Feedback Please .....new Body Available Soon / 50's Sports - Page 2

PaulC · #21 25th July 2010, 23:40

This seems to be coming along nicely, congratulations. That finished (green) car is a nice advert for the kit. Might I offer my own thoughts? Please feel free to tell me if/why I'm wrong.

From the bonnet intake aft I like it a lot and wouldn't change a thing. The rear is beautiful and I think the hump behind the driver is absolutely spot on. That alone sells it to me.

The front though, have you considered anything slightly different? At the moment it reminds me of those 60's attempts at amphibious cars or an Alpine and doesn't quite match the rest of the car. I suppose the best way to describe it would be if I first saw the car from behind I'd think "Wow!", as I walked up the side "Mmmmm, nice" but upon reaching the front "Errrrr....." where I'd stop and try to work out what troubled me. Actually I just had another look at the pictures and I've got it. Everything else is rounded or curved, the wings, arches, headlamps, that rear end, the hump and the bonnet intake whereas the front grille is square. If I had one I'd seriously consider modifying it to something like this:

I see you've gone from a Herald to a Spitfire chassis so assume a GT6 would fit the bill too? A car I've had at the back of my mind for some time is the Type 48 http://www.corsaspyder.com/Brief_history.html which is also Spitfire/GT6 based. Hmmmm. If I sold my TVR I could have one of those, one of yours and a Porsche Spyder replica!

Have you roughed out any prices for other build stages? £750 for the shell I see but I think you mentioned here or one your site the possibility of a completed car.

Lastly and please don't take this the wrong way as I suspect your choice might have been personal, perhaps based upon the name of a friend or relative but the name? Sammio conjures up two images for me. The first is of the Pilgrim Sumo, a budget Cobra kit, and the second of a Korean hatchback of some description. I think something 'classic' would top it off nicely.

lancelot link · #22 26th July 2010, 20:15

Paul ,
Thank you for your input.....I know what your saying about the front end...in some pics it looks a bit 'wrong' but in the flesh its not too bad at all.....I am intending on changing the front completely when I do the Scimitar based example later this year and the Maserati you showed is more along the lines of where I was going to go with that one....I really like the Lancia D24 front as well , 1953 ? ish , with the one shrouded headlight....looks really purposeful.
The Spitfire / GT6 idea was really a one off ...I haven't re-tooled the moulds or anything and wouldn't really want to do too many of those starting with my longer body....I would , if asked , but won't be pushing them....

I'm building a couple of turn-keys for customers right now...I am working to a budget of approx. £4900 for a drive away , painted , wire wheel example and about £4200-4500 for steel wheels, depending on sizes.
A rolling chassis with body mounted would be about £1250-1500 using a customers stripped out car and would include fuel tank and steering column mounts etc....I know this is cheap and probably won't be able to keep prices this low for long but wanted to get a few units out there...

Sammio ? I like it.....my son is Samuel ( SAMMY ) O wen Janes...born about the time I started the project....it was originally pencilled in as a FRUGAL SPYDER , but I changed it......I felt that there was a relevance and FANGIO is a fairly significant name connected to 50's Motorsport , I felt it had a similar vibe.....

Not sure what to call the Scimitar based example yet though !

THANKS AGAIN FOR TAKING THE TIME TO COMMENT......

PaulC · #23 26th July 2010, 23:58

See? I just knew I'd put my foot in it with the name

I'm no expert so had to Google the D24, I reckon that sort of snout would be perfect. I still think it needs naming as something classic though I understand your not wanting to change it. If you make enough alterations to justify listing it as a different model perhaps you could ask around the forums for suggestions?

I went over the Le Mans track to see if there's any inspiration there but somehow I think there'd be even more trouble with Virage, Porsche and Mulsanne! Spyder's already out there on a few cars, Fangio sounds good but I wonder if there'll be copyright problems? Brooklands? What about taking a leaf out of Jaguar's book and calling it a D-Type? Making it clear it's not meant to be a Jaguar of course. I'm sure you could prove that it was (at least) your fourth model so therefore legitimately a 'D'

A nice picture of a 'D' Type.

