hi all
I regularly go to the ferrari owners club day and have had time to study many dinos side by side.I've got endless photos. And even some of these cars differ from each other.Door locks move up or down on the door.Different bumpers,interiors etc.Chairs and flairs is another. Five spoke gold wheels,so who's really to say what's what. Even met at a fiat/lancia owners day a guy who had been "thrown out" of the ferrari owners club as he had radically altered a 206 alloy body and butchered it onto a 246 chassis!! Got photos of that too somewhere.He had the later 246 engine and running gear,earlier 206 knock on wheels and the 206 interior,even down to the headrest fitted to the rear baulk head instead of the seats as in the 246, and even the thin wooden rimmed steering wheel. Sort of odd but it looked so good. ian |
206
hi again
quick query for dino gt. are you using a jhc/deon shell. if so and your copying a 206 will you be altering the door hinge system so you have opening windows? When I got my car I did consider making a 206 too but when fitting the doors and altered door frames realized as the 206 has one big drop glass the window will not pass the hinging system in the door/a pillar to drop into the door. One of the reasons I went the 246 way-quarterlites!! ian |
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of course the whole replica thing falls apart if some one wants to look at the engine.Just sticking a ferrrari badge on it doesn't cut it! I have a cosworth v6 in mine that will be run on throttle bodies but I'll leave the badges on. ian |
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Strange you say that as the moulds for classic replicas gt and gts were taken from deon body shells.I know this for a fact as I visited classic replicas when the moulds were being manufactured and spoke at length with markus king who was gelcoating the deon bodyshell prior to laying up with fibreglass.Gordon was on holiday at the time in the us and markus spent almost all day with me.He showed me a completed deon rolling chassis from which the bodyshell had been taken. So due to shrinkage in fact the cr shells may end up being even smaller than the deons. They were even working from the same shed deon/ jhc made their shells in illminster!! I know they updated few things but it was basically a rebadged deon which was initially a rebadges jhc. ian |
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What is your opinion on the cascu moulds and body? |
Hi phil
I've spoke via e-mail with cascu many times mainly through ebay. He auctioned a few things under the name (I think?) berkley cars and on several pictures in the background was a dino shell. He also sold a few mouldings for the dino under the cascu name. I have only seen photos of the shells and chassis but they do look very good. To be honest from what I've seen,and learnt from him , if I was starting again today I'd be using his chassis and bodyshell.The chassis looks great and the bodyshell is from a 246 as he personally took the moulds from one. I did consider for a long time selling my deon (less any ferrari parts) and starting again with his kit but with all the work I've done 246ing my deon couldn't justify the expense with the other half!!! Ian |
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I've been looking at endless dino 246 photos over the week end and I've noticed that the swage line on the body doesn't run through in a straight line from the front of the car to the back. It starts at the nose and seems to run up from the very front of the car in a straight line to the rear edge of the front wheel arch at about a 4/5 degree angle,then runs parallel to the road between the front and rear wheel,before tapering out behind the rear wheel. If you look at the front wheel arch the swage line is approx 2 inches lower at the front than at the back.Strange what you see when you look closer!! ian |
Hi Ian;
I´m afraid I can´t go the complete 206 way, because I think it would be impossible. First thing would be the "spinner type" wheels, which i´m not using. I´m using 16" cromodoras with the modern 246 hub caps. There are as well other differences such as the head-rests, etc. The car is going to look as a mixture of modern components in an "old 206", but regarding the bodyshell, I wanted it to be as the 206 and L-series of the 246 are, and not introducing the modifications of later 246. The modifications are going to affect the items used to finish the car: steering wheel, wheels, etc. I´ll post some pics when it´s ready for that. Also, being a replica, we don´t have to worry about winning any