MadaboutKitcars

and all without having to go outside in the snow

http://www.flickr.com/photos/58068042@N07/



Took about two hours of head scratching, to me, to you, left hand down a bit etc but was essentially straight forward. I suggest the following to make it as easy as possible

- get a second person to help. you can do it on your own but the second set of eyes and hands is invaluable
- take the brake servo out, it's just plain in the way
- hack the bottom off the oil filter housing before you start. The engine isn't going in with it stock.
- lose the steering extension rod thingy.
- balance the engine and gear box on the crane so that the front is a bit higher than the gearbox
- approach the engine bay head on but slightly to the O/S of the centre line
- only lift the engine as high as you need to get the minimal clearance on the radiator brackets or you'll have trouble getting the gearbox to go down the tunnel

I've got 2 main problems to sort out
- the new style gearbox mount main U shaped cross member is about 2" to short and doesn't even touch the tunnel sides so the gearbox is currently sitting on a trolley jack
- The nearside of the gearbox fouls on the tunnel. I think the easiest way to solve this is with thinner engine mounts that will lower eveything by about 1/2"



it also appears the there is way more clearance at the back of the engine than necessary, at least an inch between the head and firewall bulkhead. if the engine could move back a bit this would help with the squeeze up front when it comes time to put the rad in but more importantly the gearbox mount would then probably fit the gap it needs to.



Have any of the other M50 builders who recently installed their engines either seen this issues or (hopefully) have a quick solution before I start hacking and grinding my way around them?

[EDIT] Having had a look at Nigel's photos I can see that his engine slopes down at the rear (or at least that's how it appears). When I drop the box down at the rear by about an inch I gain a few mm of clearance between the box and tunnel wall so I'm now convinced that the new gearbox mount is just plain wrong. with the other problems I've had getting it to fit the box I think I'll ask marlin to swap for an old style one. I've got the week off so I'll give Mark a call to see what he thinks. I think to let me carry on working and get the car back up on stands I'll rig something up without the doughnut and using a bit of box section to bridge the tunnel. not ideal for a final solution as there'll be no give at all but it will help me get on with other things

Ian

May sound stupid, but check you have your engine mounts as far forward as they can be fitted on your engine. There is a further pair of threaded holes you can use on the offside. This mount needs moving forward, and most of your problems will disappear.

I think I had exactly the same problem when I first tried (it was a long time ago), because you are trying to use the original mounting holes, and they are not the ones used in the Marlin set up.



Mike

Hi Mike, yep just saw your comments on flickr and I had had that thought myself though they seemed too far forward the other way. I'll have a play tomorrow. I think Nigel has his engine set up the same as me so it may be of interest to him too. I was basing my understanding that the engine should sit a little twisted in the chassis based on his pics but as I think he has a different gearbox (getrag not my later retro fit ZF) the fouling may not have happened. hmmm, at least I know how to get the engine in and out now so a quick change around will be pretty straight forward

[EDIT] I've had a quick look and the block mount point nearer the front is a further 9cm away where as the gap at the back of the head is only about 4cm so moving to it is not an option as the engine won't have room to swing backwards far enough. Not only that but this would also have the effect of swinging the back half of the engine further to the N/S i.e harder against the tunnel where as what really needs to happen is the front swing to the O/S. The mount points on the N/S of the block definitely don't seem to offer any alternatives to the current set up. I wonder if the cabrio has taken account of the alternative but the sportster is designed with my setup in mind. don't know but I don't think there are any alternatives for me

Great news, you've got the engine and gearbox mated and in the car. I think just a bit of tweaking and you won't have any problems.

Try dropping down a bit the back end of the gearbox. The engine will move back at the top and I think the gearbox will then clear the tunnel OK.

It's a bit trial and error but this was the position I ended up with....


Underside shot by marlinpeter, on Flickr

A scissor jack is ideal for winding it up and down to find the right position.

So the maybe the new Marlin gearbox mounting plate is designed for the M3 gearboxes??

And this is Rob's car for reference....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/60309813@N07/6433118979/

Ian,
Congratulations. It's taking shape nicely.
It looks identical to mine in terms of angles and clearance. I think your comments about my engine sloping backwards may be from the early days when the gearbox mount was not fitted and was held off the ground with a bit of rope. The clearance between the block and the bulkhead at that stage was minimal. I then fitted the gearbox mount inside the tunnel but there was no guide as to how high in the tunnel it should be fitted. There was loads of clearance between the block and the bulkhead but very little around the gearbox. The mount turned out to be too high and I have now reset it and have a very similar clearance between engine and bulk head as you. However, like you, the gearbox mount was too short to straddle the transmission tunnel and I have fitted a 6mm spacer plate between the bracket and the tunnel sides.


Gearbox mount by MarlinBuild, on Flickr

Mikes comments are interesting. Like you the two additional holes in the block that Mike mentions are about 3" forward of the ones I've used and would not be suitable. As it is, with the metro servo fitted, I have had to relieve the rear corner of the black plastic engine cover slightly to provide sufficient clearance so I wouldn't want the engine any further back.
But the position certainly limits the space at the front of the engine. It means that I will have to use a pusher fan in front of the radiator which is less efficient and is a bit of a concern given some of the comments about cooling difficulties elsewhere in this forum.

Hi Ian

You may be right, but I still think it is worth a go. Moving the engine mount position 90mm will not move the engine at the back 90mm.
Whilst trying to make mine fit, and there is a lot less room in a Cabrio, I moved my engine around, and even drilled new holes for the engine mount fixings in the chassis stubs, only to find after hours of struggling that the best location was actually exactly as Marlin had designed it. But my offside mounts are definitely in the front 4 of the 6 holes.
Mike
PS
Andrew Curtis has an M50 in a Sportster so could be worth having a quick chat (I can PM you his mobile if you wish?): so has Rob Dorey?

Pusher Fan Mounting

If you do use a pusher fan try and get one that has the motor mounted on the frame i.e.away from the rad core. My series 2000 Kenlowe had the motor right against the core therby blocking a significant part of the airflow. I remounted it on brackets to leave a 10mm gap and then re-established the outer rim seal with some rigid black plastic (large plant pot from B&Q) screwed around the outer edge. I also made a ram air box behind the grille from thin ally, touching the core with a rubber seal strip, to stop any air going around the rad. Peter

Ian
My Cabrio had just the same issues as yourself, with it apparently fouling the bulkhead on the nearside.



If you drop your gearbox at the back, and move the offside engine mount forward, I still believe you will find your solution.

Mike

Mounts

Hi there, I just looked at your pictures and mine, I have the m50 non vanos in the sportster. Looking at the pictures, I have the mounts in the same holes as you have, and the engine does squeeze in giving only about 1-1.5 cm clearance of the gearbox to the nearside bulkhead, but does so without fouling.The best way of fitting is to have the engine in, with gearbox supported on trolley Jack,move this from side to side, and up and down to get the small clearance you need on the nearside...it is a small clearance...this is mad easier if your engine mount holes and mount holes on the chassis are slightly oversized if needed to allow figment.The engine looks as if it runs off centre line from the crank pulley at the front..don't worry that is right, and the angle of your gearbox and prop will fall into line also...hope this helps.

I'm going to have a play around today and see what's what.

Looking at Peter's photo I can see his gearbox is even lower than I've currently tried so I'll see if that helps. as long as I can get about 4mm clearance between the box and the tunnel I'll be happy. I think my gearbox is actually the same as the M3 (pretty sure 328 and M3 shared same box). Remember too that I've got the special gearbox mount untested by anyone else (including Marlin?). It's that bar on the bottom that is an inch too short both ends to bridge the tunnel and to get the box down to the same height as every one else I'll have to loose the doughnut too.




I still can't actually see any real reason why the engine needs to be twisted as there's plenty of room on the O/S front for it to be straight, even with the brake servo installed. The fact that Mark insisted that the alternator didn't need to be moved (and I saw this with my own eyes on the M3 car he was building) makes me wonder if their new demo car has slightly different mounts to pull it over straight.

Mike, I tend to agree with Nigel that to use the front set of screw holes it will want to pivot even further against the N/S tunnel. This would only work if the arm was a little shorter and the N/S arm a little longer. I'm going to give it a go anyway as I want to explore all options before drilling holes out etc

my first job is to get the steering set back up, straighten the car up in the garage (with the gearbox trailing around on a little trolley) and then get the whole thing back up on stands so I can get back underneath

Right, having put my car back up in the air by a good foot or more (which was interesting given all the variables) I now have the engine installed with the back of the gearbox dropped a few inches and the whole thing looks perfect. Even the front to back alignment looks almost straight as I notched the chassis mount brackets to add 5mm swing to the O/S for the big doughnuts. Clearance between the bell housing and the transmission tunnel is now about 1cm which is fine



The modifications do now mean that the engine cover toughes the back of the Brake servo but only just so a quick trim of the cover will solve that minor issue

The problems yesterday were all to do with that new style gearbox mount pushing it too high. I've made a temporary custom mount that will get me back on the road so to speak and give me time to think of a solution that includes some rubber isolation to cut down the vibrations



I had another look at using the block mount point further along and there was no way the arm would reach the chassis mount without the back of the engine hitting the firewall or the clearance on the bellhousing getting worse. I think this must be right for the Cabrio but not the Sportster.

As always, thanks for all the advice

Hi Ian

Glad you got it sorted.
As you say, there must be differences between the Cabrio and Sportster engine mount positions. Not so surprising I suppose when Marlin change the detail within models as well !

Mike

That's good news! I think Marlin owe you a correctly made gearbox bracket. Something has gone wrong with the new design or the manufacture of it. You really shouldn't have to make something yourself.
I'd bolt the supplied bracket back on, take a picture and then send it to Marlin and ask them how it's supposed to work?
Hopefully, they'll realise the mistake and send you one of the old type.

Now you have plenty to crack on with while they sort it out