Are you madabout kit cars      
 "We've Got Kit Cars Covered" Information about Madabout-Kitcars.com Contact Madabout-Kitcars.com         Home of UK kit cars - madabout-kitcars.com Various kit car write ups All the latest kit car news Kit car related and general discussion

Search
Manufacturers
Kit Cars
Kit Car Data sheets
Picture Gallery
SVA Knowledgebase
Clubs & Communities
Build cost estimator
Kit cars for sale
Knowledge Base 
KitcarUSA.com
Classic-Kitcars.com
 

Go Back   Madabout Kitcars Forum > Mad Build Area > Tribute Automotive Builds

Tribute Automotive Builds Discuss your Tribute kit build

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 24th June 2017, 21:19
smash smash is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 675
smash is on a distinguished road
Default

Increased price will almost definitely mean VAT registration (I expect they're treading very carefully as it is) and then prices really will increase. Which may in turn lead to increased expectations with respect to quality (or run the risk of someone taking a mould and producing something to rival DNA - Tribute would be powerless to do anything as it's not their intellectual property )
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 24th June 2017, 21:56
lancelot link's Avatar
lancelot link lancelot link is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: POOLE , DORSET
Posts: 2,196
lancelot link is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smash View Post
Tribute would be powerless to do anything as it's not their intellectual property )
Who's IPR is it then ? Its not a replica of a 250 SWB ..Its far enough away from an original to not be a conflict in my opinion ..and the concept of the ''60's Coupe'' fitting a Z3 in the way it does is definitely a Tribute achievement ..

I'm no expert on IPR ..I always play with original design , so feel safe that I am ok ..but I have been led to believe a 10% or more change can even make your own design compromised ..a Tribute 250 SWB is definitely more than 10% away from a Ferrari 250 SWB ....
If its the way the kit fits , then my internal frame method of fitting a S*mmio to a Triumph chassis should have some degree of protection ..maybe ?

Not a confrontational question ...Im just intrigued into how safe our hard work really is in the big scheme of things ...
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 24th June 2017, 22:35
Tribute Automotive's Avatar
Tribute Automotive Tribute Automotive is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,622
Tribute Automotive is on a distinguished road
Default

Another holiday ruined....

I have already legally supressed an overseas companies attempt to copy a Tribute product. This will be my only public post on this subject, all other communications will be directly to those concerned via legal channels.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 24th June 2017, 22:48
smash smash is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 675
smash is on a distinguished road
Default

Every cobra replica in the UK allegedly original started from a splash of the Arntz cobra. Carroll Shelby didn't get very far...

I am intrigued by your VAT status.

Last edited by smash; 24th June 2017 at 22:56..
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 25th June 2017, 00:18
Lucky@LeMans Lucky@LeMans is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,664
Lucky@LeMans is on a distinguished road
Default

Is this the start of the annual bun fight ???

Can someone put all the toys back in the pram ?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 25th June 2017, 00:27
Lucky@LeMans Lucky@LeMans is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,664
Lucky@LeMans is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smash View Post
I guess I'm just surprised because Bobs car went for 20 and I felt the body on that was far superior. Maybe it's the whole resale red thing
There is an expectation for a Ferrari to be red. Its largely the same with Cobra replica's, they need to be blue and maybe with twin white stripes from front to back.
Paint colour and wheel choice are the two big factors all else being equal when it comes to resale.

Last edited by Lucky@LeMans; 25th June 2017 at 00:31..
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 25th June 2017, 05:45
DaveP DaveP is offline
Senior Member
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Reading, Berkshire
Posts: 664
DaveP is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky@LeMans View Post
Is this the start of the annual bun fight ???

Can someone put all the toys back in the pram ?
Annual ? Seems to be at every full moon these days
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 25th June 2017, 08:41
smash smash is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 675
smash is on a distinguished road
Default

Gary - this all from my digging and prior knowledge so that's my caveat!

