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Go Back   Madabout Kitcars Forum > Mad Build Area > Dino 246 Builds and Discussion

Dino 246 Builds and Discussion Da da da da daaa daa da da, ohoho Dino

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  #61  
Old 23rd July 2017, 12:43
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Default chassis

Hi All

A bit quiet on here for a while. I've been messing with my adaptor plate for a few weeks. Using the one I'd had made I've started on work my own.Taking the measurements I've had one machined in hard clear acrylic and by using a centre machined to fit the crank it fitted onto the v6 perfectly.
Then by fitting the centre to the mr2 gearbox input shaft I've offered it up to the gearbox and aligned the two.Unfortunately one of the 2 bolts/dowels that align the adaptor plate to the v6 engine (used to align the gearbox usually) collides with the output cover plate on the gearbox. Also 3 of the 7 bolts on the cover plate will bind also. So this got me thinking!!
First up I removed the cover plate on the mr2 gearbox to have a look. My luck was in as it's just a flat 10mm alley plate so I can change the 3 offending bolts to either countersunk bolts or cap head bolts and counter bore the plate.To over come the alignment dowel I'm going to have to increase the thickness of the adaptor plate from 10mm to 20mm. Because of this I'm going to switch from steel to aluminium for the plate.
Now where the gearbox cover fits I'll remove 10mm of metal from the plate so keeping both alignment dowels in the plate. I can also remove some metal so I only have to counterbore one hole for the bolts.
Before I have the final plate made in alley I'm have another one machine in hard acrylic to check everything fits.

Ian
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  #62  
Old 12th August 2017, 12:11
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Default chassis

hi all

Been looking at various chassis and designs I've come across a dax cobra one. some on here have a said a basic platform type chassis are not ideal but this gets good reviews and the cobra boys use big powered v8's. I also like the front camber compensation idea.

ian
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  #63  
Old 7th October 2017, 20:07
rossnzwpi rossnzwpi is online now
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Default Aeon GT with duratec V6

Here is a link to a guy with images of his Aeon GT chassis fitted with the Duratec V6. It is quite an interesting chassis design and the Ford V6 front wheel drive unit is transposed readily to the mid engine position.
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/phot...folder=Chassis

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  #64  
Old 16th October 2017, 13:34
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Hi

Had a look at this build. The chassis uses a De dion type rear setup with trailing rear arms. In the photo the engine and box sit quite high and he mentions this in his notes and how he has lowered it in the chassis to get the drive shafts more horizontal.
This got me thinking. A car I have followed over the years was the phantom gt which became the vortex gt. The designer called it a modern day dino!! So I've posted on there for spec's etc and to see if their chassis could be used of can be altered and used.

ian
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  #65  
Old 19th October 2017, 09:50
rossnzwpi rossnzwpi is online now
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This is Ricolas rebuild of a Phantom GT chasis (Rover V6 if I remember correctly)


http://www.ricola.co.uk/gtr_rebuild_2.htm



Phantom (Vortex) history page. http://www.vortex-auto.co.uk/vortex--our-history.html
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  #66  
Old 19th October 2017, 19:49
Mitchelkitman Mitchelkitman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecarbuilder246 View Post
hi all

Been looking at various chassis and designs I've come across a dax cobra one. some on here have a said a basic platform type chassis are not ideal but this gets good reviews and the cobra boys use big powered v8's. I also like the front camber compensation idea.

ian
But the engines in the wrong end! Why not look at a Pie Valley chassis?
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  #67  
Old 21st October 2017, 11:20
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Default chassis

HI

Yes the dax chassis would have the engine the 'wrong end'. It was just an example of a simple ladder type chassis similar to the dino one. What I liked was dax's camber compensation arrangement at the front instead of an anti roll bar.
The other chassis with the 'engine the right' end was from a vortex. I was mulling over adapting one of these as I know where there is one for sale.
I had looked at pie valley chassis's after they were featured in which kit magazine but they use either beetle donor parts or mg and neither fits in with my design.
The original chassis I have is built from small 25 x 25 and 40 x 40 box section with 1mm flat plate. It has high cills and a huge centre /back bone which I want to remove as I want a more authentic cockpit. see attached

ian
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  #68  
Old 23rd October 2017, 06:23
rossnzwpi rossnzwpi is online now
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Default DGT / Deon chassis

Hi Ian,
that looks like the original John Hurst (DGT / Deon) chassis to me. My guess would be that unless custom axles were specced it would have the same rear track as the front track of the donor Lancia Beta. One site I googled put that at 1410mm front Beta Coupe track - pretty close to a genuine Dino.

As for removing the central tunnel - my uneducated guess would be that you'd have to compensate with other high beams or beef up the beam's section at low level. I've been thinking of three longitudinal 25x25mm rails. Two as high and wide as possible under the top of the sill and one as low as possible. short upright tubes join all three with triangulation in all planes.
206_sill_idea_Rossnzwpi.jpg

206_sill_idea-2_Rossnzwpi.jpg

and here's a genuine 206GT - see how broad and high the sills are
206_sill_idea-3_Rossnzwpi.jpg

cheers
Ross (in NZ)
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  #69  
Old 23rd October 2017, 20:22
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Default chassis

Hi

The chassis rails on the dino are oval shaped and at the tallest are 75mm or 3 inches high by 40mm or 1.5 inches.
The deon uses very small 40mm x 20mm tubes for perimeter of the centre section beef up with 1mm steel sheet for the cills. This then has a small 20mm x 20mm sq tube top rail welded to it. It is sparsely with more braced with 20mm x 20mm sq tube.
The centre tunnel is again 40mm x 20mm tube beefed up with 1mm steel sheet and 20mm x 20mm steel tube along its top edge.
My Idea is to use 75mm x50mm tube for the perimeter with 2 x 50mm x 25mm rails for the centre tunnel.I will weld in cross bracing into the floor with additional steel to bolt in the seats and seat belt anchors.
Deon used 40mm x 40mm for the rear/engine section and I'll copy this with the same. The front section used a mix of 50mm x 20mm / 40mm x 40mm / 20mm x 20mm. I'll probably use 40mm x 40mm and cross brace with 25mm x 25mm.
I've attached a few more photo's showing how little the deon centre section has cross bracing.I've also tried to show how small some of the rails are.

ian
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  #70  
Old 23rd October 2017, 20:44
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Thumbs up chassis

Quote:
Originally Posted by rossnzwpi View Post
Hi Ian,
that looks like the original John Hurst (DGT / Deon) chassis to me. My guess would be that unless custom axles were specced it would have the same rear track as the front track of the donor Lancia Beta. One site I googled put that at 1410mm front Beta Coupe track - pretty close to a genuine Dino.

As for removing the central tunnel - my uneducated guess would be that you'd have to compensate with other high beams or beef up the beam's section at low level. I've been thinking of three longitudinal 25x25mm rails. Two as high and wide as possible under the top of the sill and one as low as possible. short upright tubes join all three with triangulation in all planes.
Attachment 4697

Attachment 4698

and here's a genuine 206GT - see how broad and high the sills are
Attachment 4699

cheers
Ross (in NZ)
Yes Ross that is a deon gt chassis. It was just to show the tubes they used.
ian
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  #71  
Old 23rd October 2017, 22:21
rossnzwpi rossnzwpi is online now
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Hi Ian, the route of putting in larger section tubes and plate strengthening is very sound and of course there is the option of increasing the gauge of the steel as well. It does make for extra weight but its a pretty light car anyway. When I said 'how broad and high the sills are' I was meaning that within the body lines of the sill there is room for a differently-shaped and stronger chassis side member than the Deon has. It relies on height over the original Ferrari chassis's 3" oval tube. I'm following your build avidly
cheers
Ross
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  #72  
Old 24th October 2017, 00:30
molleur molleur is offline
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2"x3"x.125 wall mild steel is plenty for the major tubes in the sills.
A combination of 2"x2"x.125 and 1"x1"x.125 located properly could do well.
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  #73  
Old 29th October 2017, 12:25
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Default chassis

Hi

Attached are a few measurements of the deon cockpit to show just how high the centre tunnel and cills are.
The centre tunnel carries two coolant pipes to the front mounted radiator/brake pipes and several wires. It's far oversized for this.
The high cills also ruin the look of the cockpit. My car also has the later type lower floor said to give more room,but resulted in deon removing alot of the cross bracing to allow for it.
ian
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  #74  
Old 29th October 2017, 12:27
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Default chassis

Hi all

another shot with the door open showing how obtrusive the high cill actually is.

Ian
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  #75  
Old 14th November 2017, 10:17
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Default chassis

Hi all

Been looking for a while for the deon's front track size as I'd dismantled my front suspension.As no one seems able to help I've bolted it all back on as per deon's initial set up info.
I've used a laser to set up some datum/centre lines and using the laser and an engineers square I've managed to get an accurate front track measurement from the brake disc/wheel mount face. This is 1460mm. I know the front track on a 246 gt is 1425mm so the deon is on a wider track.
So does anyone know if the deon/jhclassic dino body is wider than the actual dino body? Or does the dino used a different wheel offset? I know the deon/jhclassic uses 0mm wheel offset.

ian
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  #76  
Old 14th November 2017, 10:36
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Default chassis

hi all

Sorry a bit confused! I should have put the deon uses an 8mm offset. Now I'm not sure if this is a plus+ or minus- offset. I'm guessing it's a minus offset as this would bring the overall track width down by 16mm.So if the same size rims were used an overall track would be 19mm wider at the tyre.
I also know from deon's I've seen that the front wheels always looked like they were a little to wide for the car-sticking out from the front arches slightly.
The cromodora wheels are 0mm offset.

ian
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  #77  
Old 15th November 2017, 17:39
rossnzwpi rossnzwpi is online now
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Default Deon track

Hey Ian,
how does 1460 come about? Is it not a Lancia Beta engine, gearbox with Beta driveshafts and hubs? The Beta at1410 is narrower than 1460 by 50mm (2 inches). No matter what Deon do with the wishbones they'd be stuck with the same measurement hub to hub as the Beta wouldn't they? Unless I'm missing something.

Lancia HPE 2000i.e.
http://www.italian-cars-club.com/Squ...-hpe2000ie.jpg
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  #78  
Old 15th November 2017, 18:06
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Default chassis

Hi Ross

My car is the later deon with the ford 2.9 v6 which I've uprated to the 24v cosworth engine. It uses all new design upper and lower wishbones at the back with custom made drive shafts but to the standard lancia upright and lancia hubs at the rear. I've not actually measured the rear yet.
The size I've come up with is for the front. I've measured from disc face to disc face and this is the said size of 1460. The track is wheel centre to wheel centre and I'm assuming deon used a minus -8mm wheel offset so this gives an overall track of 1444. The 246 was 1425 so the deon was 19 mm oversize!
As I will be using cromadora wheels with a 0 offset I need to reduce the track by 35mm. This could be easily achieved on the deon by screwing in the bush holders as there is 22mm at the bottom and 19mm at the top. To keep bump steer to 0 the steering arm adaptors could also be wound by the same amount.
But I think I'll reduce the chassis here in width by probably 30mm and keep the deon set up as is.

ian
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  #79  
Old 16th November 2017, 15:58
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Default chassis

Hi all

I've checked the measurement at the back of the deon and have 1480mm disc face to disc face. Giving a rear track assuming the deon wheel offset is -8 per side of 1464mm. Again wider than the 246 by 34mm and again this is possible to reduce on the bottom pair of wishbones but later spec deon's had fixed upper wishbones so narrowing of the chassis is needed.

ian

Last edited by thecarbuilder246; 16th November 2017 at 16:14.. Reason: missed a bit off
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  #80  
Old 17th November 2017, 01:08
rossnzwpi rossnzwpi is online now
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That is very interesting Ian! Perhaps the later Deon chassis that you have is wider to cope with the Ford engine? I guess that narrowing the track but keeping the same driveshafts would need checking to see that the shafts still had enough travel, lengthwise, so they don't bind. Given that the Deon body shell was originally moulded from a 206 Dino the 206 tracks are what you want to replicate? To my eyes the way the wheel/tyre combo fills the arch on the 246 looks better on the 246 than the 206.
The Ferrari Dino 206 was:
track front: 1425mm. (246GT is 1425)
track rear: 1400mm. (246GT is 1430)

here are a few images - the 206 was originally specced with narrower 185 tyres as well as having a narrower track in the rear:

206GT_track.jpg

206GT_rear_arch3.jpg

246GT_rear_arch.jpg
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