What, realistically, would you say would be the maximum BHP that should be put into a Herald, Spitfire or Scimitar chassis? I ask because much as I like the look of the car I would really have to have enough to make progress and surprise some modern cars. I know it'll be light but would 200bhp* be too much? Subject to suspension, brake and other component upgrades of course.

*Not from the original engines I'm thinking. How about an Alfa Romeo V6 with those lovely chrome manifolds? That would have a nice bark.

Edit: If you're using a Scimitar chassis then how about naming it after another type of sword? Sabre, Rapier................lots of sword types listed here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_swords

Scimmy · #24 27th July 2010, 09:39

With the Lancia D24 in mind you're definitely on the right track! Though I'm not entirely sure if it should have a snout exactly like that. Looks a bit like it's vacuuming the road...

A bit more upright would be better I think.

200 bhp won't be a problem at all when using the Scimitar chassis. There are lots of owners who converted their Scimitars to a Rover or Chevy V8 for instance, some even with twin turbo's on them... (have a look at www.sporting-reliants.com for inspiration)

I've also been thinking about a name for the Scimbased special. I agree that a type of sword would fit very well. It's both true to its origins and has a nice sporty, somewhat agressive ring to it. Pity that "Rapier" and "Sabre" are being used or have been used for cars already. The Sabre actually was a sportscar produced by Reliant btw!

May I suggest "Spada" spyder or special? Still a sword and in my opinion it compliments the Italian look and feel of the car.

Gr.,
Scimmy

lancelot link · #25 27th July 2010, 19:18

THANKS FOR THE INPUT GUYS.....I'm following this thread with great interest , It's important to hear other peoples take on your ideas , its easy to get blinkered by your own interpretations sometimes...

Heres the D24 that inspires me ....

They are quite long behind the rear wheels which is important as the Scimitar has quite a bit of overhang in this area ...fuel tank location etc..

I quite like the droopy nose , it takes it away from looking a bit Cobra'ish from the front.....There are loads of Google images of this one to look at...

I'm currently moulding a solid tonneau for one of the Sammio's and will probably modify that for the larger version , I really like the single screen idea for my Scim. based on as well.....

Keep it coming guys !!

PaulC · #26 27th July 2010, 21:16

Thanks Scimmy, I've never really paid a great deal of attention to Scimitars but being newer than Spitfires and Heralds it would make sense for them to be more tunable. A V8? Now you're talking! Lots of TVR's being broken, a 5-litre might just do the job and I know some people capable of getting the best out of them. Do abandoned projects appear very often? I assume the Scimitar chassis required some serious fettling to take a V8?

Lancelot. In my eyes that picture you posted (above) of the D24 isn't as flattering as the head on shot I found and I see Scimmy's point. Reminds me of a basking shark

Single screen? Solid tonneau. All sound interesting. How about throwing in some side exit exhausts?

As for names I never knew that a Spada was a sword. If you go 'foreign' that would work. Unfortunately not many british swords seem to have funky names that haven't already been used. "Hello darlin. Fancy coming for a spin in me Dirk/Spadroon/Claymore?" doesn't exactly cut a dash, does it?

Other weapons? Spear? Javelin? Trident?

Aircraft? Typhoon? Meteor? Kestrel? Tempest? Mohawk? Vulcan? Hmmmmmm, Vulcan. I like that.

I'm not a fan of the huuuge rear overhang on that Lancia, would the Scimitar have to have an arse that big?

PS. How difficult to make a shell fit a Chimaera?

