Fuel Hose Panic!

[Mike]

Originally Posted by peterux

I'm resurrecting an older discussion about Fuel Hose specification and suitability.

Researching for E10 fuel (petrol with 10% ethanol) I came across this interesting post....

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/view...php?tid=153126

Now that got me thinking about the future IVA test for my Royale Sabre. It's not clear when E10 fuel will be introduced into the UK and the German government seems to have botched their introduction which may delay the UK introduction. You can carry on using super unleaded but that is only going to get more and more expensive.

I think the IVA manual only says that the Fuel Hose has to be 'suitable'. Copper is not compatible with E10 (as it corrodes) so my conclusion is that I should be fitting SAE30R9 rubber hose all the way from my tank to fuel rail.
(My IVA is probably 2 years away by which time E10 may be common)

The trouble is finding a supplier of a premium branded SAE30R9 hose.
But I think i've found a supplier today. I'll speak to them in the next few days and see if they are happy to supply direct to the public in small'ish quantities.


...peter

Peter

I bought R9 from an ebay supplier - but he was not easy to find.

Mike

[peterux]

Originally Posted by MartinClan

What about the semi-rigid nylon hose that is sold as suitable for just about everything?

Robin

Edit - good article here .http://www.groups.tr-register.co.uk/...ol-update.html

It seems that just about everything is affected by it (Including nylon!). But - on the practical side it seems we are already using petrol with 5% ethanol and I haven't had any problems with the Sportster which has now been on the road over 3 years. So why should E10 (10%) be that much worse? If it is just twice as bad then perhaps in practice there isn't a big problem?

I now need to lie down after reading all of that. I have no intention of changing the Sportster as it runs on the super unleaded, ( the no ethanol stuff).

My post was more about 'what fuel hose should I fit to pass the IVA in say 2 years from now'
Goodyear SAE30R9 is specifically designed for this application so seems the prudent choice.

Introduction of E10 in Germany is not going well, so the UK government might back off.......

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-749199.html

But the UK government may have created a perfect scenario...

Introduce a rule that says that pre-1960 cars don't need an MOT and then introdcue a new fuel that dissolve their fuel lines!! Just perfect!!

[MartinClan]

There seems to be plenty of SAEJ30R9 on E-bay. Commonly referred to as R9. Is that the same stuff?

Seems to be lined with a fleuro something or other.....

Robin

[peterux]

Originally Posted by MartinClan

There seems to be plenty of SAEJ30R9 on E-bay. Commonly referred to as R9. Is that the same stuff?

Seems to be lined with a fleuro something or other.....

Robin

The guy on eBay advertising R9 hose insists its fully marked but is being a bit shy about telling me who manufactured it and doesn't have a specification sheet which is not very handy for the IVA tester?? I'd rather get some premium hose fully marked, etc.

I'm getting some prices for this stuff....

http://flexiducting.co.uk/automotive_hoses_26.html


I'll post them here when I get the prices agreed.

...peter

[cabrioman]

Spotted this stuff online

http://www.rallynuts.com/motorsport-...fuel-hose.html

States E10 compatible and available as high pressure injection or low pressure.

John

[peterux]

Originally Posted by cabrioman

Spotted this stuff online

http://www.rallynuts.com/motorsport-...fuel-hose.html

States E10 compatible and available as high pressure injection or low pressure.

John

Hmmm...an interesting additional note added to the web page spec but further down it says SAE30R7 which doesn't (as far as I can make out) cope with ethanol enhanced fuels.

I'd already looked at the Sytec spec here...
http://www.glencoeltd.co.uk/fuel-hos...mm-ihs600-820/
as I've used Sytec before but I can't find anything that says Ethanol in their spec sheet or a R9 variant.

The Goodyear spec is very clear....
http://www.goodyearep.com/ProductsDetail.aspx?id=17700

and specifically states...
"Compatibile with gasoline, ethanol extended fuels, diesel and biodiesel fuels"

I can see why the industry is confused in Germany!!

