Beware Of Imitations !

lancelot link · #1 19th April 2012, 09:14

Not going to rant on about being very protective of my 'babies' or bore you all with how hard it is to survive in this industry financially etc etc. but just wanted to give you the heads up on something that has come to my attention recently....

We sold a body to a guy 'up country' who wanted to build his own frame...not a problem.

I took time out to show him a frame , photocopied a picture of one and allowed him to write all the measurements down etc....not a problem - thats what I do...

He even asked about being an Agent , but has told one customer the bodies dont fit , they touch the Herald engine , sit too low at the back etc etc... Not good sales practice and not true....we all know they need tweaking a little but they fit IF you get the frame and positioning right...

The problem has arisen from the customer trawling ebay , I believe , contacting guys selling Herald parts that look like the remains of a Sammio donor and offering them a budget frame for their kit.

From what I understand , he has gotten the concept a bit wrong....a couple of design features I don't agree with ( he didn't want to use the laser cut plates I offered him , but has chosen to slice the box to create bolt on tabs , for example.....compromising strength in my opinion ) but regardless of whether he has gotten it right , wrong , better , worse , whatever it isn't helping me at all....

I cannot stop anyone buying or making frames for themselves ....I know that.

I am going to look into Product Protection though as I believe my kit builds are unique and could be protected as such...

All I am asking is , please don't buy from this guy ....It could be a false economy for you and I am not going to sell a body on its own anymore to anyone who I suspect might have other ideas or has one of these frames....

SORRY but I have put too much time , money , life decisions etc into this concept to be shafted.....

Charman.tech · #2 19th April 2012, 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by lancelot link

Not going to rant on about being very protective of my 'babies' or bore you all with how hard it is to survive in this industry financially etc etc. but just wanted to give you the heads up on something that has come to my attention recently....

We sold a body to a guy 'up country' who wanted to build his own frame...not a problem.

I took time out to show him a frame , photocopied a picture of one and allowed him to write all the measurements down etc....not a problem - thats what I do...

He even asked about being an Agent , but has told one customer the bodies dont fit , they touch the Herald engine , sit too low at the back etc etc... Not good sales practice and not true....we all know they need tweaking a little but they fit IF you get the frame and positioning right...

The problem has arisen from the customer trawling ebay , I believe , contacting guys selling Herald parts that look like the remains of a Sammio donor and offering them a budget frame for their kit.

From what I understand , he has gotten the concept a bit wrong....a couple of design features I don't agree with ( he didn't want to use the laser cut plates I offered him , but has chosen to slice the box to create bolt on tabs , for example.....compromising strength in my opinion ) but regardless of whether he has gotten it right , wrong , better , worse , whatever it isn't helping me at all....

I cannot stop anyone buying or making frames for themselves ....I know that.

I am going to look into Product Protection though as I believe my kit builds are unique and could be protected as such...

All I am asking is , please don't buy from this guy ....It could be a false economy for you and I am not going to sell a body on its own anymore to anyone who I suspect might have other ideas or has one of these frames....

SORRY but I have put too much time , money , life decisions etc into this concept to be shafted.....

Not good to hear after you took good care of him, I am sure your loyal brethren won't have their heads turned.

I have the same problem sometimes I outline a design for a house or come up with a planning concept and people take my ideas and go off and do it themselves, I will never be able to stop it I just have to weigh up my customers before I let to much info go.

Hope he does not cause you to many problems.

Cracking on with the technical bits of my build and will post an update at the weekend.

All the best

Peter

cbjroms · #3 19th April 2012, 11:03

Gary,

I know this sort of thing is frustrating as it has happened to my business. There are just some people in life who are quite happy to try and make a 'fast buck' on the back of others. The bottom-line is that any idiot can copy something that is already being done but are not likely to be successful at doing it.

But, in my experience, such people have their limitations and tend to be seen-through my most potential customers. Clearly the Sammio community is going to be strong in terms of your brand and pointing-out the pitfalls of immitations.

It is easy to say - but much harder to do, as I am well aware - but my advice would be to try to ignore it and certainly don't let it distract you. An honest competitor acting with integrity would be a threat, this guy seems to me to be no such thing!

