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Engine options for a Cabrio rebuild

20 Aug 2011, 8:02am
Hello all - I've lurked around this forum on and off for a while now and have finally joined.

I took delivery of a Cabrio kit in April '92 and got the car on the road in January '94. I stuck with the 1600 Pinto from the donor Sierra but always hankered after something more powerful. The car was everyday transport for 4 years but has been garaged since early '98. Time flies, hairlines recede...

I started a complete rebuild last year and the intention was to replace the Pinto with a 2.0 silvertop Zetec that I kept from a Mondeo I scrapped a couple of years ago, RWD conversion and mating to a Ford Type 9 gearbox being a straightforward enough process.

I'm now considering using a BMW engine instead and that's where I would appreciate some advice. I can see from cabrio_simon's wonderful Flickr site that an M20-powered Cabrio is possible but I'm not sure what engine to go for myself.

There's lots of useful information around but I've seen conflicting advice - some say stick with pre-M52 to avoid immobiliser problems while others say the problems don't exist providing you've got all the right bits for the later engine.

Can anyone give me any info on physical engine dimensions? I haven't been able to find any. How do M20, M50->M54 compare in length, width and height?

Let's assume an M54 would physically fit. What problems might I face just getting the engine running in my Cabrio (taking as read that I've got work on the fuel delivery side to sort whether I go Zetec or BMW)? How much of the donor car does the engine management system expect to be present? E.g. (and I'm guessing wildly here...) would it expect:

  • bits of the instrument cluster?
  • to be fitted to an exhaust system containing a cat with various associated sensors?


(Given the age of my Cabrio I believe I won't need one and will just be subject to a visual smoke test for MOT.)
ke test for MOT.)

Comments and advice gratefully received!
20 Aug 2011, 6:06pm
Hmm... don't know how I missed this thread. It's not much more than a year old and the M54 is notably absent.
20 Aug 2011, 6:35pm
Hi, welcome to the forum :) I would also take a look here too: http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3056

My daily has an M54 which now her 110k on it and besides the CCV looking like it's clogging up it's to pretty well (something easy to sort with the engine out!).

Fitting an M5X engine in a sportster can be a bit tight on the intake side, not sure on the cabrio. The engine sits several degrees further over than the M20 and the intake is a different design.

I'd do some research into EWS which is biggest issue with using the newer engines. It's an immobiliser system which links a chip in the key with the ECU (and I think something in the instrument cluster). So you either need all the black boxes wired in that make it work or a modification on the ECU to disable the EWS system.

The other issue that comes up with M5X engines in VANOS however personally I think this is overblown on the web, when they rattle is normally the rubber seals. BMW won't sell just the seals but there's a company in the US that sells the parts: http://www.beisansystems.com/

M20 is simpler on the electrics but has less power and more consumption in comparison. It's easier to tweak and is a solid engine. I think I'd still opt for a newer engine these days but you need to be happy to deal with the electrical side.
20 Aug 2011, 7:55pm
Hi and another welcome!

Simon built a beautiful Cabrio with an M20 engine option.
I think you say you've seen his build site.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marlin_bmw_cabrio/

Mike is building a Cabrio with an M50 engine and his progress cab be found here...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mikes_bmw_marlin_cabrio/

The M20 electronics are easy. I think the M50 electronics are manageable but I bought an M52 engine and spent months studying the electronics and eventually gave up. Timbo built the only M52 based Sportster and has a great deal of trouble.

My recommendation would be a low mileage M50B25 if you can find one.

Happy building...
21 Aug 2011, 9:29am
Thanks for the welcome, gents :thumb:

And thanks for the links - Mike's BMW Cabrio site is another great resource. I see he had to chop 75mm out of the inlet manifold to reduce its width sufficiently to get everything under the Cabrio bonnet, and that the engine is mounted slightly off centre too.

From what I can tell from photos on the web, the M52 and M54 look similar in terms of installation angle and inlet manifold size. Does anyone know if that's true?