Scimmy · #27 29th July 2010, 16:01

Paul, I thought there actually was a Scimitar with a TVR conversion. Not entirely sure though... There's not that much to be dealt with to fit a V8 to the Scim chassis as far as I know. It's the body that needs most of the work. So, in this case there shouldn't be any problem. Over here in the Netherlands there aren't many Scims around, so no abandoned projects here... But in the UK I can imagine there must be quite a few. Keep in mind though that the chassis Lancelot is using comes from an early Se5(a?) which differs from the later Se6 (a&b) models. Have a look at www.scimitarweb.co.uk

Basking shark you say... Hm. I see a D-type fin... We could be on to something here

Lancelot, I do like the single screen and especially the solid tonneau! Gives the car just the right 50's Le Mans feeling. Will you be going for the larger rounded screen in the picture or the small single one on the other D24 (with the number 76 on it) on the net? They both look good.

I see your "droopy nose" point btw. We really don't want it to look like a Cobra, definitely don't want that...

PaulC · #28 30th July 2010, 01:10

Been giving it some thought since my last post. The Chimaera comment was a bit of a throwaway line but it might be worth a punt.

Take a Chimaera with damaged bodywork, buy it cheap, cut off and throw away the broken bits, remove and sell the unbroken bits that you won't be needing such as roof, doors, windscreen and windows, bonnet, boot etc, graft a Vulcan (I'm calling the next model that now whether or not anyone else does

) body tub on top and off you go.

Imagine. A 50's car with a 5.0 litre V8 putting out around 300bhp. That'll surprise a few people

lancelot link · #29 30th July 2010, 07:26

PAULC ,
When you checkout the wheelbase and track measurements of your TVR , it is actually closer to the SAMMIO , the Chim. is about 90'' wheelbase , my car is 91'' , track on a Herald is approx. 50'' ( front and rear varies slightly ) and the TVR track is about 57''

Basically a SAMMIO body with a widening strip down the centre would fit your dimensions !

The Maserati's , ferrari's etc that were campaigned during the 50's were all around the 90-95'' marks approx. The Lancia was 94.5''...I'm using a SE5 Scimitar which is 99''......but then I'm not looking to replicate anything just draw inspiration from , so the extra 4.5'' doesn't concern me and is far outweighed by the excellent Scimitar base...The later , more readily available , SE6 models are 104'' long , this I feel is just a bit too much....My initial thoughts with the 'plug' body are to use the existing Scimitar floor , if possible and the original bulkhead cut down and moved back into position....I can then graft the quarterized SAMMIO bits in place creating quite a strong shell to work with ....front end will be made up as I go along.
If the project ever progresses from a one off ( time , interest and cashflow being the factors here ! ) I would probably mould it as a complete shell with integral floor and bulkhead to be a direct replacement for the Scimitar shell ( hence my use of their floor , they spent hours designing !!) and steel bracing bonded into the bulkhead to accept the stock Scimitar master cylinders , pedal arrangement etc. as well as being able to relocate the column as well....Keeping my Hot Rod hat on for a minute or two , this leaves a rolling chassis/bodyshell configuration that can accept any engine from stock or even a 1600 Cortina right through to an American V8 .....I'm thinking straight 6 Jag at the moment , but it is very early days...Like my SAMMIO , although they are being offered with a similar building method , no two cars need to be the same...

I am building 2 turnkey Sammio's at present ( I'll post some pics later ) but do hope to pull another Sammio body out and strip my SE5 within the next 3-4 weeks to make a start.....

I'll probably start a seperate thread when I do.....

Gary

PaulC · #30 30th July 2010, 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by lancelot link

When you check out the wheelbase and track measurements of your TVR , it is actually closer to the SAMMIO , the Chim. is about 90'' wheelbase , my car is 91'' , track on a Herald is approx. 50'' ( front and rear varies slightly ) and the TVR track is about 57''

Basically a SAMMIO body with a widening strip down the centre would fit your dimensions

Now that is interesting.

How strong a body would you get if you grafted a Sammio onto a modified Chimaera? I'm just concerned that we'd be looking at something akin to a cut and shut that'll burst apart in an impact. I've had one crash in a TVR and it held up well though I feel I've used up all my luck credits

From my very limited experience of building cars I would hope this would be an easy(ish) one needing only the basics reconnecting. No electric windows, no wipers etc. Might even be able to retain some creature comforts like the heating for winter driving. The boot? The Sammio doesn't have one, the Chimaera does. Couldn't gain access from behind the seats because in a Chimaera that's where the fuel tank lives. The hump/fin would be in the way of a bootlid though. Hmmm. Lots to think about.