...peter

[peterux]

Originally Posted by Mike

Peter

I bought R9 from an ebay supplier - but he was not easy to find.

Mike

Hi Mike,
I missed your post earlier today....

Can you share a picture of the marking on the hose and a spec sheet if you have one?,

thanks, Peter

[Mike]

Originally Posted by peterux

Hi Mike,
I missed your post earlier today....

Can you share a picture of the marking on the hose and a spec sheet if you have one?,

thanks, Peter

Hi Peter

The photo below shows all the markings (there are no others). I do not recollect receiving a spec. sheet. However, the supplier was Advanced Fluid Solutions Battlbridge, Essex.

I have also sourced braided high pressure hose from Stevson Motors who apparently supply Jaguar, Rolls Royce, Ferrari, etc with their braided hoses. They are very helpful, and can be contacted on: 0121 472 1702

[morris]

I'm pretty sure I bought that hose from Advanced Fluid Solutions too. I'll check tonight

[peterux]

Originally Posted by Mike

Hi Peter

The photo below shows all the markings (there are no others). I do not recollect receiving a spec. sheet. However, the supplier was Advanced Fluid Solutions Battlbridge, Essex.

I have also sourced braided high pressure hose from Stevson Motors who apparently supply Jaguar, Rolls Royce, Ferrari, etc with their braided hoses. They are very helpful, and can be contacted on: 0121 472 1702

Thanks, Mike. That certainly has the correct marking, so no issue for your IVA test. It was Advanced Fluid Solutions that I had messaged on ebay, but have so far not been able to tell me who the manufacturer is.
I'll try the other guys you mentioned if I get stuck but I've now found a UK supplier who has the pucker Goodyear stuff in stock.

...peter

[morris]

I checked mine this evening, it was from afs and it says "W = FUEL HOSE SAE J30 R6 SUITABLE FOR UNLEADED 5/16".

I'm not so worried about the Ethanol issue for the moment but as it makes no use of the "INJECTION" keyword, is it going to be an issue? It is pretty tough stuff and has reinforcment fabric running through it. I did have a short length of the other non-reinforced stuff and binned it on general principle that it was going to collapse under its own weight let alone take any pressure.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by morris

I checked mine this evening, it was from afs and it says "W = FUEL HOSE SAE J30 R6 SUITABLE FOR UNLEADED 5/16".

I'm not so worried about the Ethanol issue for the moment but as it makes no use of the "INJECTION" keyword, is it going to be an issue? It is pretty tough stuff and has reinforcment fabric running through it. I did have a short length of the other non-reinforced stuff and binned it on general principle that it was going to collapse under its own weight let alone take any pressure.

I had a problem tightening up the jubilee clips on the braided pipe sufficiently to make a good seal. So I removed the stainless outer coating from the first 20mm. I tightened it up and made a perfect seal. As soon as I switched the pump on the unprotected part of the tube just blew up like a balloon until it burst!..............Lesson learned!!

[peterux]

Originally Posted by peterux

.... but I've now found a UK supplier who has the pucker Goodyear stuff in stock.

...peter

A quick update...

if anyone wants some Gates Barricade - ethanol compatible fuel infection hose you can contact:

Flexiducting & Tubing Ltd
Phone 01727 821480
Mob 07967757347
sales@flexiducting.co.uk
www.flexiducting.co.uk

Ask to speak to Wayne Dando.

He has given me the following prices (so far) but I've been trying to get him to 'sharpen his pencil' with some better prices

6mm(1/4”) x 4.57m(15’) Gates Barricade Fuel Hose – Price £37.28 per/coil
6mm(1/4”) x 7.62m(25’) Gates Barricade Fuel Hose – Price £53.20 per/coil
8mm(5/16”) x 4.57m(15’) Gates Barricade Fuel Hose – Price £41.92 per/coil
8mm(5/16”) x 7.62m(25’) Gates Barricade Fuel Hose – Price £63.40 per/coil
10mm(3/8”) x 4.57m(15’) Gates Barricade Fuel Hose – Price £46.36 per/coil
10mm(3/8”) x 7.62m(25’) Gates Barricade Fuel Hose – Price £68.42 per/coil

Prices are plus delivery (about £10) and plus VAT.