The electrical/electronic side of things per se doesn't put me off - microcontroller-based electronics is a hobby and I had planned to go with a self-build Megasquirt for the Zetec.

I found a document describing various revisions of EWS and it does appear there's a fair amount of complexity. It seems reasonable to think that as long as all the requisite bits are transferred over things should work but given others' experiences the devil is presumably in the detail.

Peter, do you recall any particular problems you had with the M52?

What would be considered low mileage? I'd guess that low mileage older engines are becoming rare these days. And if ebay's anything to go by, older-engined full stop are much rarer than M52/M54-engined ones.

It's never easy - but that's half the fun :)
21 Aug 2011, 9:38am
Low mileage - anything less than 50k imo. My M20 had 114k on it (probably more...) and the bottom end was like new, the head was starting to show signs of age it runs just fine now.

M52/4 are pretty much the same physically on the outside.
21 Aug 2011, 10:04am
Hi Mash :-)

The main problem was that I bought an engine (off ebay) that had most of the ECU, etc but not a complete set of electronics.
If you really want to go down this route, my advice is to buy a complete car and remove all the loom, ECU, EWS, and a whole variety of other parts like the dashboard, clutch switches, sensors, etc.

I couldn't find anyone who would build an ECU with the security bypassed.

I'm sure it can be done, but....

Here is a sample of the description from the BMW training manual for their technicians

EWS III (3.3)
EWS III (3.3) is installed in the 1998 E38 from 5/97 production, in the 1998 E39 from 9/97
production, in the E46 beginning of production, in the E52 and E53 beginning of production.
Purpose of the System
The purpose of the EWS III (3.3) system is to add greater theft protection by providing a
higher level of sophistication than previous systems. The new “Rolling Code” provides an
additional theft deterrent through a changing of the ISN everytime the vehicle enters the
start sequence.
Components changed in the EWS III (3.3) system include:
• EWS III (3.3) Control Module.
• DME Control Module.
• Transmission Range Selection Input.
System Components
EWS III (3.3) Control Module
The EWS III (3.3) Control Module uses the same 13 pin connector as EWS III (3.2) but functions
differently. The EWS III (3.3) module has a “Rolling Code” ISN assigned to it during
manufacture. The “Rolling Code” is burned into
the module and cannot be overwritten by ZCS
Coding or DME alignment procedures.
The “Rolling Code” is a one way signal from the
EWS III (3.3) control module to the DME and is
similar in operation to the data exchange
between the EWS control module and the key
transponder.
The “Rolling Code” will be different each time the
start operation is begun. The “Codes” are taken
from the “Rolling Code Table” which is assigned
at the factory to the EWS III (3.3) control module
and the DME.
Workshop Hint:
While it is possible to initialize a key to another
vehicle to check for remote operation, use caution.
All keys for Both vehicles must be available.
The initializing process, causes loss of
operation of keys previously initialized.
All keys must be initialized at the same time.
DME Control Module
The DME Control Module has changed in that it is not the source of the ISN but now only
stores the “Rolling Code”. It compares the “Codes” to those sent to it by the EWS III (3.3)
control module. The “Rolling Code Table” assigned to the DME must match the table in the
EWS III (3.3) module. The “Rolling Code Table is “burned” into the DME during the programming
of the DME and cannot be change once “burned”.
Transmission Range Selection Input
With the introduction of the SKE type connectors on Transmission Control Modules the
direct input from the Transmission Range Selector Switch is eliminated. The input for range
selection is now received from the AGS Control Module.
On manual transmission vehicles clutch status is input directly into the DME.
Principle of Operation
The starting sequence of the EWS III (3.3) is as follows:
(Same as EWS III (3.2)
• The key is inserted into the lock cylinder and switched “ON”. The EWS III (3.3) control
module is powered through KL R and sends a 125kHz AM signal to the ring antenna.
The AM signal induces voltage in the key coil and powers up the transponder.
• Powered up, the key transponder sends the key identification code to the EWS III (3.3)
module. The EWS III (3.3) module verifies the key identification code and checks to see
if the key is enabled. If the key is correct and enabled, a password is sent to the
transponder over the 125kHz AM signal through the ring antenna.
• When the transponders accepts the password, it releases the changing code which it
received from the EWS III (3.3) module during the last start-up operation to the EWS III
(3.3) module via the ring antenna.
• The EWS III (3.3) module compares the changing code received from the transponder
with the code stored in its memory and if they match the process is allowed to continue.
The EWS III (3.3) module looks at the other inputs for correct status (e.g. Code function
not active, Transmission in P or N or clutch depressed, engine speed below specified
RPM) and energizes the the internal relay to begin starter operation.
New to EWS III (3.3)
• While energizing the internal starter relay, the EWS III (3.3) module calculates a stored
code from the “Rolling Code Table” and sends the calculated results to the DME.
• On receipt of the “Rolling Code” from the EWS III (3.3) the DME calculates it’s own
stored code and compares its results with the code it received from the EWS III (3.3).
If the “Codes” match the drive away protection is released and injection and ignition
are enabled and the engine starts.
If the “Codes” do NOT match, the DME “rolls forward” to the next code according
to the “Rolling Code Table” and makes the same calculations. The DME continues
this “forward roll” up to a maximum of 200 times or until a match is found. Failure
to find a match will result in the engine cranking but not starting.
• When the ignition is switched off and no engine RPM is present in both the DME and
the EWS III (3.3) control module each module will automatically “roll forward” to the next
predetermined code based on the “Rolling Code Table”. This new code is used for the
next starting sequence.