Gary, rereading the thread I saw your comments about a body swop rather than IVA which is good news. What exactly does that involve?

Finally (for now). If you cut and widened a Sammio that would make it a Vulcan, right?

Edit. Any idea how much the green one sold for?

lancelot link · #31 30th July 2010, 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulC

Now that is interesting.

How strong a body would you get if you grafted a Sammio onto a modified Chimaera? I'm just concerned that we'd be looking at something akin to a cut and shut that'll burst apart in an impact. I've had one crash in a TVR and it held up well though I feel I've used up all my luck credits

From my very limited experience of building cars I would hope this would be an easy(ish) one ......The boot? The Sammio doesn't have one, the Chimaera does. Couldn't gain access from behind the seats because in a Chimaera that's where the fuel tank lives. The hump/fin would be in the way of a bootlid though. Hmmm. Lots to think about.

Gary, rereading the thread I saw your comments about a body swop rather than IVA which is good news. What exactly does that involve?

Finally (for now). If you cut and widened a Sammio that would make it a Vulcan, right?

Edit. Any idea how much the green one sold for?

Paul.....without seeing a TVR Chassis and taking measurements etc. it would be very difficult to say just what would need doing to mate an alternative body onto it.....Its only fibreglass and modified fibreglass at that , so you just modify again to fit !! I would need to see things like radiator location , bulkhead positioning etc. When I did the Spitfire , the cockpit had to be moved to put it in the right position on the shorter chassis ...gearstick positioning isn't very flexible for instance...If you look at the Spit. version , I cut a boot into that one...the lack of headrest helped but our old friend the Lancia D24 has a headrest and bootlid , so its feasible...

For a car to qualify as a re-bodied conversion , it must have a replacement body AND subframe structure that can be unbolted and removed from the chassis , leaving a stock chassis that its original body would refit to....you are allowed minor extra body mounts as long as they wouldn't interfere with replacing with the stock body and you are allowed to drill extra holes....Thats why my framework is bolted to the chassis then clad with the body and bonded in place..if you unbolt my body including the original bulkhead section , a stock Herald shell would go back on without modification....There are a few exceptions , but thats basically the ground rules...The rebodied car then gains the new body name as the Make as it can no longer retain the TRIUMPH name due to no longer resembling a Triumph product , it keeps the original registration though and , if applicable , remains tax exempt...

The green example sold for £5500......

lancelot link · #32 30th July 2010, 17:29

I took some pictures of the SAMMIO thats getting most of my attention right now , today , just ''in progress'' pics for your interest......

The first pic shows a body mod I'm doing on this one....Pattrice , the customer , wanted 15'' wire wheels fitted...I have secured some MGC wheels and have adaptors being made at present to fit them. The larger wheel meant the body was better suited to being mounted slightly higher than standard , the Herald side rails are normally covered by the body tub. In order to rectify this the car is getting deeper cill panels rolled under to look like a bellypan and I have cut the rear panel and lowered it 40mm also....I actually like the deeper rear panel on this one and its a perfect example of how flexible a build can be...

This pic shows my patterning for the solid tonneau cover ....a steel tube has been fitted between dash and seat bulkhead that can be removed , I have cut and shaped a piece of hardboard for the tonneau and a mould will be taken from this ,when moulded in fibreglass a flat tonneau will fit the lines of the car perfectly, the edge will have a nice rolled radius as well......I have fitted a steel hoop to the side of the car as part of the cockpit build and this will be used to secure the tonneau as well as the central tube....it will be easily removable..Solid tonneau's will be available as of next week !! Price to follow...

Final pic for now shows my hardboard pattern for the rear inner arches...the original car didn't have these but I have changed my inner structure design to make fitting these easier...They will eventually be glassed to the shell but for now will bolt on and off for ease of access....

