimensions to be dictated by the body design rather than constricted by the donor.

Now, play nicely everyone.
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  #29  
Old 30th September 2016, 07:05
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TOWED ...I know what you are saying and maybe I should just bite my lip ...difficult though when someone tells you you cant carry out your business in a certain way , because they don't like it and throw ''legal'' reasons at you in an attempt to stop you , that are unfounded ...I have let go of the S*mmio brand ..a long time ago , I don't feel I have any rights to how it is modified or marketed , I ''sold out'' years ago ...My issue was purely that I was told that I could offer the product by its current custodian and then told by S*mmio I couldn't ...that's fair enough ..I have no problem with that now... . It was an attempt to regenerate the bodyshell sales because NOTHING has been happening with them for a while and I am confident that they still are a commercially viable product - just !

I had a genuine enquiry from a forum user for a bodyshell ..unfortunately I cannot honour that enquiry now and I won't be forwarding their details either but I know they lurk a lot on here , so they can contact whoever they need to contact themselves ..Sorry mate ...

I wanted a S*mmio body for myself too ...... I may well still buy one at some point , but for now , I have changed my order and ordered a Miglia body from Tribute ..

My beef is purely that I don't feel that I can be told by a third party how and what I do to make a living .....I think its a bit odd that S*mmio HQ talk about regenerating the product to a level it was previously at and want 100% control of the build process ....Its not viable and very short sighted ...I had no issue with commercial builders when I was in charge ...more builders , more kit sales !

I think the real issue here , is me ...genuinely , Tribute were given the rights to promote and sell the bodies in exactly the way they wanted to ... S*mmio HQ were happy for all enquiries and sales to be handled by them , so they could get the 'planning' issues dealt with . When Chris invited me into the equation ...it all went tits !! Add the fact that I then said ..''hey everybody , you buy a kit , I can help you build it '' and S*mmio's pram was well and truly emptied ...its no secret , on here and full knowledge of Tribute and S*mmio HQ that there is another local builder , actively building S*mmios constantly , selling both on Ebay etc and doing commission builds for customers ...this builder has bought bodyshells unchallenged and been allowed to go about his business without question ...he's built far more S*mmio's than I have in recent years ...so more of a threat to the big plan than I am ... .. so , it definitely looks like I am the issue not the practice of building S*mmio's .....or does the other local builder have a problem now too ?

The only reason I dissected Micky1mo 's post above was to highlight how ridiculous the content of it generally was ..and how unthought out the statement was



Quote:
Micky, you do need to look at the fine print in the copyright laws. After all, Lego don't get to dictate what children make out of their blocks and who gets to play with them, just stop anybody else using the trade name or making an identical product under a different brand name.
Thats a good comparison Towed , interestingly , there are several ''similar'' products on the market nowadays though ..

Last edited by lancelot link; 30th September 2016 at 07:54..
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  #30  
Old 30th September 2016, 07:47
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Why copyright something and then lock it in the cupboard?
Why buy into something and not produce and market it?
This was a popular product for a good price that customers were buying. If you make an investment in business you want a return on it, what has happened here makes no sense at all.
With solicitors charging £230 an hour on average I can't imagine anyone challenging anything on this.
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  #31  
Old 30th September 2016, 17:42
Jeff H Jeff H is offline
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What a Mental situation,

I think some body is not taking their meds.

I did hear Electric shock treatment is good for this sort of thing.....
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  #32  
Old 30th September 2016, 21:22
garyh garyh is offline
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That's a lot writing... and no pictures...
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  #33  
Old 30th September 2016, 23:08
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This is an interesting topic that has some merit to it so I would welcome it not descending to the level of other past topics but discussed sensibly.

I have a very basic level of understanding of trademark and copyright but it would seem the two are getting intermingled in the discussion.

Clearly the Sammio shape is copyright as it's an original design and this would have been initiated with Gary but assume this copyright has passed via worded contract to the new owners over the years and presently lays with Micky1mo. So no direct copying of the Sammio shape and re-selling commercially regardless of the SAMMIO name.