concourse, do we? What is really interesting to me about the 206 is that it was an all aluminum car, really light, and rare, as there were only a few produced, but the 246 probably looks better. I´m using an alfa 3.0 V6. I agree that the engine has to be a V6, absolutely. I also was worried about the performance and handling of the car so we have worked really a lot on that: suspension geometry, etc. Lately we´ve been really into the bodyshell and on the doors. At the moment we´re working with the door frames and the opening system. The frame is basically the one used in the deons, but trying that it leaves only a small gap with the bodyshell (3-4mm). We´ve also modified the rear quarter window to make it the correct size and put a rain gutter close to the one fitted to the original car. Really hard work! Cheers Dino_GT |
Hi again Ian;
Yes, the line at the front is lower than in the middle of the car, but parallel. Also, the rear is also higher than the middle section of the car. About the inclination, it seems also that the rear and the front are more inclinated and only the center section is really parallel to the ground. however, the suspension set up is important. Some cars seems to have higher ground clearance than others and that affects how the car looks. If you leave one axle higher than other... However, these things are specially present on the 246 more than on the 206, I believe... I may be visiting the ferrari club over here soon and take a look and some measures of a 246 which is being restored. Quite a long time since I don´t see this car. Hopefully I can take some pics and specially meausures. I´ll tell you what happens. Dino_GT |
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Hi Nilfish;
Mark´s Dino is great. I made a visit to him in summer and his 246 replica is awesome. However, this replica is intended for using a ferrari donor. The chassis is much narrower at the rear for using an alfa v6, with the geargox mounted at a side of the engine and not underneath. The best solution would be to fit a longitudinal mounted engine and gearbox or modify the chassis. This last option involves designing a new geometry, so it´s a harder option. Also, you have to consider using ferrari parts as wishbones and steering rack. Some are avaliable, but are much more expensive than regular donor parts. I´d say, if you have a 308 gt4 dino as donor then perfect, if not, you´d have to look for solutions for a number of issues... cheers. |
Hi dino_gt
Agree, Mark said this himself to me, but it is achievable with some thought and engineering, i only have time at the moment lol, Doner engine and gearbox would need to be chosen carefully, would you have any ideas on the engine? Cheers |
well, you could fit any v6 really.
Camry´s v6 is good but i believe it´s an iron block, which is heavier...the alfa V6 is made of alluminum, which is lighter. I specially like this engine bacause I know it very well, it has great torque and it is very powerful. Another option is using an audi V6, mounted logitudinally with gearbox, as in the A4. It could probably be the best option to keep the chassis as it is, without modifying at least the suspension mounting points... Of course, the best option for me would be to fit a dino gt4 or a 308 gearbox underneath the engine, also for weight distribution. this gearbox disposition was one of the keys to make the stratos so competitive. One thing about the engine is that the more compact it is, the better, because you don´t have much room for it in the engine bay (specially height) The alfa V6 is quite compact. cheers. |
Engine choice
Hi, I agree that a V6 is the obvious way to go. Read any review of the Dino and one of the first things they mention is the glorious wail of the Dino V6 , which is why I've bought a 2 liter FIAT Dino V6. Rebuilding it isn't cheap though! I'd look at mating it to an Alfa manual gearbox, with Alfa 166 hubs so I could use Cromodoras.
But, if I hadn't invested in a Dino I'd definitely use an Alfa V6! The sound they make and the sporting delivery as the revs rise is awesome. Why on earth would you use a turbo or a slow revving luxury V6 instead of a sports car engine? Power isn't the only goal here! This little, nimble light weight car was fabulous with 195 bhp so anything around there with slightly less weight would be great. Thats my opinion anyway - but I've been an Italian car nut since I saw ( and heard ) my first FIAT 124 sport Cheers Ross in NZ Ps - the 206 with no fron quarter lights, often seen in Pininfarina promo photos was a prototype - as far as I know production 206 s had quarter light windows |
my dino so far!