PM me if you want a complete copy of the training module, with diagrams... :wink:
21 Aug 2011, 1:07pm
A word of caution / advice. If you are sourcing a replacement engine you will have to be able to provide evidence to the DVLA to prove where it came from in order to have the V5 updated at DVLA.

They have really tightened up on engine swaps, it is almost impossible to get them to accept an engine unless you can prove the source and provide supporting information on a garage letter head or from an engineers report which provides the exact CC, year of manufacture, engine number and fuel type.

You have to provide original documents, they won't accept photo copies.

I upgraded the engine in my Cabrio to BMW M20, I bought the engine through a BMW salvage company in Sheffield. I sent the V5 off with the BMW engine purchase receipt but they said it was unacceptable as it did not show the details they required. Fourtunatly for me the BMW salvage agreed to generate a new receipt of purchase with all the required info.

It still took me 3 months of letters and phone calls to get an updated V5. During this time I couldn't tax the car because, they won't release the original V5 back to you once you have notified the engine change so unless you can provide the evidence for the new engine you are stuffed because you can't tax or insure the car.

Fore warned is for armed.

John
21 Aug 2011, 1:59pm
Thanks for the warning re. DVLA, John. That's another reason to source an entire car, complete with V5.

Mark.
21 Aug 2011, 8:25pm
An M50 < 50k miles is likely to be rare? So, for the sake of argument, a well-maintained M5x with 100k on the clock is likely to need nothing doing to the bottom end but may benefit from having the head checked, valves and seats re-ground, seals replaced etc.?
21 Aug 2011, 8:33pm
My daily has 110k on it now M54B22 can't say I've had any issues with it. I can't hurt to:

Change rocker cover seals
Replace CCV/CVV (crank case ventilation valve) - this get bunged up
MAF can go after 100k
Check the dual mass flywheel and clutch these can be quite worn depending on how it was treated
I'd be tempted to replace the VANOS seals while you've got the rocker off.
I've needed to replace the exhaust side cam sensor around 80k.
Oh yeah I've been running on LPG for the last 40k as well.

Can't think of anything else I need to do, not opened it ups so I can't comment on the state of the head, other than it runs a smoothly now as it did when it was new.
22 Aug 2011, 5:32pm
Hi Mashtun, may I offer my belated welcome too..........I've just returned from holiday.