Chris

Nick59 · #4 19th April 2012, 15:54

I don`t trust anyone north of Watford!

tlrtone · #5 19th April 2012, 16:16

They say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!

Gary, just keep doing what you are doing, and ignore the twats that can't think of a good idea themselves and have to steal someone elses. It is not always about the product, it is about the service and I am not sure that anyone can beat you on that!

As I have said, you should do a kit price, and don't go down the "agent" route. The value that anyone else can add is how they build the finished cars and the quality /service they can offer. There is no money in the kits to give discounts and then get all the hassle!

Keep the package simple and offer a range of accessories/additions as you do, so we can build our own Sammio, our way.

You are doing a great job, don't let the b******s grind you down!

tlrtone · #6 19th April 2012, 16:27

Above all.....

Mister Towed · #7 19th April 2012, 16:48

Great poster Tony! Love it.

So, how much is this chap asking for a frame? As it's only £300 for the basic frame anyway I can't see there being much margin in selling it any cheaper.

Once you've taken the materials and time to build it into account it'd cost me more than that to make one from scratch myself, and then it probably wouldn't fit. Although, thinking about it, if I made one that did fit I suppose at least you couldn't sue me for breach of copyright as it'd be significantly different to the original...

Before you all send me to Coventry for saying that I'd just like to point out that I put the difficulties fitting the frames down to the poor tolerances that the donor cars were put together with forty plus years ago rather than Mike's dodgy welding. Not that Mike's welding is that dodgy of course...

I think I'll shut up now.

Patton · #8 19th April 2012, 18:43

The way Sammio's are formed trying to short cut it ain't going to work they are a basic and carefully costed (hence popular and lookers to boot) and it's the build where effort cost and finish add up to the pounds. Skippy is the base standard sub £2.5k (just had a spin this evening) then the sky's the limit, also variations on a theme could be developed. SKIPPY 2 with a modified body soon to arrive and a special bonnet soon to be formed (hence yesterdays trip to Poole) it's going to clad a locost frame with zetec power for sprints, hillclimbs and track days let the fun begin I'll be starting a blog and posting piccies here, any who ha! that'll do from me else I'll still be waffling at midnight off to tidy the garage now that Skippy lives outside now.

The 1958 Rocker · #9 19th April 2012, 18:49

Just to add my two pennerth. I was born in StAlbans, and used to live just outside of watford, but now live in sunny Lincolnshire. We are all the same, and as Gary says, you cannot stop people copying something that is really good. The big issue is if it isn't quite right and needs a lot of "modification to fit" when the car is sold in years to come, someone may think "this Sammio car is crap, look at the dogs dinner of a frame!"

keep on smiling, and focus your attention on the Cordite and the rest. Also whats the situation on production V8 Sammio's Ha Ha.

Thanks for a Great Car on behalf of everyone on the forum.

Regards The Rocker
P.S. see you at Stoneleigh

lancelot link · #10 19th April 2012, 19:37

Thanks Chaps ....don't want it to turn into a long drawn out thread , just getting it off my chest.

I spent 6 months about 10 years ago developing a Granada based 1933 Ford kit that I intended to sell alongside the Cortina based 1932 Ford I was already offering .....6 months and a lot of money ....sold a kit to a guy who worked for TVR in Blackpool ...2 months later my employee at the time went to a Northern Hot Rod Swapmeet and there was my 33 being marketed as someone elses ......still pisses me off...

Heres the Coupe I developed .....

Mister Towed · #11 19th April 2012, 20:02

That's nice Gary. Do you still have the moulds? Only I could do with a 'sensible' car to tow the Spyder with when it's raining.

Paul L · #12 19th April 2012, 20:13

What a low life!

Hopefully most people who search for Sammio will find this forum rather than him.

Love your rod.

Very similar to that Factory Five Racing kit I was talking about the other day.

Cheers, Paul.

seanick · #13 19th April 2012, 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by lancelot link

Thanks Chaps ....don't want it to turn into a long drawn out thread , just getting it off my chest.

I spent 6 months about 10 years ago developing a Granada based 1933 Ford kit that I intended to sell alongside the Cortina based 1932 Ford I was already offering .....6 months and a lot of money ....sold a kit to a guy who worked for TVR in Blackpool ...2 months later my employee at the time went to a Northern Hot Rod Swapmeet and there was my 33 being marketed as someone elses ......still pisses me off...

Heres the Coupe I developed .....

Now that is REALLY is one COOL BADASS car. Was it a new chassis with granny running gear? Spose its an IVA job, but well worth it. No No, back to my Cordite/Melos plans

The bloke up north will fizzle out, for sure. If Google cannot find him, few others will.

The 1958 Rocker · #14 19th April 2012, 20:43

Ok sad I know, but I have a lovely painted up ready to fit Ford 100e engine and box in my workshop. Wouldn't that look lovely in there. Not fast, but who cares! how can you pose driving by at 120 mph?

Straight Sixer · #15 20th April 2012, 07:13

I've (mis) spent a lot of time working in engineering Gary, and the frame you make and supply with the kits is great for what it does, but there's no margin for someone to come in and undercut your price. This guy can't make a frame that fits any better than yours, all he can do is make his frame fit one other Herald exactly. The chassis were all different shapes, no two the same, so a build with his frame won't be any easier and if he compromises on quality people will see through him and won't buy.

Len.

phil9 · #16 20th April 2012, 08:02

u have done a great job gary, and have made some dreams come true for a lot of people .. i think i am right in saying that all on this forum are with you as we are all friend s as well.. keep up the fab work u are doing, he is just a hanger on with no skill's of his own

davecymru · #17 20th April 2012, 08:37

I agree with the majority of what all the others have said and my personal take on this is controversially... let him make the frames as long as that is ALL he makes!

At the end of the day it's the body that you need to be protective over as that _is_ the Sammio.

As you've always said, you can supply a frame with a shell or you can buy one separately, or build one yourself. So as long as this guy isn't going to be an "official" reseller with you supplying him bodies, and as long as he doesn't claim that his frames are Sammio "official ones, and as long as he doesn't splash your body then i'd say not to worry about it.

Although..... i realise that is easier said than done, especial when this is your "baby" we're talking about

So from reading your above post it's obvious that you are irked by this, so in order to protect your back if you really wanted you could simply switch to _only_ selling body/frame packages by default and people would have to then really barter to get a shell on it's own. Therefore allowing you to decide if you like/trust them enough first?

chap68 · #18 20th April 2012, 20:10

chap68, hi gary i remember you telling me about him the other day when we were chatting about me becomming a agent what a tosser!! hope this doesnt put any dout in your mind about me? thats so low and as you helped him and nobody can nock you for your helpfullness as you are a top bloke and all will agree with me bud!! i had the same happen to me had a local chap who did mobile dent repairs come and see me last year looking for a job as i was looking for another body showed him my full operation and some inside details and 3 months later he opened a body shop up the rd from me well youve met me aint the biggest but oh shit!! the look of fear coz i took his side door off the hinges and and pinned him to the wall and where i told him i was going to stick his new shinny pro gti spray gun!!!!!!!! he aint a prob coz he been spraying a couple of yrs and i have 30yrs exsperience he soon looked a twat and does very little now turd!! so mate the true genuine ones and worth while ones will be right behind you!! keep up the good work

ps hows my new cordite?!!!!!!! Andy.

lancelot link · #19 22nd April 2012, 10:10

Thought I had better add to this that I have already agreed to sell body only to a couple of guys ...Patton and Phil9 . That still stands as I have no doubts about their plans.

I have had a couple of conversations to guys about being Agents as well and both talked about buying in a volume of kits at a time ....that could work.

The other alternative of course is to buy me out ...£35,000 will secure everything , moulds , jigs , patterns , name , website , goodwill etc. and make me the Southern Area Agent....and probably your best customer as I would probably build 6-10 cars a year for resale !!

ONLY JOKING !!!! ......Or am I ?

The 1958 Rocker · #20 22nd April 2012, 17:38

Ok Gary, phone conversation aside, you work bl**dy hard and long hours for your dream. I for one as you know certainly don't currently have that sort of wedge in my back pocket, but would if I did.

I propose that we all buy a lottery ticket every week as the "Sammio Buy Out Ticket" and hopefully shortly one of us will come up!!!!

If not it could always go to a "Customer Buy Out" Eh?

Only joking, like yourself. ???

Keep it up, cannot wait to see you in two weeks.

Regards Rocker