The 10% rule is a myth (according to UK copyright society). This is about derivative copyright law. The Kali and the Coupe are both derived works from Ferrari. The question is can a derived work have its own copyright? The answer is yes IF it's seen to be substantially different. It's a civil not criminal matter. I'd expect the Kali to be protected but the coupe is questionable - present a photo of a finished car (the No 7 car for example) and then a photo of the original for comparison. Man on Clapham omnibus would think they are the same IMO. I'd expect copyright would likely remain with originators Ferrari and so it would be their call whether they pursued either Tribute or a copy of Tribute. That's the gamble - does the derived work have its own copyright, is it substantially different? You're only going to find that out taking civil action all the way and then the question is does either party have the appetite or financial resource to do that. You can always try a cease and desist letter first as a cheap option and the recipient may bottle it but ultimately it's down to civil action. I guess the tactic for the defendant would be not that they hadn't copied the copy, but that the copy doesn't have any protection in the first place

Last edited by smash; 25th June 2017 at 09:00..
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 25th June 2017, 10:13
Lucky@LeMans Lucky@LeMans is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,664
Lucky@LeMans is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smash View Post
Gary - this all from my digging and prior knowledge so that's my caveat!

The 10% rule is a myth (according to UK copyright society). This is about derivative copyright law. The Kali and the Coupe are both derived works from Ferrari. The question is can a derived work have its own copyright? The answer is yes IF it's seen to be substantially different. It's a civil not criminal matter. I'd expect the Kali to be protected but the coupe is questionable - present a photo of a finished car (the No 7 car for example) and then a photo of the original for comparison. Man on Clapham omnibus would think they are the same IMO. I'd expect copyright would likely remain with originators Ferrari and so it would be their call whether they pursued either Tribute or a copy of Tribute. That's the gamble - does the derived work have its own copyright, is it substantially different? You're only going to find that out taking civil action all the way and then the question is does either party have the appetite or financial resource to do that. You can always try a cease and desist letter first as a cheap option and the recipient may bottle it but ultimately it's down to civil action. I guess the tactic for the defendant would be not that they hadn't copied the copy, but that the copy doesn't have any protection in the first place
I'm not sure of the details but all the Cobra's that are available or have been over the past 25 years just goes to show there isn't a problem. Yes, Shelby / AC did try to stop them through the courts but failed. If I recall the only thing the replica's weren't allowed to do was use the word " Cobra " by name in advertising material.
I would think Chris has nothing to worry about with his " inspired by " cars over a Z3 base.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 25th June 2017, 10:59
Jaguartvr's Avatar
Jaguartvr Jaguartvr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Egham, Surrey
Posts: 1,684
Jaguartvr is on a distinguished road
Default

I think Jeff is only intending to take a mould so he can make a lighter front end in a similar way that he did to the small bonnet.
Trouble with forums is that things can so easily be taken in the wrong context.

One of the things I like about my Tribute is the fact that it is laid up heavily, to me this would equate to strength but I can see why Jeff made the small bonnet lighter and think that as it is an unstressed part it is a good idea.

When Chris started the 250's he was in uncharted territory, as kits have been finished problems have shown up and with the help of people posting the problems, they have been sorted or work arounds formulated. In an ideal world as soon as a problem is sorted a new mould should be made but obviously this would be far too expensive and just not practical. It is important I feel to keep the kits to an affordable price.

I have enjoyed every moment of my build, all problems were relatively small and when you find a work around very satisfying.
The idea of building a kit on a rusty old Herald or Spitfire just doesn't appeal to me, I've spent too many years working on rusty old cars. The idea of building a kit from scratch is appealing but I would probably get a custodial sentence when dealing with some jobsworth during the IVA examination. Rebodying a Z3 or MX5 just makes so much sense.
I would love to do another with the experience learnt on this one I feel it would be a quick and superior build.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 25th June 2017, 11:46
Tribute Automotive's Avatar
Tribute Automotive Tribute Automotive is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,622
Tribute Automotive is on a distinguished road
Default

I was saving the bad news on VAT registration until the beginning of the new financial year for Tribute (July). It may be flat rate 8% to start, my accountant is doing his sums.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 25th June 2017, 13:28
trev dunn trev dunn is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 56
trev dunn is on a distinguished road
Default