The SAMMIO trademark from my understanding simply means you can't use commercially the SAMMIO name under the classes listed for commercial purposes, ie it doesn't mean you can't write SAMMIO in a forum discussion for instance.

It would also seem clear to me, and fair, that a 3rd party can't use the word SAMMIO in a commercial basis under the protected classes to promote their own business without express permission from the IP holder. It doesn't mean, as far as my understanding goes, that a 3rd party can't build a SAMMIO for a customer, just that he can't use the name SAMMIO in advertising/promotional material etc without consent.

It's also expected from a Trademark holder to defend their trademark where they feel there is a breach as there can be ramifications if they don't as the trademark term can end up losing it's uniqueness. This can very easily become extremely expensive to defend of course.

Whatever the outcome I hope all parties can reach an amicable agreement where the SAMMIO carries on finding willing homes and that all parties do well financially to carry forward the SAMMIO name.

We want to see more stories where people are getting together with their cars and enjoying them.

John

Last edited by JG; 30th September 2016 at 23:11..
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  #34  
Old 1st October 2016, 08:04
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Where to start….

First of all, I agree with JG/John's understanding of the trademark and copyright laws.

E.g.
I can take my Mondeo to an official Ford garage for a service, or to an independent garage.
Both places can do the same standard of work and use official Ford parts.
However, only one can officially use the Ford logo in their service book "stamp".

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Therefore, in the case of the Sammio Spyder, only Micky1mo (or his official agents) can sell the kit.

If someone wants an official "factory" build, then, again, Micky1mo (or his official agents) are the only choice.

However, once someone has bought the kit officially, what they do with it after that is clearly up to them.

E.g.
This guy bought a Bentley Continental and turned it into a 3,000hp drag racer.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I think the only way to prevent people doing something "unofficial" with their kit would be a very onerous sales contract.

At which point you will either experience no sales, or spend all your resources on lawyers chasing people who do something like this to their kit.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Which leads me to, what I see as, the slight irony of using the word "quality control" and "Sammio" in the same sentence.

Now I want to stay within JG/John's guidelines and "play nice", but there needs to be a reality check at this point.

I have always been positive about the original Sammio Spyder and think that "cheap and cheerful" is a fair description.

However, the fact that so many builders have created so many top quality examples is not linked to the quality of the original kit.
( See the "Useful Info" sticky for more examples. )





- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Suggestion Box:

Original Sammio Spyder
- Update the moulds to remove the few small issues that the builders were excepted to fix themselves.
- Update the internal framework to match, perhaps with some optional extras (e.g. handbrake & exhaust mounts).

New Sammio Spyder/Alpha
- Put a final version of this kit into production.



Stick to two simple Sammio products, one for the Herald and one for the Spitfire.

In addition, the new Spitfire build approach should be significantly faster than the original.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Sammio vs. Tribute:
Personally, I think the kit car world has moved on since the original Sammio Spyder was launched.

Tribute's A352 came out after the Cordite was launched and their Z3 range hadn't even been started.

Yet, the number of finished Tribute cars on their "Useful Info" sticky is simply staggering by comparison to "ours".

There are very few long term Tribute builds, yet spending 3/4/5 years building a Sammio is the norm.

I meet Oxford a few weeks old and we both agreed how important the forum was to our builds.

But any relaunched Sammio Spyder has to appeal against the competition.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

2017 Sammio/Ribble/Miglia Gathering:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JG View Post
…We want to see more stories where people are getting together with their cars and enjoying them…
Perhaps we should arrange a get together next Summer, when the good weather returns?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Anyway, that is more than enough from me.

Cheers, Paul.

PS
GaryH - I hope I have got the balance of words and photos right.
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  #35  
Old 1st October 2016, 09:15
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Hi Paul, I believe you are wrong ( hushed silence falls)
The kit car market hasn't changed since the Sammio it had already evolved before, GJ just brought it back to a level for a market left behind, I have enjoyed the simplicity of the kit , the challenges and frustrations.
Would I do it again, yes without a doubt but this time better.✊
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  #36  
Old 1st October 2016, 09:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho pops View Post
Hi Paul, I believe you are wrong ( hushed silence falls)
The kit car market hasn't changed since the Sammio it had already evolved before, GJ just brought it back to a level for a market left behind, I have enjoyed the simplicity of the kit , the challenges and frustrations.
Would I do it again, yes without a doubt but this time better.✊
Pops is right, in the 50's cars were much easier to modify and the enthusiast had lots of options.

These are just a few -
http://www.fordspecials.co.uk/index.html
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  #37  
Old 1st October 2016, 09:40
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Pops & Roadster - Well, I've certainly been wrong before.

I'm just heading out the door now, so I'll write a better reply tonight/tomorrow.
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  #38  
Old 1st October 2016, 11:09
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I pretty much agree with everything above but I think , not sure totally , but think , when it comes to this ...


Clearly the Sammio shape is copyright as it's an original design and this would have been initiated with Gary but assume this copyright has passed via worded contract to the new owners over the years and presently lays with Micky1mo. So no direct copying of the Sammio shape and re-selling commercially regardless of the SAMMIO name.


I'm pretty sure that the IPR stays with me regardless of sale of product etc...its a tricky one but my contract with Andy Powell originally never passed it over and even stated that I could continue to trade as The Sammio Motor Car Company ...something I chose not to do at that point.

I'm also pretty sure there is no contract between Andy and Micky1mo ...as ownership of the moulds by my understanding was obtained by removing them from the appointed laminators in lieu of monies owed by Ribble to Replica Rides ...this is why the jigs aren't in RR's ownership , I believe too ...

but all that aside , I think IPR ..For what its worth , stays with the originator ...

As Miglia have proved a few simple changes , over come that obstacle anyway ...

I only used the S*mmio name in my advertising as permissions were given to me by their 'custodian' to do so ...as that arrangement is a word of mouth contract between RR and Tribute ...I accept that it can be subject to change.

I am very happy to not use the name in my advertising ..I assume advertising a vehicle or part of is acceptable as Autotrader would be a strange read if manufacturers were to stop that !!!

I will not be selling new S*mmio bodies .
I will not be selling or promoting any new S*mmio products.
I will not be involved in the promotion or production of any S*mmio items at all.

I will be building S*mmio's as and when it happens .
I will be producing an alternative to the S*mmio with a very similar feel to it and a very similar build style ..

It will not look anything like the 'resting' Alpha concept.
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  #39  
Old 1st October 2016, 11:24
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As regards Pauls comment ....

I agree the kit car world has changed , the 'glue on' style of build very much dominates the scene nowadays ...as a result of donor vehicle choices being restricted to monocoques nowadays and legislation changes .

In order for the hobby to survive , kit production has to stay up with modern changes ...

early kit cars were built in the style I adopted for the S*mmio ...I totally went back to the beginning with a total rebody on a rolling chassis in the way that Ford Pops and Austin 7's were utilized in the 50's and 60's ...

As cars like , predominantly Mini's and Beetles became affordable donors , the scene swang that way and every body style you can imagine has graced a Beetle chassis ...

The scene stepped up a notch in the 80's and 90's with custom built chassis , suspension etc and the quality went up somewhat too ..as well as the prices !

IVA and suitable donor options changed the scene in the 00's and we started to see the glue ons , as a way of avoiding the issues presenting themselves and it has been a very positive thing for the industry...

Amongst other things , it has made building 'dream ' cars easier for many ...and brought a lot of people into the Hobby that might not have joined in 20 years ago ...

I think the type of people building S*mmio's , Miglias and A352's etc are a different builder to the glue on crowd ....no better , no worse ..just different .
The 'Special builders' are just a bit more classic motivated , or 'old school' if you like ..

I think the glue ons are a positive thing and Tribute and DNA etc have turned out fantastic options for people ...My heart lies with traditional builds personally , but thats my background and no reflection on the current state of the industry or its future ...

Last edited by lancelot link; 1st October 2016 at 11:27..
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  #40  
Old 1st October 2016, 18:18
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Paul, you got the balance right coz I read it...
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