THANKS FOR LOOKING...

Gary

PaulC · #33 30th July 2010, 19:50

Gary, thanks for putting so much time into this. Those pictures are interesting too. The TVRs already have inner wings of course so that's a saving. I like the way you just say "Cut here....extend there.....roll the edge...". Airfix kits are about my limit.

The Chimaera (and perhaps Griffith, dimensions permitting) would fit the bill then, the bodies are held on to the chassis by about twelve bolts. Body off chassis restorations are old hat with the Griffiths and Chimaeras on which the frame powdercoating was said to be (technical term) crap and because of this jobs like replacing frilly outriggers are common. I would imagine the best way would be to cut off the outer wings, cut the inner bits and bulkheads to shape and bond your tub on top. That about it? (If I write it quickly it doesn't sound hard

) The only way to know would be to start on one I suppose.

One area that might be a problem is the depth of the 'boot' area. I see from the pictures of the one you're working on that there's not a lot between the top deck and the underside of the car. The fuel tank in a Chimaera sits upright in the boot, the other side of the bulkhead from the parcel shelf. I may need to befriend a Chimaera owner and have him pay you a visit so that we can put a body alongside a car and see what might work straight off and what might need fettling.

I've started looking for damaged cars and have a few contacts I can call. If we go much further we'll need to start 'proper' talking to each other. I might come for a spin down to Poole!

lancelot link · #34 31st July 2010, 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulC

I would imagine the best way would be to cut off the outer wings, cut the inner bits and bulkheads to shape and bond your tub on top. That about it? (If I write it quickly it doesn't sound hard

) The only way to know would be to start on one I suppose.

One area that might be a problem is the depth of the 'boot' area. I see from the pictures of the one you're working on that there's not a lot between the top deck and the underside of the car. The fuel tank in a Chimaera sits upright in the boot, the other side of the bulkhead from the parcel shelf.

I've started looking for damaged cars and have a few contacts I can call. If we go much further we'll need to start 'proper' talking to each other. I might come for a spin down to Poole!

Paul,
The method you are describing above is kinda how the Banham range are done.... My only reservation with the Banham range is they are bonded to an inner structure of a monocoque shell , bodies are on for good , I do wonder how this will affect future maintainence issues with those cars...I'd like to think my SAMMIO's will be around long enough to require full restoration one day !!.......My Sammio can have its body removed , if necessary for major work and all components are accessible when it's in place for general maintainence...If using the stock floor etc. from the TVR , in theory the new body can be removed in the same way and accessibility to components won't be compromised....The boot thing could be an issue...it will need looking at , it may be a case of 'tweaking' something...theres always a solution ! I got a VW Beetle engine into the boot of a 1932 Roadster a few years back.....was told it couldn't be done with a stock Beetle lump without compromising the cars looks.........theres always a way !! ( It's actually a whole Beetle with one of my bolt on extender kits fitted under there ! )

You can call me anytime and you are welcome to visit my humble setup anytime as well....I have a customer coming down to see me from Yorkshire on Monday and I'm really pleased he is taking the time to do that...it saves a lot of aggro later on if things go unmentioned or assumed by either party..

I got the rear body mounts in place today on the grey car above and made the inner arches from 6mm ply and fitted them......I tweaked my shape slightly to allow more spring clearance...

I'll put up some more pictures of that car this week as I am going to start mounting the front around abouts mid-week as well as moulding/making a solid tonneau etc....

P.S. I'm still thinking about creating some rear wheel spats , like the mock up ones right at the beginning of this thread......whats the general concensus on those panels ...Porsche favoured something similar and Lotus liked their fared in wheels as well as DMW Cars....I like them , personally , just wondered aloud really !! ?

