Brake line confusion

[morris]

Hi All, looking for some advice on using the HEL braided brake hoses Marlin supply in Mod1. The lengths and fittings on the ends seem to have nothing to do with any of my donor parts or the dimensions of the chassis

All the original BMW fittings are M10x1.0 on the calipers, E30 brake master cylinder and after market brake lines.

The fittings on the supplied hoses are as follows (as far as I can tell anyway there may be many other thread types I've never come across)



The 4 lines provided by Marlin are

2 x ~2.8m B to C
1 x ~2.5m A to C
1 x ~1.7m A to C

only fitting A works with the standard donor parts.

I'm also confused about why there are 4 lines and not 3, 1 to the rear and out to the calipers via a t-piece and 2 to each of the front brakes as that's what the master cylinder can support.

What's more the approximate lengths needed to go from the master cylinder to each of the four corners are
1.2m
2.1m
2.4m
2.5m

which leaves loads of excess in the supplied lines.

I've just taken delivery of a HEL kit for the E36 donor but I'm starting to wonder whether Marlins intention was actually to run directly to the calipers and not via bulkhead adapters as I've seen most people do.

I'm also wondering whether they've given me a set of hoses for either a ford master cylinder or even for an older donor such as E30 or sierra.

I'm starting to think putting them on the shelf and just ordering up some copper is the way to go as that will be a nice tidy fit

I'll get an email off to Marlin too but any advice would be appreciated

thanks
Ian

[NigelB]

Ian,
I was supplied with 7 lines in total as follows.
2 x master cylinder to front bulkhead break.
2 x bulkhead breaks to the corresponding calipers
1 x master cylinder to rear T piece
2 x T piece to L and R rear calipers.

They were all on the long side (but that's better than being too short!!) and they certainly weren't so long that I couldn't loose the excess.

However, the lines supplied between the front bulkhead and the front calipers were completely useless. Far to long and fitted with banjo connectors on one end and a male on the other, which didn't mate too well with the male on the bulkhead connector.

I discovered this not long after my 'steering rack's too short episode' so I took a deep breath and just ordered the right lines from BGC Motorsport.

Nigel

[timbo]

I used a combination of copper pipe for most of the fronts (as Nigel says, the supplied connectors didn't match up) and the HEL hose to the rear. I also seem to recall I had to put in a pressure regulator at the rear to get the balance between the front and rear brakes to comply with IVA requirements.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3310545...in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3310545...in/photostream

Hope this helps
Tim

[GreatOldOne]

Originally Posted by morris

I'm also confused about why there are 4 lines and not 3, 1 to the rear and out to the calipers via a t-piece and 2 to each of the front brakes as that's what the master cylinder can support.

I'm guessing the shortest of them all will be for your clutch, with the UNF / M10 fitting being an adaptor for the clutch slave.

[GreatOldOne]

Looking at the pictures again, and what ends you say they've got, I still thing that the shortest one is your clutch line - but I don't think you'll need the adaptor, as one end has the same thread and diameter as the metric end of it.

As for the others.... I don't know at all - I like the others got one long line to the back, two medium lines to each rear corner from the t-piece, two lines to go either side at the front, with through bulkhead connectors and then two small lines to go from each of those to the front calipers

My clutch line had a banjo connector on the master cylinder end.

http://greatoldone.squarespace.com/b...the-front.html

http://greatoldone.squarespace.com/b...-the-rear.html

http://greatoldone.squarespace.com/b...-plumbing.html

The interconects between the short front pipes and where it go through the body work had cone like mating surfaces. M10 iirc.

[morris]

Thanks for all the replies.

Goo,
after looking at your photos things make a bit more sense. I had it in my head that the braided lines from Marlin were a very new thing so assumed only the newbies had them and didn't even both looking at your blog (new format looks pretty good btw).

The shorter lines I have look identical to those in your photos so I guess I'll just need to be creative in tying the excess up. Looks like you have the ford master cylinder which may??? have the tapered fittings and that may explain why mine don't quite fit properly. I think a change of adapter should sort that out.

One of the long lines could run down to a T-piece provided I can find one with an M12 female on it.

I then think I'll definitely have to run a small length of copper either side to link up with the rear arms.