Sorry I'm a bit late to this thread but had a bad couple of bad days. It's good to see that our cars are being appreciated and are fetching decent money. When you factor in the time spent putting them together then improving and detailing them,if you were paying trade rates the values being asked would need to be at least current asking prices, but hey it's our hobby and that's why we do it, I don't think mine will ever be finished (don't let the wife hear that) I was at the Tatton park show a couple of weeks ago, when I got back to my car a guy was taking pics of my car and had left his number on the windscreen, he seemed genuine and offered me 22k for it. I had no intention of selling it (need something to take my mind off my current health issues, which seem to be going well at the moment) I showed him the mag feature of Nubodies cars and gave him Tributes details, so maybe he was interested in one of the current cars up for sale. Remember we have our car for pleasure and its a good hobby too.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 25th June 2017, 17:37
Lucky@LeMans Lucky@LeMans is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,664
Lucky@LeMans is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribute Automotive View Post
I was saving the bad news on VAT registration until the beginning of the new financial year for Tribute (July). It may be flat rate 8% to start, my accountant is doing his sums.
So that will be nearly 500 on the 250 SWB and that's on top of the 1000 rise just over a year ago. I thought VAT was 20% at the moment, which would be close on 1000.
If the price has to rise for any reason your product is getting expensive for what is a set of fibre glass panels at the end of the day.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 25th June 2017, 21:20
lancelot link's Avatar
lancelot link lancelot link is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: POOLE , DORSET
Posts: 2,196
lancelot link is on a distinguished road
Default

There are no winners on here when it comes to VAT.

Obviously , the price goes up .... not ideal for buyer or seller.
A raised price on the product in no way means Tribute are profiting from that ....potentially the opposite in reality ...

For Tribute , it also means a load of extra paperwork and aggro ...the thankless and unpaid task of collecting revenue for HMRC is very annoying . I , thankfully , get nowhere near it nowadays , but a few years back , when I registered late and got fined for that as well as having to settle a VAT bill that I hadn't charged the customers for ..it nearly finished me .... HMRC said , go back to each customer and ask for the VAT !!
It was 15% then and my average sale was about 300 ...so at a new figure of 345 , I made myself uncompetitive in a market of sellers who were non VAT registered ..

I seem to remember a system where I could charge 5% at the time on a sale , something to do with profit rather than turnover or something ...I may remember that wrong ...but I'm guessing that old 5% deal is the 8% Chris is referring to ...
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 26th June 2017, 07:24
Jaguartvr's Avatar
Jaguartvr Jaguartvr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Egham, Surrey
Posts: 1,684
Jaguartvr is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by trev dunn View Post
Sorry I'm a bit late to this thread but had a bad couple of bad days. It's good to see that our cars are being appreciated and are fetching decent money. When you factor in the time spent putting them together then improving and detailing them,if you were paying trade rates the values being asked would need to be at least current asking prices, but hey it's our hobby and that's why we do it, I don't think mine will ever be finished (don't let the wife hear that) I was at the Tatton park show a couple of weeks ago, when I got back to my car a guy was taking pics of my car and had left his number on the windscreen, he seemed genuine and offered me 22k for it. I had no intention of selling it (need something to take my mind off my current health issues, which seem to be going well at the moment) I showed him the mag feature of Nubodies cars and gave him Tributes details, so maybe he was interested in one of the current cars up for sale. Remember we have our car for pleasure and its a good hobby too.

If you still have the details it might be worth passing them onto Smash as he is looking to sell.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 26th June 2017, 16:09
Barber's Avatar
Barber Barber is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Camberley
Posts: 972
Barber is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot link View Post
There are no winners on here when it comes to VAT.

Obviously , the price goes up .... not ideal for buyer or seller.
A raised price on the product in no way means Tribute are profiting from that ....potentially the opposite in reality ...

For Tribute , it also means a load of extra paperwork and aggro ...the thankless and unpaid task of collecting revenue for HMRC is very annoying . I , thankfully , get nowhere near it nowadays , but a few years back , when I registered late and got fined for that as well as having to settle a VAT bill that I hadn't charged the customers for ..it nearly finished me .... HMRC said , go back to each customer and ask for the VAT !!
It was 15% then and my average sale was about 300 ...so at a new figure of 345 , I made myself uncompetitive in a market of sellers who were non VAT registered ..