Thank you

PaulC · #35 31st July 2010, 19:09

I didn't actually build the Banham. Bought it from some loon who had intended to turn it into an electric car (bear in mind this was about nine or ten years ago). He'd spent ridiculous amounts of money paying back-street bodgers to build it for him before passing to someone with a clue then running out of money. I bought it for a fraction of his expenditure and just about everyone I ever spoke to about Banhams said "Nice ideas, shame about the quality". Stories abound of people having to cut doors in half and rebuilding them.

Spats? Hmmmmmmm, not sure. In my mind's eye I'm hoping for something similar to the D24 with wire wheels and it would be a shame to hide them behind spats. On the other hand if I have to settle for slots (I'm wondering about hub fittings) they might look ok. How difficult would it be to offer them as an option? They'd need to be quick releasing anyway, camlocks or Dzus fasteners perhaps, for wheel changes. Let me search for pictures of a few cars with them and ponder a bit more.

Might take you up on that visit. I work a week on/off roster so am often around midweek. Would call first of course.

I sent you a PM last week with a link to a renovated Spitfire chassis on eBay, did you get it? There are a couple of other interesting projects there at the moment too. A Pilgrim Hawthorn of any interest to you? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

lancelot link · #36 1st August 2010, 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulC

"Nice ideas, shame about the quality". Stories abound of people having to cut doors in half and rebuilding them.

Spats? Hmmmmmmm, not sure. In my mind's eye I'm hoping for something similar to the D24 with wire wheels and it would be a shame to hide them behind spats..... How difficult would it be to offer them as an option? They'd need to be quick releasing anyway, camlocks or Dzus fasteners perhaps, for wheel changes. Let me search for pictures of a few cars with them and ponder a bit more.

Might take you up on that visit. I work a week on/off roster so am often around midweek. Would call first of course.

Paul,
I think with the Banhams ( THE 130 SPYDER ) the quality would have been more acceptable if the price was a bit more quality related...There hadn't been too much modification work done to the original M & W body they started with , the stretch was pretty straight forward and M & W bodies aren't too bad in their stock state...From memory the bodies were about £2000 approx 10-15 years ago .....also as the moulds became tired , the later ones were showing signs of that....

My bodies need work , they aren't ''polish the gel and use'' , they will need filler work to straighten out and blend the build process scars etc....They are only £750 though.....I am realistic about the level of car I'm trying to offer.....I feel that their is probably more people around nowadays who are in a position to put time into a build rather than money...Their are other high dollar options available ( Porsche Spyders , Kougar Monza's etc.. ) and if someone wants a high dollar SAMMIO , thats possible as well. I can happily take the car to any level required and have excellent paint and body guys in my network as well as decent trimmers etc.....but a home builder can genuinely put a nice example of one of these on the road for £2000 ......FRUGAL FUN is a phrase I keep telling myself and thats what first motivated me with this project and is the same motivation for the Scimitar based one as well.....

The wheelspat thing is only ever going to be an option , they will always be removeable and , as you say , suited to non-wire wheel option a bit better , probably...

lancelot link · #37 4th August 2010, 19:09

As previously mentioned above .....The solid tonneaus are now available , moulded in fibreglass and shaped to fit perfectly....They are £45 each ....for a limited time I can offer them free to anyone who orders a body package or part build....They are great for creating that 50's race car look......... single screens that can be fitted as a direct replacement for the full width screen are on my 'next' list. It would be kinda cool if you could run a full width , two seat option but with a couple of spanners/screwdrivers , you could convert it to a single seat , single screen style for the race look on those occasions you are driving on your own !!

I have lots of ideas with time and finances permitting !!

.THANK YOU

PaulC · #38 6th August 2010, 00:18

All sounds good, I'd thought of the single screen thing and was wondering about a quick(ish) change to accomodate a passenger.

Just have to see about selling my current car to finance the project now.

lancelot link · #39 8th August 2010, 13:06

this is cool.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxCEj5v3TG8&feature=fvst

LIKING THE TWO SINGLE SCREENS IDEA....easier and cheaper than the Porsche one I use now !

PaulC · #40 8th August 2010, 16:32

I'd be more than happy driving a replica of that.