The story so far on my Berlinetta restoration

[8 Valve Ed]

Having got a few details out of the way, like how to post photographs, perhaps I should bring my account up to date.

I collected the car in July, I removed the engine and gearbox a couple of weeks previously, to reduce the weight because the heavy trailer and the Berlinetta was as much as my old Astra could manage for a 400 mile round trip. As it happened it must have been one of the hottest days of the year!

I stripped the car to a bare chassis and assessed what I had.



The engine was too close to the radiator and there was damage to the radiator where the water pump had tried to drill it's way through the cores, which had been soldered up at some stage. (More on this later.)

I have moved the engine back 115mm to give a reasonable space for the radiator to be moved back slightly to it's proper place and to ease the tightness for the steering column, taking advantage of the tapering of the engine bay.

I have removed the clutch pedal and cleaned up the pedal box, altering the position slightly to give better clearance for the RH cylinder head. I have created a new bulkhead from 1.5mm Aluminium.



I have lifted the floor by 50mm to improve the ground clearance so I can run the exhaust under the floor yet up out of the way of any rocks or rough ground of which we have plenty around here. I love using old roads and byways. This is going to be a car to use and have fun with, not a show car.

The transmission tunnel was in a poor way so rather than sticking with the square and rather crude form of the original I plan to have a rounded transmission tunnel. That makes things awkward for the handbrake which I was going to put on the floor between the drivers legs, but then I found an old Land Rover handbrake which is perfect. I modified the mounting bracket and have fitted it to the left of the gear shift position.



The Marlin range of cars are broadly styled on the 1930 6c Alfa Romeo design. I thought I would research the Alfa and see how it compared with the Marlin. I think The Alfa 6c is a beautiful car, there are several features about it which I feel I can incorporate into the Berlinetta build. Perhaps most strikingly a curved bonnet and scuttle. I also like the foldable windscreen and the dash design.



I have questions to ask, but that's some of the background to date.

[8 Valve Ed]

I have fitted the back axle, an Atlas Cortina axle with the 4 link suspension. For now it's bolted up but without springs, the chassis is on stands. I can lift and lower the axle to check movement and clearances.

I have also trial fitted a bare block and a gearbox with the intention of measuring the propshaft length.

Therein seems to be a problem... The propshaft length with the back axle at it's lowest position, or car at it's highest, is 35 inches face to face. When I raise the axle to it's highest, or car at lowest, the propshaft length face to face is 33 inches. A difference of 2 inches, or 50mm.

I have measured the propshaft I removed and that has only about 22mm of slide movement in it's length (it's a strange form of CV. Until I get the photo's sorted you will have to use imagination!). I have a number of Land Rover propshafts, I have measured them and they only have about 40mm of travel in their splines.

The front UJ/CV joint.



Rear UJ.



Am I right in thinking that the donor Cortina gearbox would not have had an output flange but a spline shaft instead? That could mean the propshaft had more extension capability than a flanged propshaft.

The mid shaft weld, and balancing Jubilee clip?



The full propshaft:



I would say in active use the dynamics of suspension movement could create more movement still so the propshaft needs to have plenty of reserve movement.

Going back to the radiator for a moment, I believe the reason the water pump has been trying to drill through the radiator, apart from it being very close to start with, is that the propshaft has been pushing the gearbox and engine forward significantly due to the suspension travel and the movement of the axle back and forth.

Water Pump and Radiator in close proximity.



Finally, one fault I have noticed is there is a considerable leakage of oil from the region of the axle input drive flange. At first I suspected the oil seal but I am now wondering if the oil is coming out via the splines and under the flange attachment nut, it was very wet between the propshaft and the axle input flange, does anybody have any experience of this with Ford axles? I also wonder if the forces imposed by having a propshaft which can't accommodate the axle movement have had a hand in causing the leak. The propshaft is very badly welded, in the centre, it must be out of balance, a Jubilee clip has been fitted, presumably to try to balance the shaft but I expect it's not straight so it will take more than a Jubilee clip to balance it I think.

Any thoughts please?