I bought my Cabrio with the intention of fitting the BMW M50 engine from the outset. I had researched the BMW engine options thoroughly before placing my order with Marlin. Every BMW specialist breaker I spoke to told me to avoid post M52 engines unless I was prepared to use the entire BMW loom, and that includes door locks as well as the instrument binnacles from what I understand. Also the M52 2.8 only has the same power output as the M50 2.5. It was all to do with new emission legislation and torque at low revs (the M52 has smaller inlet manifold tubes than the M50, and spacial inlet valves to improve low rev air flows); so I took the view that there was all pain but no gain.
The M20 is possibly easier to install, and 5 years ago, when I bought my M50, would have been cheaper, but I wanted a more up to date engine in terms of remaining life, and running costs (=consumption). By staying with a pre August 95 engine it does not have to have a CAT fitted either (note the necessity fior a CAT is based on the engine age not the car age, but as Cabrioman has stated you will have to get proof of age - this is reasonably straight forward with a BMW as you can get a letter from BMW GB confirming the year of manufacture based on the engine serial number).
I even considered the idea of an M54 engine but using the M50 electronics on it: however, this is not possible as the M54 has dual vanos, which the M52 electronics does not cover. So, however I looked at it, I just kept coming back to the M50 for my limited electrical capabilities. I then took quite a while to find a crash damaged 325i with 67,000 miles on it, and heard it running in the car before I bought it. In my experience they often rattle, and many have an oil leak from the head above number one cylinder.

Marlin built a demonstrator with an M50 (Danny Nelson can tell you who currently owns it), and Chris Cunliffe has built his own M50 Cabrio based on it: both cut the inlet manifold in order to fit it in, and I have done the same.
You can see on my flickr site there is only 10mm of clearance at each end of the engine for the M50, and that is with the radiator pushed as far forward inside the nose cone as possible. I know Simon Gregory and Peter Morris both modified their bulkheads marginally to fit the M20. I suspect, but certainly do not know, that you can fit the M52/M54 as they are very similar to the M50 single vanos, which I have fitted.
I have driven Chris Cunliffe's Cabrio and think it is really nice - I just like 6 cylinder engines: V8s sound good, but the ubiquitous Rover lacks power (150bhp as standard, compared to the M50 at 192bhp straight out the box), and is nowhere near as fuel efficient.
I have not wired my M50 yet, and have to admit the wiring is one part of the build I do not have confidence with, so plan to do the basics myself (lights, etc), but then get a BMW auto electrician to marry the Ford Sierra loom to the BMW engine loom, which he keeps telling me is relatively straight forward.
I'll let you know how I get on soon as I am almost at the point where I can not put off the electrics any longer!!

I note you live near Livingstone, so I am a long way off in South Lincs (Grantham), but if you are ever travelling South down the A1 you very welcome to have a closer look at what I have done.

My advice would be take your time to research your options well.

Good luck, and keep us all informed if you choose to go down the BMW route.
Mike
22 Aug 2011, 8:12pm
Other difference between M52 and M54 is that the M54 is fly by wire so you need to install a throttle pedal with potentiometer rather than the standard cable to the throttle body.
23 Aug 2011, 7:34pm
Thanks for the further info, Patrick. It seems "fly by wire" is a good way to describe the M54 engine.

And thanks, Mike, for adding your welcome and explaining the thinking behind your decision to go with an M50, and for the offer to come and see what you've done with your build. I don't travel the A1 as much as I did at one time but it's not unheard of and I'll certainly drop by if the opportunity arises.

What's BMW's attitude likely to be to moving an EWS-equipped engine to another vehicle? Let's say a transplant is initially successful but some core part of the system fails later - the DME or EWS, say. The EWS is VIN-specific, and the DME must be programmed for the vehicle in which it's fitted - I doubt BMW would supply a new EWS module if the original BMW has been declared scrapped, or program the EWS now in a Marlin to accept a new DME? I guess that would mean sourcing a set of matching components from a similar vehicle to the donor?

