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Go Back   Madabout Kitcars Forum > Mad Build Area > Dino 246 Builds and Discussion

Dino 246 Builds and Discussion Da da da da daaa daa da da, ohoho Dino

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  #1  
Old 18th August 2013, 19:13
Drsquashdavid Drsquashdavid is offline
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Smile Alfa 166 Lusso engine v6 for DEON

I have just bought a Mirabeau , the Ford 2.9 EFI engine would need rebuild.
Am thinking cosworth BOA engine with the existing RS turbo LSD box (easiest) , am told to think about ST220 engine and box , BUT want to consider a 3.0 litre V6 Lusso engine/box .
My preliminary explorations ( NB I am not mechanically knowledgable), seem to give message bigger job to adapt, higher expense re engine , less reliable engine potenially.

Anybody fitted Alfa V6 ?.
Happy to turn this around :: ie advise me why I really shouldnt persue the Alfa V6 engine !!

The body is coming off the car --eek! At least can get to chassis for mods and strengthening , brake upgrade etc etc etc

Any comments appreciated
best wishes Dave
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  #2  
Old 26th August 2013, 10:33
dino_gt dino_gt is offline
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Hi there;

Alfa engine is great, no question about it. However, Iīd say check the distance between both flanges (between the end of both shafts) to see how close the it is this distance in the alfa running gear to you carīs running gear. This is important, because you would need to modify the driveshafts if thereīs a big difference...

hope this helps.
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  #3  
Old 2nd September 2013, 21:58
colinham colinham is offline
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Hi Dave

Is this the silver one that was on ebay recently if so I was also bidding on it, from the write up on the add the engine had a miss-fire. If I had won the car I would have replaced the engine with the 24valve 2.9 cosworth engine out of a ford scorpio. Same moutings more power so no hastle to fit and the RS box could take the increased power. Stay away from the alfa V6 it can go in the back but the drive shafts end up not horizontal and can cause problems. I know a guy with a Alfa V6 in and he has had nothing but trouble, stay in the ford family of engines.
Colin
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  #4  
Old 3rd September 2013, 10:39
dino_gt dino_gt is offline
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Hi there;

If you fit the alfa engine too low I agree thereīs misalignment in the driveshafts, and can cause problems, however, the reason to lower the engine is not having enough room for it under the engine cover, which I donīt think is a problem in the mirabeau or DGT with bulged engine cover. Another problem could be matching the outter alfa CV joints and the hubs you have. I agree itīs easier to stay in the ford family engines...
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  #5  
Old 3rd September 2013, 18:23
Drsquashdavid Drsquashdavid is offline
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Hi
Thanks to both for replying--

Yes , Colin, it was the silver car on ebay ( sorry!). Glad you still willing to be communcative though !!
The body is nearly ready to be lifted off.

I have sought feedback from several and regarding the engine I think it is , indeed , sensible to stay in the Ford family . I was between the BOA/BOB cosworth , and the Duratec 30 engine and gearbox V6. Another suggestion today:: I now need to explore was to look at Zetec V6 as was told it has a better mid range power band that may suit the car, compared to the Duratec , I dont want excessive power-- but a senisble drivers car that doesnt chew driveshafts.
As always , the more opinions one seeks the more variance in responses . Am happy to have any feedback though .
Thanks for taking time Dave
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  #6  
Old 11th November 2013, 07:24
rossnzwpi rossnzwpi is offline
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hi Dave,
What a great project! How about taking lots of photos and posting them here as a build diary? I For one would love to follow your progress. As for engine options staying with Ford might be logical but , for me anyway, Dinos are all about Italian Temperament and passion. the Alfa V6 has been called one of the best sports engines in the world for good reason! get a good one, treat it well and they are unbreakable - also lots of tuning possibilities. neglect it and the prices to fix might be a bit more than average. probably not as much as the genuine Dino engine I'm trying to put together - if only I could find a few more parts!
Cheers
Ross in NZ
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  #7  
Old 12th November 2013, 00:00
Drsquashdavid Drsquashdavid is offline
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Default -alfa engine

Hi Ross
Glad to hear from you

Have just spent an hour updating in detail---, and message got rejected!!!!!😰😰
This has now become a check message.
Alfa 2.5 V 6 engine being positioned with 2 mounts done .
Previous message mentioned engine/ gearbox positioning,5 stud 5x 108 wheel conversion, suspension widening re- building, suspension droop / travel , driveshaft fitment etc.
Do have photos
Lets see if this is transmitted .
My best wishes
Dave
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  #8  
Old 18th November 2013, 08:10
gagat gagat is offline
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yes great great project!

I agree with Ross, the Alfa V6 is the best choice for a Dino replica!

I'm very very interested in photos too!

Cheers
Michaël
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  #9  
Old 19th January 2014, 04:58
rossnzwpi rossnzwpi is offline
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Hey Dave, how is the Alfa V6 fitment going? I guess you used an Alfa 156 v6 for a track width to suit the Dino but swapped the hubs from an Alfa 166 to match the 5x108mm of the Dino. I've just returned from the New Zealand Ferrari Owners club festival. Hours sitting in the sun watching 3 formula one ferraris racing and a cavalcade of 100 cars, including four Dinos. The Enzo, F50s, F40, 250GTO, Daytonas, etc etc were just too much to take in. I'd be interested to see how you have made your suspension and how the geometry works. All the he's,
Ross in NZ
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  #10  
Old 19th January 2014, 17:50
Drsquashdavid Drsquashdavid is offline
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Default Alfa engine in Deon Mirabeau

Hi Ross
Really good to hear from you. Been on my list to reply. As you may guess I am a forum novice, ( and slowly learning from a low starting point - cars)
I can't load photos from i- pad onto forum. Guide me if you can and I will post.

Regarding the engine:
I have. " mule" engine in- situ, had to modify mounts and brace struts. Seems ( hopefully) right height in bay. Was from a 156. , driveshafts and CV ok,had to shorted near side driveshaft only - by 35 mm. Yes you right in I have used 166 hubs for 5x108 PCD. Splines same 156 and 166. Still using original Lancia uprights, had to lathe a bevel inner CV to fit inside. Machined spacers around bearings. Only just got some bits done so should try first assembly during next month.
I have bought a 166 with 42 k miles I am running for a couple of months. All my measurements for the 2.5 V6 of 156 and 166 suggest they the same. I want to put in an engine I have run and tested.

I am going to post other bits on suspension, wheels (5 stud conversion), chassis footwell widening under separate threads.

Keep in touch and an update on yours please
Best wishes
David
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  #11  
Old 5th May 2014, 22:42
JARED_NOMAK JARED_NOMAK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colinham View Post
Hi Dave

Is this the silver one that was on ebay recently if so I was also bidding on it, from the write up on the add the engine had a miss-fire. If I had won the car I would have replaced the engine with the 24valve 2.9 cosworth engine out of a ford scorpio. Same moutings more power so no hastle to fit and the RS box could take the increased power. Stay away from the alfa V6 it can go in the back but the drive shafts end up not horizontal and can cause problems. I know a guy with a Alfa V6 in and he has had nothing but trouble, stay in the ford family of engines.
Colin

The 2.9 Cosworth v6 and rs turbo gearbox are not a good match at all. I had this engine in P613FDV and it ate 3 gear boxes and broke a driveshaft and stripped a clutch plate, too much torque. You want a Ford Deon did plan to produce the 2.0 Turbo Cosworth engine with a rs2000 gearbox and these were going to be for the export market.

Stick with an engine and gearbox that are suppose to be mounted together.

Ross
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  #12  
Old 6th May 2014, 06:26
Drsquashdavid Drsquashdavid is offline
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Default Alfa engine in Deon Mirabeau

Hi Ross/ Colin
Just a quickie on this:

Went to Stoneleigh, saw a CR/ Deon (?) coupe with Alfa engine. Owner had had many problems as alluded to by Colin, eventually changing engine position by re- designing subframe. The driveshafts were still not achieving near horizontal.

I think it must be the engine canopy bulge of the Mirabeau that has allowed me to raise the engine by approximately 1.5-2 inches in comparison to the coupe.
I have managed to get shafts close to horizontal ( anticipated when suspension loaded)

Talking to above owner ,he had suggested he thought some of the problems might also have been lack of upper engine mount/ stabiliser.

I accept " only time will tell", "the proof .............."!!

No regrets so far choosing Alfa engine and gearbox???!!!

Dave
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  #13  
Old 7th May 2014, 18:30
dino_gt dino_gt is offline
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Hello to all;

Just to add a bit more info: the DEONs/CRs have their rear end lower than an original Dino (droopy), one of several bodyshells faults, which, in this case, is the worst of all because it involves less space for the upper engine.(mechanical issue/driveshafts inclination).
Another thing to optimise what you have is change the plenum chamber position by enlarging the alfa engine intake runners so that the plenum is located lower and further forward or backwards (depending whatīs best for you) and this gives you more room to lift the engine a bit more...

hope this helps.

regards.
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  #14  
Old 15th May 2014, 17:49
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Default drive shafts

Hi all

Bit late to this thread but here is my 2 pennies worth.
I know in an ideal world we would all like our drive shafts horizontal.But in every day use this is not the case. Stick the shopping in the boot/stick the kids in the back etc-etc.The car when being used moves up and down.This is why suspension is fitted to cars.To over come this movement the constant velocity joint was invented. If you look at your drive shafts you will have an inner and an outer cv joint to overcome the up/down movement of the suspension.
Also the very nature of our desire to put different engines in to our kits will no doubt result in a not ideal set up.
As to engines, the alfa v6 is a great looking piece of kit. But typical Italian build.All show but no-go. My mate has one actually in an alfa believe it or not! When it runs it is really good. But that's when it runs. Most of the time it's in the garage being repaired. The last time it was there it cost over Ģ2000 to repair. Not cheap.
As to the ford 2.9 cosworth, this is virtually bomb proof if you stick to scheduled services. This is my engine choice and I've mated it to a rs2000 gearbox with lsd. Drive shafts supplied by a company that supplies F1 teams no less.
Elsewhere someone has said this is a bad combination having broke 3 gearboxes one clutch and a drive shaft.
I know guys who have ford escort rs cars with upwards of 300 bhp with these gear boxes and have no problems with the uprated power. As to drive shafts they can break on modern cars so that could just be bad luck.With the clutch, buy as I did,an uprated clutch kit.
But then again which ever way you go some one some where with moan about it.You have just got to do what you think is right.Good luck.
ian
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  #15  
Old 16th May 2014, 09:39
dino_gt dino_gt is offline
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more about this: agree on driveshaft inclination doesnīt have to be completely horizontal. think about a car being lowered, this affects as well. (drifting cars, etc.) Another thing to have in mind is the suspension travel (bump or compression travel). Most sports cars have shorter suspension travel, which reduces the angle that the driveshaft is going to have, as the bump travel is shorter. An alfa 166/164 has a way much longer suspension travel because itīs a saloon and weighs much more. Itīs all a matter of design/assembling all the parts together and checking that the driveshafts are going to be in a "sweet spot" most of the time, according to your suspension travel which also depends on the spring rates you have. At the end of the day you donīt want the CV joints to be working in a forced position and avoid them to reach the limit.

hope this helps.
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