As you can see it's not cheap!! (10mm hose works out about £12-15 per metre, depending on how much you buy, about twice the price of the ebay stuff)

I think the Goodyear 30R9 fuel injection hose could be a little cheaper but I'm waiting for a full price breakdown from Wayne.

Details of Gates hoses here...

http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?br...cation_id=5348

...peter

[peterux]

Originally Posted by denniswpearce

Interesting thought occured,................ as you are all thinking about possibly changing your brake pipes because of the ethanol problem ( deteriorisation of pipes ) how does that affect our daily runabouts ? Those of us who have petrol cars that is ?

Hi Dennis,
I've moved your question here....

It is my understanding that generally speaking cars made in the last 10-15 years should not be affected because the major OEM's have been aware.

In fact, I was not proposing anyone changes their hoses unless they have obvious failures and leakage (usually detected by a strong smell of petrol in your garage overnight).

The problem I was addressing is that the current IVA test for newly built kit cars doesn't actually specify what type of hose or pipes to use but you must be able to demonstrate that it is suitable. You usually demonstrate this by a) markings on the hose and b) a spec sheet from the manufacturer.

My next IVA test will likely be about 2 years from now so I need to be able to demonstrate that my hoses are suitable for the petrol in use at that time.

The rest of the discussion is described above.

My advice to you is not to worry or change anything unless you have a leak!

P.S. Its getting really confusing now as I've seen at least one respectable trade supplier advertising SAE J30R7 hose as being E10 compatible which it clearly isn't!! Ahem......

[morris]

Looks like I'm going to have to rip out all my fuel lines and swap to SAE 30 R9.

Ever since I started the car for the first time and ran the petrol through the lines the garage has smelt petroly. Not like a fresh spill but just this back ground stink all the time. It leaks through into the house too which isn't pleasant. I thought first of all it was where I'd spilt some on the engine etc when I was changing over my injector seals but this is over three weeks now and the smell is just as strong. I can't find any leaks and have checked all hoses clips are tight. When you sniff around trying to find where it's coming from you can actually smell it through the hose. I wouldn't be surprised at this if it they'd been on for 10 years or something based on what I've read about modern fuel in R6 hose but this is only a year old (I assume).

I'm not so much worried about the extra expense, more the hassle of what was, with the engine and gearbox in, a painful job in the first place let alone with a face full of fuel on the cards

[Mike]

Originally Posted by morris

Looks like I'm going to have to rip out all my fuel lines and swap to SAE 30 R9.

Ever since I started the car for the first time and ran the petrol through the lines the garage has smelt petroly. Not like a fresh spill but just this back ground stink all the time. It leaks through into the house too which isn't pleasant. I thought first of all it was where I'd spilt some on the engine etc when I was changing over my injector seals but this is over three weeks now and the smell is just as strong. I can't find any leaks and have checked all hoses clips are tight. When you sniff around trying to find where it's coming from you can actually smell it through the hose. I wouldn't be surprised at this if it they'd been on for 10 years or something based on what I've read about modern fuel in R6 hose but this is only a year old (I assume).

I'm not so much worried about the extra expense, more the hassle of what was, with the engine and gearbox in, a painful job in the first place let alone with a face full of fuel on the cards

Hi Ian

Cn I offer you a glimmer of hope?
I had the same petrol smell after I had put a gallon in my tank. I could not see any leaks,and there were no obvious signs of a drip on the floor either, yet the slight smell of petrol persisted.

I found my problem when I changed my diff and had to take the fuel tank out.

I had used the stainless braided (expensive!) fuel hose with a plastic end cap, to go from my tank to the HP pump. The problem was that the plastic end cap isolated the inner tube too much and the jubilee clip just would not tighten the tube up sufficiently around the Marlin union.