[scott h]

Hi, my thoughts are the same as yours, there is not enough sliding movement in the propshaft and so leading to all the other problems. The prop in your picture looks to have the same ends as the one I used in my Sierra based V8 Berli. It was made by joining the prop that came from the Rover car to the prop from the Sierra. As the diff in the Sierra is fixed I never had any problems. There were a good number of Cortina based Berlis that used the V8 so I wonder what they did?

When I built my car I was told to use the water pump from a P6 Rover as it was shorter than the SD1 pump. I would say the pump in your pic is from the P6. I discovered that I could gain some extra clearance by pulling the cone shaped boss off the shaft and pressing on the boss from the SD1 pump leaving an inch or so of protruding shaft which was then cut off.

Scott

[8 Valve Ed]

Thanks Scott, the SD1 axle has a torque tube and a short propshaft which has little to do in the way of sliding in and out. To be honest I was amazed the Ford axle input flange moves so far back and forth. If you add the dynamics of leaping about on a rough road and dropping the clutch in low gear I wouldn't mind betting it deflects another 20mm, given the chance.

The suspension has been bottoming out and therefore pushing the prop forward to the limits because I have noticed the gaunching of the cross member by the Axle input flange/rear UJ.

This picture is upside down!



Notice the gouged out area under the crossmember... The square tube is actually quite bashed out of shape where the gouging has taken place, there must have been some serious grinding noises when it happened.

I suspect that very few constructors did the same test I did, I wouldn't have bothered if I hadn't been looking for some cause of these issues. I am expecting to be using a Land Rover UJ at the front for my new propshaft and a circlip type rear Ford pattern UJ at the back.

I am tempted to remove the Axle input drive flange and apply some sealant and re-assemble in the hope that cures the leak from the front of the axle pigs head, wherever it is coming from. If the oil were leaking from the seal, then it would be more behind the flange rather than in front... Perhaps that's the clue.


As for the Water pump, I have two P5/P6 pumps and no short ones, I wanted to move the engine back to make it easy for a straight run for the steering column shaft. Having moved the engine back it has made lot's of space and a much more relaxed engine bay. Also I have moved the mass back nicely to add a bit more weight to the back wheels and take some off the front ones. The Roadster was almost exactly 50/50 front rear while empty, if I can get near that with the Berli I will be very happy.




Robert

[scimjim]

I've seen electric water pumps fitted to Rover V8s in land rover hybrid conversions to give extra clearance (but you need to fabricate a front cover and take off).

Looking at the axle problem from a different angle (ie the fault, not the symptoms) the trailing arms are presumably giving you the massive arc of movement - can this be engineered out?

[8 Valve Ed]

Originally Posted by scimjim

I've seen electric water pumps fitted to Rover V8s in land rover hybrid conversions to give extra clearance (but you need to fabricate a front cover and take off).

I have though about electric water pumps, they seem a good idea, help with warming up and provide extra cooling capacity at times of stress, I may go down that route one day. From a space point of view the engine needed moving back anyway so moving the engine back solved several issues and had other benefits like moving the centre of mass back a little.

Looking at the axle problem from a different angle (ie the fault, not the symptoms) the trailing arms are presumably giving you the massive arc of movement - can this be engineered out?

The issue from that point of view is that the arms are too short, producing a small radius of movement, the top links being the shortest and the main culprits here. To lengthen them would mean loosing the back seats in the car and removing/moving a crossmember. That would destroy the legal identity of the chassis and make it liable for an IVA which the Berlinetta will never pass now, due the the VOSA Policy re. the (in VOSA's opinion, inadequate) mounting of the Cortina front subframe.

The axle moves 160mm up and down and 50mm backwards and forwards, as you say that is a lot. Sticking with the existing suspension arms and re-locating them so they are horizontal at rest (unladen, mid travel) might reduce the fore-aft movement slightly but not enough to make a big difference I don't think, although I will look at that possibility. The axle cannot reach it's limits due to the input flange grinding into the crossmember, so perhaps a pair of bump stops to take out some of the movement might help. I will give your idea of adjusting the mountings some thought, it may help in more ways than one. One of the things I want is better ground clearance, so these things may work together, thanks for setting my mind on a different path.