I think "all pain but no gain" seems fair comment :ohwell:
26 Aug 2011, 10:22pm
Hi Mark
I have an M52 engine and have experienced considerable difficulties.
BMW dealerships won't touch it in my experience because its 'non-standard' BMW wiring so I wouldn't waste your time there.
Other 'experts' have encountered other problems - my Sportster has been off-road for 18 months (to date) trying to get a permanent fix. The temporary fix was to get a new matching ECU, EWS and key from Ebay at about 150 quid a shot, but it only gave me about 50 starts before it packed up.
Happy to provide further details if required.
Regards
Tim
Maybe you will have better luck but my advice would be to go for an earlier engine if possible.
1 Sep 2011, 8:10pm
Hi Tim,

sorry for the delay in responding - I've been banned from my PC while on holiday :icon_cry:

Thanks very much for your comments. I'd certainly be interested to hear details if it doesn't depress you too much to provide them. It's not encouraging to hear that even after getting an engine running it's not guaranteed that it'll continue to run thereafter.

Mark.
2 Sep 2011, 8:17am
Hi Mark
Probably one of the main reasons behind my problems were because I had the engine supplied by Marlin which they obtained from a breakers yard. This had only the bare bones of the wiring harness and it soon became a total nightmare to work out where the jungle of wires had come from or were going to.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/33105452@N05/3163862902/in/set-72157612162369152/

After 3 months of work on it, I had it to a point where the engine started.
Only to discover that after about 50 starts the EWS somehow lost sync ie the rolling code mentioned by Peter with the DME (ECU). As I said, a temporary fix worked by replacing the three key components - a matching ECU, EWS and key from Ebay at about 150 quid a time. But it still failed after just a few starts.
Peter thought he had found the solution - it needed the ECU to speak to the EWS through the instrument cluster. So I wired in an instrument cluster (which did just about fit under the passenger side dashboard!) and a diagnostic plug for good measure. However, the same problem recurred.
So I took it to this guy in Caerphilly who re-programmed everything so that their numbers corresponded, but still no joy - I wonder if he remembered to charge the battery after all this time :)
So we are now on to plan B - a total re-wire using a somewhat more comprehensive wiring harness from another donor. Whether that will meet with success only time will tell - he has only just started it and needs to do a fairly big job on it. Current experience of his rate of work on it would suggest I will be waiting til Christmas. I can't say which year though.
So it may be the case that if you have the original donor you can take enough of the wiring loom out of it to get it connected properly, but that is not a certainty. Hence my suggestion to go for an earlier engine!
Hope this helps.
Tim
7 Sep 2011, 11:36am
Hi Tim,

thanks for the details. Weren't Marlin able/willing to help (given they'd supplied the engine)?

Until you mentioned the loss of sync after 50 or so starts I'd thought that starting with a complete donor might be the way to approach this - start disconnecting things, checking the engine would still start and run and (somehow) getting it back to a running state without necessarily reconnecting the last thing disconnected e.g. faking a 'doors not double-locked' condition might be as simple as disconnecting the door locks and grounding an input to the relevant module.

On the other hand I could always leave everything attached, fit a towbar and stick everything that won't fit inside the Cabrio into a trailer :icon_smile:

I suppose that far fewer Sportsters are built than there are non-EWS-equipped donors around, and that will continue to be the case for a while. But is Marlin looking beyond that to a time when EWS-equipped donors will dominate? I don't know the relative numbers so maybe it's not worth them worrying about.

Mark.
8 Sep 2011, 10:32am
mashtun wrote:
Hi Tim,

thanks for the details. Weren't Marlin able/willing to help (given they'd supplied the engine)?




I suppose that far fewer Sportsters are built than there are non-EWS-equipped donors around, and that will continue to be the case for a while. But is Marlin looking beyond that to a time when EWS-equipped donors will dominate? I don't know the relative numbers so maybe it's not worth them worrying about.

Mark.


You haven't worked Marlin out yet...........................

Their only interest these days rests with the 5Exi, and racing.
8 Sep 2011, 10:47am
Mike wrote:
You haven't worked Marlin out yet...........................