The 4th long line is still a mystery. Marlin list the clutch line as an extra that I never paid for so I'm starting to wonder if they actually gave me one too many by mistake. none of my lines have banjos either.

Timbo,
which pressure regulator did you go for and where did you fit it (front or back). Peter suggested I may need one before but after a bit of research I had come to the conclusion they were specifically for cars where the master cylinder sits below the calipers/drums. Happy to be told I'm wrong and if it's an IVA thing then I'll have to factor it in.

Nigel,
I take it you took the option to buy the extra hoses to the rear that are on the Marlin price list? That would explain why you got extra.

I think I have a way forward now as I can use the lock nut trick on the front bulkheads rather than buying specific adapters and provided I can find some way to adapt the weird tapered fittings to my standard M10x1.0 cylinder the rest should come together.

cheers
Ian

[timbo]

Patrick recommended to me an E30 pressure reduction valve:
Quote:
I've had a look on realoem but can't really see anything on the E36:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.d...47&hg=34&fg=15

Here's the part on the E30, number 5:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...& hg=34&fg=15

Sourced one from a BMW breakers yard. Did the trick

[morris]

Hi Timbo, your links don't seem to work, was it number 8 on this diagram?

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...52&hg=34&fg=15

I take it you mounted at the front directly after the master cylinder?

I've also done further hunting around on the web and come to the conclusion that I've incorrectly identified some of the fittings in the original photo

- Adapter 3/8 UNF to M10 x 0.9 is actually -3 JIC to BSPT or NPT

so to adapt that end of all three lines onto the master cylinder I should just be able to buy some of these

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Motors...read/1735/6136

Finding an M12x1 adapter for the rear line is proving more difficult

[peterux]

I can't help to solve your questions on the flexi lines as I am 'old skool' copper pipes (Although I did get banjo fittings for my front calipers which Kevin swapped to the straight 10mm on one of my trips to Exeter)

But recently looking at brake line parts (another story...) I found a very extensive range of unions and adaptors on this site......

http://www.mamut.net/automec_uk/shop/ ... then follow the link to 'Unions'

...might help

[mashtun]

Just picking up on the Ford aspect, Goo's does look like a Ford master cylinder. There weren't any tapered fittings on my Ford-based Cabrio - everything was all M10 x 1.0 straight thread.

[timbo]

Sorry the links don't work. It's either part 5 or part 7 on your diagram. Sorry I can't recall which (and have no access to the car to check - I found my purchase on ebay but it was too long ago to keep the item details/pic, but it cost 25 quid in 2009) but maybe Patrick can verify which...
I mounted it at the back just before the t-piece.

[morris]

Sorry, part 5 was what I meant (flicked back to the pic and didn't re-read the key). I'll get one ordered.

I've had no luck on finding an M12 female to M10 male convertor so as the provided rear line is too long, has the wrong connector and I'm going to have to do some plumbing anyway for the regulator and round the back to the calipers, I think I'll just go for copper all the way for the rears and use the provided braided for the front. I'll need to do similar for the fuel lines too so may as well invest in a pipe bender and flaring kit.

Just need to figure out which size pipe I need and I'll get an order in this evening

[peterux]

Note the warnings in this thread...

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/foru...referrerid=181

[morris]

Managed to pick up some replacement hose adaptors from a very helpful ebayer who turned out to be 3 minutes down the road from me.




The new one is on top with the M10 end and the dodgy NPT one at the bottom, soon to find its way onto ebay with the other 3 supplied
I can now plug the shorter of the supplied hoses into my master cylinder and get on with some plumbing.

I've decided to go for copper to the rear for now and picked up pipe, flaring kit, rivit gun, T-piece, male fittings and a pipe bender and P clips are in the post. hopefully it should all come together for a major push on the weekend.

I'm waiting for a reply from QuarryMotors on the pressure regulator but if they can't supply, I'll just buy new from BMW.

I also have to take into account the arrival shortly of the new dual brake boosters so the final ends of the pipe work will be left a bit loose to allow movement to fit.


I can recommend the bloke I bought the adapters from, Alex at http://www.torques.co.uk. he's working from a unit on a small trading estate in Abergavenny and has wall to wall stock of high quality brake, clutch, fuel fittings and hoses. Loads of stainless steel and the sexy anodised red and blue parts. he also does kits for making up your own hoses (can't supply made up due to insurance implications).