Turns out I had two problems - the Marlin out let was only 10mm and I was using 12mm pipe, and secondly there are better fuel pipe clips than jubilees. I've now discarded the plastic end cap and used proper pipe clips, and my petrol smell has disappeared.

There is hope!

Mike

[morris]

Hi Mike,

I'm using 10mm ID SAE 30 R6 hose from tank to pump to swirl pot and back and it was a very snug fit getting it onto the tank outlets so I don't think I've quite the same problem as you. I'm using the proper mini clips throughout too rather than jubilees as I'd heard they can not get the best seal.

What I plan to do on the weekend is get the car back up on stands as I need to go under and measure up for the propshaft anyway so I'll give all the hoses up the tunnel a good check in case I've nicked one of them accidently while drilling or something. I'll also be able to double check all the clips are nice and tight under the rear at the same time.

One other thing along the same lines as what you say is that the barbed 10mm outlets on my swirl pot are a bit smooth so the 10mm hose slides on and off a little too easily so that may be a source of a slight leak and that is also the main area that stinks the most. I had a go swapping the return for 8mm hose with a proper 10-8mm adapter on earlier to see if that would improve things but haven't got round to doing the inlet and rail return yet. Hopefully it will be something simple and I can leave the main lines alone

Fingers crossed
cheers
Ian

[denniswpearce]

I don,t think its your hoses Ian, petrol is different to water in that it has no surface tension and will escape from areas that water never would and as such would probably permeate along the hoses as well giving you the feeling that is coming from them. I would suspect you have a leak from one or more of your connections somewhere.
If you want to know more about petrol and the potential problems relating to E10 fuel that is coming this year I posted an interesting article a few days ago in General chatter a few days ago. Be warned though its quite long.
Good luck with the investigation, let us know what you find.

[peterux]

Originally Posted by morris

Looks like I'm going to have to rip out all my fuel lines and swap to SAE 30 R9.

Ever since I started the car for the first time and ran the petrol through the lines the garage has smelt petroly. Not like a fresh spill but just this back ground stink all the time. It leaks through into the house too which isn't pleasant. I thought first of all it was where I'd spilt some on the engine etc when I was changing over my injector seals but this is over three weeks now and the smell is just as strong. I can't find any leaks and have checked all hoses clips are tight. When you sniff around trying to find where it's coming from you can actually smell it through the hose. I wouldn't be surprised at this if it they'd been on for 10 years or something based on what I've read about modern fuel in R6 hose but this is only a year old (I assume).

I'm not so much worried about the extra expense, more the hassle of what was, with the engine and gearbox in, a painful job in the first place let alone with a face full of fuel on the cards

Like others, I think you have a leak as there is no E10 petrol yet and your hoses wouldn't leak so quickly.
My car was in my 'integrated' garage at home for over 5 years with petrol and never a wif of petrol.
Patrick had pin holes in his aluminium fuel tank so that is another thing to check. Do you have a filler cap fitted?

[morris]

I did a few things yesterday that hopefully will help.

- two out of 3 of the badly made 10mm outlets (more like 9mm) on my swirl pot now have 8mm hose stretched over them with an appropriately sized mini clip. Waiting on some more hose to do the 3rd one.
- Inspection plate on the tank and dip tube sender have been re-sealed with blue hylomar.
- Marlin supplied one way valve on the tank vent has been turned around so it only lets air in not out.
- The bottom inlet on my facet lifter pump had a very slow seep from the NTP-10mm adapter on the NTP side so that has had a little more torque applied. don't want to over do that though or I really will have proper leak

I've also noticed that my 'vented' filler cap seems to be venting continously which is not going to help. I thought the idea was it would let out excess gas if the tank got too warm and expanded. There is little chance of that happening in my garage. I'm going to tape a couple of food bags over it today and see if that is the source as the garage still smelled this morning even after all those other fixes