Their only interest these days rests with the 5Exi, and racing.


Ah. What a shame.
12 Sep 2011, 6:14am
Is there not a standalone ECU that supports the later BMW engines yet?

Even throttle bodies like the Zetec conversions??? Help with the intake size etc.
12 Sep 2011, 7:09am
peterux wrote:
You could try the GKD owners forum as some of their builders are seriously into the later BMW M52 engines.


Funnily enough I 'discovered' GKD last week in a post on PistonHeads and have since read a few build blogs. The dash for the Legend is designed to take the BMW instrument cluster (which I thought might therefore be crucial) but I read of one builder who's using individual aftermarket instruments. Definitely worth following up...

limpabit wrote:
Is there not a standalone ECU that supports the later BMW engines yet?

Even throttle bodies like the Zetec conversions??? Help with the intake size etc.


I've seen posts that say the aftermarket ECUs don't handle double VANOS but I'm still quite ignorant of that side of things, and the posts I saw could well be out of date now (or plain wrong...).

One reason for not going with the Zetec that I have is that I think it'll be tight for ITBs - but the BMW engines do lean over so there would be correspondingly more room on the inlet side.

My Cabrio's currently totally dismantled - I think I need to get back to a rolling chassis and have a measure up, see how the Zetec looks. If it fits then I can build a BMW-engined GKD Legend - "What do you mean we don't need two kitcars, dear?" :wink:
12 Sep 2011, 8:10am
mashtun wrote:
Funnily enough I 'discovered' GKD last week in a post on PistonHeads and have since read a few build blogs. The dash for the Legend is designed to take the BMW instrument cluster (which I thought might therefore be crucial) but I read of one builder who's using individual aftermarket instruments. Definitely worth following up...



I've seen posts that say the aftermarket ECUs don't handle double VANOS but I'm still quite ignorant of that side of things, and the posts I saw could well be out of date now (or plain wrong...).

One reason for not going with the Zetec that I have is that I think it'll be tight for ITBs - but the BMW engines do lean over so there would be correspondingly more room on the inlet side.

My Cabrio's currently totally dismantled - I think I need to get back to a rolling chassis and have a measure up, see how the Zetec looks. If it fits then I can build a BMW-engined GKD Legend - "What do you mean we don't need two kitcars, dear?" :wink:


Why do you want to go with the M52?
The inlet manifold on it was reduced in bore size to improve low level torque: this was at the expenses of top end power, so they had to increase the capacity to 2.8 to get the same power output as the M50 2.5.
The BMW boy racers will pay £100 for a standard M50 inlet manifold to then slightly modify to fit on to their M52 2.8 to get improved airflow at higher revs, as a very cheap power upgrade.
The only advantage the M52 offers is a later manufacture date, and the assumption that they will have done less miles. If you look for a good M50 they are well capable of 150-200k miles.
Also if you go for the later M52 you will have to fit a CAT, whereas the M50 does not require it for IVA.
Sorry, I just don't see the benefit in going for the M52, given all the attendant problems with what we know about EWS and from Tim and Peter's hard won experience.
12 Sep 2011, 8:36am
Mike wrote:
Why do you want to go with the M52?


I don't - it's the fact they've clearly achieved success with EWS-equipped engines that's of interest. The donor requirements page says any E36/E46 engine - which presumably includes the M54 (a question to be asked...).

Mike wrote:
Also if you go for the later M52 you will have to fit a CAT, whereas the M50 does not require it for IVA.


I don't have to go through IVA - my Cabrio has a V5 issued in 1994. My reading of the MOT docs is that regardless of what I do engine-wise I'll be subject only to a visual check on the exhaust - no emissions checks at all. It's on my 'todo' list to verify that this does indeed still apply if I fit a CAT-era engine.

Mike wrote:
Sorry, I just don't see the benefit in going for the M52, given all the attendant problems with what we know about EWS and from Tim and Peter's hard won experience.


Don't worry - your comments about the M52 are noted :icon_smile: