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Go Back   Madabout Kitcars Forum > Mad Build Area > Vintage and Classic Roadster Kit Car Builds

Vintage and Classic Roadster Kit Car Builds For Vintage and Classic era kit cars. Post your build reports, problems and progress here

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  #201  
Old 21st August 2019, 11:26
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redratbike redratbike is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaeton View Post
Plenty of people running around with no VED or Insurance on their cars either but it doesn't make it right.

Oh before you get snotty I wasn't comparing what @Colin HD has done with those morons.
Definitely didn’t intend to come across as snotty

I can see you do not like hotrods .. I have come across 2 types built dangerously with serious engineering issues and those built to a good to high spec.

Obviously the dangerous ones we do not want on the road but now a lot are MOT exempt it’s a losing battle
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  #202  
Old 21st August 2019, 11:51
Colin HD Colin HD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redratbike View Post

Obviously the dangerous ones we do not want on the road but now a lot are MOT exempt it’s a losing battle
Oi Red!
You saying my car is dangerous!!!???!!!



Just kidding!!!
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  #203  
Old 21st August 2019, 12:03
Phaeton Phaeton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redratbike View Post
I can see you do not like hotrods ..
You are very much mistaken on that
Quote:
Originally Posted by redratbike View Post
I have come across 2 types built dangerously with serious engineering issues and those built to a good to high spec.
I've come across a lot more that that, they range from OMG that is awesome, look at the detail, to OMG I'm not sure I'm safe even stood this close let alone driving it. I would put Colin's far closer to the first than the second.
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Originally Posted by redratbike View Post
Obviously the dangerous ones we do not want on the road but now a lot are MOT exempt it’s a losing battle
This is true,
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  #204  
Old 21st August 2019, 12:20
Colin HD Colin HD is offline
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Unfortunately, I guess a lot of it comes down to personal risk assessment, as in what someone sees as a risk, either to themselves or others: health, wallet & liberty.

Example: I can tack weld bits together, but someone else weld my seatbelt brackets.
I chose health as my risk assessment.

Others look at things in different ways.
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  #205  
Old 21st August 2019, 16:30
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Colin - It is great to see your car out and about.



I assume you get a great reaction wherever you go.

Enjoy, Paul.
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  #206  
Old 21st August 2019, 19:33
Colin HD Colin HD is offline
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Hey thanks Paul, gets great reactions, some just don't know what to make of it, others want to know what 'kit' it is and every now & then some know the Roth connection.

Out of respect to the learned/seasoned members on here (and one less reason to get pulled for) I solemnly swear that from now on, I will run with my mudguards on!



And don't even start on me about their construction or I will get a sad and sulk!!
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Last edited by Colin HD; 21st August 2019 at 19:37..
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  #207  
Old 22nd August 2019, 07:18
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Mister Towed Mister Towed is offline
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Nothing wrong with those mudguards, they just add to the whole bonkers theme.

Don't want to labour the point and spoil your thread with an endless debate about the whole daytime MOT thing so my final input on that theme (I promise) is this:

The most up to date version of the tester manual I could find contradicts itself. It says -

4.1.1 Presence, condition and operation
You must test all mandatory headlamps.


Mandatory headlamps’ are a matched pair of main beam headlamps and a matched pair of dipped-beam headlamps.


It uses the word 'Mandatory'. The definition of Mandatory is -

Something that is mandatory must be done, or is demanded by law:


The test manual then continues -

You do not need to test headlamps on vehicles if:

they're not fitted with front or rear position lamps
they have front or rear position lamps that are permanently disconnected, painted over or masked


So, that says that you don't need to have any headlights fitted at all so long as you also don't have front and rear position lamps to pass an mot.

But it then says -

Defect
A headlamp:
with up to ˝ light sources not functioning in the case of LED - Minor

Missing, inoperative or more than ˝ not functioning in the case of LED - Major


Hmm, so if a mandatory headlight isn't fitted or doesn't work then it's a major defect -

Major MOT faults
A 'major' fault is more serious, poses a potential safety risk to drivers and others. It could also be a defect that has a damaging impact on the environment. These faults will result in an MOT failure and the owner will not be issued with an MOT pass certificate until the issues have been rectified.


So, according to that, presenting a vehicle with missing, disconnected, painted or masked headlights would leave you with a 'fail' due to at least one major defect.

I still haven't been able to find the 'daytime MOT' clause pasted in some replies in the current (2018) test manual https://www.mot-testing.service.gov....ml#section_4.1 but I can see that there's room for a great deal of confusion in the ambiguous and self-contradictory guidance I've detailed above.

I've also read quite a few threads where this is debated, pistonheads, etc, and everyone's got a mate who says he was acquitted at court but I couldn't find a single genuine legal case reported online, which suggests that either nobody's being prosecuted or nobody's being acquitted.

There were, however, several arguments like this one put forward on pistonheads:

A lot of people here seem confused that you can subsequently get nicked on roadworthiness grounds for driving/riding a vehicle which has passed an MOT test. (...) an MOT test is not, and never has been, a pass/fail test for full compliance with legal standards of roadworthiness under various conditions of usage.

Full debate here - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/...&t=1696934&i=0

That outlines my position perfectly - the fact that a vehicle can pass an MOT on a loophole in the tester's manual doesn't necessarily make it road legal.

Ultimately, complying with The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations is a legal requirement for any vehicle, as defined by the regulations, being used on the road.

Those regulations use the term 'Mandatory' in relation to headlamps, listing only a handful of exemptions.

There is no exemption for vehicles driven by people who promise to only drive during the day and in good visibility.

The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations (Law) outranks and overrules the MOT tester's handbook (guidance).

That means that headlights (and any other Mandatory lighting relevant to the class and/or age of the vehicle) must be fitted for the vehicle to be legally used on the road, day or night.

Oh, and although I never prosecuted a single classic, kitcar or hotrod owner, I did occasionally bring successful prosecutions against drivers with imaginative modifications like 'smoked' rear brake lights that couldn't bee seen in daylight, tiny number plates on the front of Japanese coupes that could't be read, someone driving a completely stripped bodyshell back from the painters while sitting on a toolbox and bikers for riding on the road in a way bikers believe is legal - hint, don't ride through the scene of a serious RTC after a copper in a florry jacket has told you to stop and stay where you are just because he's turned his back on you for a second.

Every single one who took it to court argued that they were complying with the law because they had an mot or believed they knew the law better than plod, but do you know what? I only ever lost one Road Traffic case in Court, an ice cream van driver on his mobile phone whose response to being acquitted was to gush 'Oh, thank you, I won't do it again...'

My case rests.
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  #208  
Old 22nd August 2019, 11:35
Dpaz Dpaz is offline
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Your mudguards are barmy but in a good way. How about cutting the tread off a similar tyre to make mudguards? Keep up the barmyness, long live Ed Roth and the monsters. What was going on in his head? His dreams must have been horrendous!
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  #209  
Old 22nd August 2019, 12:46
Colin HD Colin HD is offline
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I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree, but as far as I read it:

As per the MOT testers Manual:
4.1.1 Presence, condition & operation
‘Mandatory headlamps’ are a matched pair of main beam headlamps.
The ‘defect’ (major fail) reason for fail.
(a) A Headlamp: one (1) of the ‘matching pair’
(ii) missing

The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 (ignoring the 2017 Amendment – Just boring washers etc.)
Exemptions – General - 4

(3) Nothing in these Regulations shall require any lamp or reflector to be fitted between sunrise and sunset to –
• (a) A vehicle not fitted with any front or rear position lamp.

(4) Without prejudice to regulation 16 (blue lights) for the purpose of these Regulations a lamp shall not be treated as being a lamp if it is-
• (a) painted over….
• (b) no wiring (paraphrased)

So as you say Regs trump MOT - lamps are NOT required to be fitted a vehicle between wakey wakey & bedtime!

Last edited by Colin HD; 22nd August 2019 at 12:52..
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  #210  
Old 22nd August 2019, 13:09
Colin HD Colin HD is offline
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I'm not trying to be a smartarse, dickhead or whatever and have no intention of breaking rules & Laws.

We see a car without headlights and its not 'normal' so we instinctively assume it is illegal.
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  #211  
Old 22nd August 2019, 13:25
Colin HD Colin HD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Towed View Post

Don't want to labour the point and spoil your thread with an endless debate
No, quite the opposite, I encourage healthy debate and will not tolerate resorting to name calling.

It is good that we discuss the rules and Laws!

Maybe I've got it all wrong in my understanding and interpretations.
Maybe there are others out there looking to build 'left field' cars.
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  #212  
Old 22nd August 2019, 13:29
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Okay, that looks pretty clear - no front and rear position lamps = no need to have headlights.

Now, if you can just point me to the paragraph that shows an exemption from front and rear position lamps during the day I'll concede that anyone running a daytime mot is complying with the relevant legislation.

Maybe my eyes aren't what they used to be, but the only exemption from any position lamp I could find was this

Type of lamp or reflector - Front position lamp

Exceptions - A solo motor bicycle fitted with a headlamp.


So, you can run a bike without a front position lamp so long as it has a headlight...

There are, however, no exemptions from having at least one rear position lamp and matched pairs front and rear on a four wheeler.

Someone show me the exemption from the mandatory position lamps during daylight hours and I'll be happy that everything's hunky dory.
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  #213  
Old 22nd August 2019, 21:19
Dpaz Dpaz is offline
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No lamp need to be fitted to a vehicle with no front or rear position lamp.
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  #214  
Old 23rd August 2019, 07:21
Colin HD Colin HD is offline
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Oh well, guess I'm currently a Law Breaker and will have to fit a couple of lights. Not the end of the world!!
Will probably make them removable, because photos would look better without them.

Do love these forums where we tend to focus on some things and peoples cars, but disregard others!

Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations - Schedule 7
Indicators - minimum height above the ground - 350mm



Construction & Use Regs
Talks about: Seat Belt anchorage points being designed to hold securely...




I'm not knocking other peoples work, guess it comes down to Risk Assessment.
Just find it interesting how we focus on one thing but not others!!
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  #215  
Old 23rd August 2019, 08:27
Phaeton Phaeton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin HD View Post
Oh well, guess I'm currently a Law Breaker
Be that as it may, you have a fantastic unique vehicle, which will turn heads & give enjoyment to people.

Sorry I asked the question about the arches which seems to have opened the can of worms, it wasn't specifically aimed at your car, it was just a general observation after seeing a couple of US Coupe's on the M1 after Stoneleigh.
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  #216  
Old 23rd August 2019, 18:01
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Sorry for kicking the backside out of that debate, trouble is, when I was a plod I really liked laws that were clear - If person A does this to person B then person A is guilty of this offence. Simple.

With there being a clause in the lighting regs headlight section that says you don't need any lamps at all between dawn and dusk if you don't have front and rear position lamps fitted, I would expect to see a similar clause in the position lamps section and it just isn't there.

So, I guess it's down to interpretation of the headlight clause that the 'no lamps needed if you don't have position lamps fitted' includes the position lamps themselves. I just wish the reg's weren't so ambiguous.
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  #217  
Old 23rd August 2019, 19:33
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Just to add a little.

In years passed I rode pre65 trials motorcycles which had to be "road legal" to compete.
We never fitted lights but had to have a rear reflector fitted.

I regularly road my bike on the road so for safety reasons I fitted a rear brake light.
The next MOT the bike failed because technically as I had a rear light, I had to also have a front light !!!
So to get an MOT I had to tape over the rear brake light. After the MOT pass I removed the tape and continued to ride the bike!!!




By the way are hand signals still legal as there are no longer in the "highway code".
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  #218  
Old 24th August 2019, 07:21
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At first, I wondered how my car had been dragged into this debate?
( As I've been supporting/encouraging this build from the start. )

But then I finally noticed who started this recent debate about whether it is legal...

Phaeton, who has a record of posting, debating and reacting like a forum Troll.

Anyway, whilst I'm here, I did check/measure my front indicators yesterday…

It seems that they are indeed too low for the lighting regulations, but 100% OK for MOT testing.
( I already have three MOT passes under my belt to confirm this. )

I've even been pulled over by the Police, who were happy to chat about my car with no concerns.

Personally, I would only worry about a car driving around with no lights if it was dark.

Peace and love, Paul.
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  #219  
Old 24th August 2019, 08:43
Colin HD Colin HD is offline
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Sorry Paul, was not my intention to bring you into this debate and appreciate your support of my build.

Was just trying to show that we/people tend to focus on what we see as outside of the 'normal' and automatically believe that it cannot be legal!

The indicators on your car look right and in the 'normal' position, so nobody would question their legality.

The Laws and Regs are not as smart as they think they are, loopholes & ambiguities do exist, sorry Mr Towed its not all Black & White!

Again it comes down to personal Risk Assessment (RA) as to how we apply them to our builds.

NO or out of position lights is unlikely to kill anybody and I have no intention of driving it after bedtime!!
So my RA is to MY wallet as a worst-case.

Healthy debate is good, we are not discussing stuff that is Top Secret!
The Rules/Regs/Laws are in the Public Domain.

Sorry all Mad About Members I have not intended to offend anybody, I honestly thought that the 'daytime' lights was a known thing.

Agreed the mudguards/open wheel, is totally down to interpretation
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  #220  
Old 24th August 2019, 10:53
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redratbike redratbike is offline
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The loophole is guys and girls that the mot requirements and the legal requirements don’t match

It’s as simple as that ..
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