I seem to remember a system where I could charge 5% at the time on a sale , something to do with profit rather than turnover or something ...I may remember that wrong ...but I'm guessing that old 5% deal is the 8% Chris is referring to ...
There are various simplified schemas for different business sectors. The "net" basis described above pretty much covers it.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 27th June 2017, 18:39
trev dunn trev dunn is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 56
trev dunn is on a distinguished road
Default

Sorry his number was on a piece of paper which I put in a bin along with my accumulated rubbish from the day he said he was from Manchester I just gave him the info and told him about this web site he seemed happy with that. Trev
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 27th June 2017, 21:06
landmannnn landmannnn is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Coventry and the Limousin
Posts: 549
landmannnn is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot link View Post
There are no winners on here when it comes to VAT.

Obviously , the price goes up .... not ideal for buyer or seller.
A raised price on the product in no way means Tribute are profiting from that ....potentially the opposite in reality ...

For Tribute , it also means a load of extra paperwork and aggro ...the thankless and unpaid task of collecting revenue for HMRC is very annoying . I , thankfully , get nowhere near it nowadays , but a few years back , when I registered late and got fined for that as well as having to settle a VAT bill that I hadn't charged the customers for ..it nearly finished me .... HMRC said , go back to each customer and ask for the VAT !!
It was 15% then and my average sale was about 300 ...so at a new figure of 345 , I made myself uncompetitive in a market of sellers who were non VAT registered ..

I seem to remember a system where I could charge 5% at the time on a sale , something to do with profit rather than turnover or something ...I may remember that wrong ...but I'm guessing that old 5% deal is the 8% Chris is referring to ...
Yep, the flat rate scheme where you can't reclaim vat on purchases is the one you are thinking of.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 27th June 2017, 22:29
lancelot link's Avatar
lancelot link lancelot link is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: POOLE , DORSET
Posts: 2,196
lancelot link is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by landmannnn View Post
Yep, the flat rate scheme where you can't reclaim vat on purchases is the one you are thinking of.
Aaah , yes that makes sense because at the time my main expenditures as a cherished number seller were MOT fees , Govt Transfer fees and car taxation fees ....all VAT exempt from memory , so nothing to claim back ...I am guessing my accountant took the view the VAT I paid on a bit of fuel and some sundry items was negligible and a 5% increase would keep me relatively competitive .....

In my opinion , if thats the case , Chris would benefit from full VAT registration , as his biggest expense will be fibreglass materials which are very expensive , therefore reclaiming some of that VAT against sales VAT charged out can only be a positive thing for him and go someway towards his increased Accountants bills , time spent processing the paperwork etc....

Just my opinion ..... no one wants to see a price increase under any circumstances and 20% is an 'ouch' but it's the downside of a kit that has proved to be very popular and a great success ...... and if these cars are going to regularly start to sell for the figures being bandied about in recent weeks ...everyone is still doing ok .....not many '' hobby build'' cars will even return expenditure ( time and money spent ) , so to return a healthy profit in this market place is quite comforting ....

( I have very quickly done some sums factoring in an average purchase price for a Z3 , KALI KIT INCL. VAT , a fitting fee by myself , a proper paintjob by Jeff H , wire wheels , a healthy sundry and unexpected setback allowance etc. and I can't get over 16-17,000 tops , thats not a ''from'' price , thats worst case scenario ...I don't know what the build agents charge , so may be a bit different ...but that's my guesstimate ... so , 17,000 approx. down , two months later sale of 20-22,000 approx. someone else does all the work , investor just picks the colour etc... and you get a return of about 15-25% minimum on your money after all the fun ...better than any bank ... )

Last edited by lancelot link; 27th June 2017 at 23:25..
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 28th June 2017, 08:17
smash smash is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 675
smash is on a distinguished road
Default

Or just get Jeff to do the whole thing

The only person who knows what Richard's car actually sold for is Richard. "Close to asking" was a response that he knew would get back to the forum. Don't blame him either - it's his business.

I'll find out shortly what the market thinks mine is worth and report back when it's sold

Last edited by smash; 28th June 2017 at 08:24..
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +0. The time now is 10:13.

copyright madabout-kitcars.com 2000-2020
terms and conditions | privacy policy