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My chassis was the last one to leave deons factory and was engineered to take the ford v6 engine and also had the alteration to the footwells. I have used the standard deon wishbones front and back the fiat/lada front uprights up front and the lancia items at the back. I started in the engine bay,as after speaking with David Javan I had to have a cossie v6 lump. A brand new crated engine came up, the exsisting engine mounts were cut off and it was shoehorned in.New engine mounts were made and welded in allowing the engine and gearbox to sit 2" lower.I had to have an original boot/engine cover-not the ugly deon thing with the top box bonded on!! On my side the cossie lump was also slightly less tall than the essex unit and came with all alloy heads and alloy sump as standard. Another upgrade was a one off double core radiator with twin fans mounted approx 100mm back to allow correct bonnet opening.This meant cutting away most of the front floor,which seemed to allow the nose to move up to a more pleasing postion-result!! Brakes have also been upgraded-280 x 24 brembo vent discs at the front with wilwood 4pots,280 x 10 brembos at the rear with (for Iva ) standard lancia calipers and handbrake.Hubs front and back have all been remachined and fitted with one off cnc'd concentric hub adaptors drilled to take the 16"cromodoras. Starting at the front of the car a completely new bonnet was made as after the nose moved the original no longer fitted.This also has a moulding on the underside to make it more convincing.Patterns were made and alloy hinges cast for front opening as per real dino.Looking at buying superformance wheel well/front under bonnet mouldings to finish off in here. Also looking at the under belly moulding missing from the deon. I too have hacked the rear quarter lites to bits and added a rain gutter.I have looked into a stainless trim to go on this but at the moment cannot get it to bend around the tight corner and look any good.It needs a few cuts to remove excess metal the tig weld and polishing back. Unfortunately I never got the window frames from deon,so went to cr for them,but to be honest they were utter garbage. They were flat where the deon door is shaped around the quarterlite and when I tried to bend them to fit the welds broke.I did eventually get them to sort of fit but they really did look crap. :frusty: After much head scratching and looking over a couple of dinos I took the bull by the horns and machined some lenghts of 20mm steel bar in to an "H" section to take the window flock/channel.These were then made up in to window frames on the car.About this time I came across a opening quarterlite on ebay and with a £65 winning bid was utter blown away when it fit straight in with little work. Of course new rubbers were ordered and as the dino has curved glass new flat glass will be fitted as well. Mercedes 200 door locks were fitted as these are almost identicle to the ones used on the dino. Daytona openners take car of the outside while currantly working on the internal door openners.I've also moved the seat belt point to the correct postion and made a moulding to sit over it for a correct look.I'm using uprated deon door hinges and have fabricated brackets that mount to these and then onto the chassis for increased rigidity. On the side I've increased the depth of the cill as mine was short for some reason and will extend this under the car as per dino. At the back new mouldings for both the boot and engine cover were made.The engine cover relies on the deon hinges(now covered in the car by the seat belt moulding)and new hinges copied from a dino take care of the boot lid.Another pattern and casting for the boot handle fitted to the bootlid and another moulding seperates the engine compartment from the boot.I'm also looking to fitting the panel under the rear of the car. There is pobably alot more I've forgot-been on it ten years!! |
photos please!!!!!!!!!
Wow, sounds like you've achieved a lot. It would be great to see lots of photos of your build and alterations
cheers Ross in NZ |
Hi
I did try to load photos on to here but the size (mb or jpeg or something)was to big to load.Too many pixcels :frusty: |
dino wheels
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If anyone is interested I have 5 replica cromadora wheels ,that I made the patterns for and were then handcast by a local foundry,sent away for heat treated before being part machined for me by an old friend who owned his own engineering company. Sadly,as it was a fill in job to do when he wasn't busy,he passed away before they were finished:( (machined to fit lancia/beta/lada/deon hubs!) I visited several engineering companies to get them finished machined but was quoted silly money so I abandened the project and got a set from superformance for around half the price of the machining quote!! I guess they could be adapted to use for making a hub cap as per above. Or maybe finish machined if you have access to a big enough lathe.Looking for around £100 as that's what the recyclers have offered. If interested pm and I'll send some pictures.There are five in total. Ian |
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What hubs are you using now? oh and what steering rack are you using? cheers |
5x108pcd
Hi
Still using the lada/fiat hubs(brand new items from lada!) but these have been machined on the back face and centre inner diameter (which is still rough cast on the new hubs from the factory)to take a concentric hub adaptor that fits to the back and around the edge of the hub to give the correct diameter to fit the new brembo disc.The original hub outer edge and face were not machined in any way as to preserve the correct rotation of the disc and wheel when fitted. The adaptors are bolted to the hub in much the same ways as the disc are and were then put on a cnc and rebored to 5x108 pcd with the bolts going through both the original hub and new hub adaptor so bolting everything together. As to the steering rack this came with the kit from deon when I originally got it but I believe it's from a BL mini. To increase it's width and make it adapt to the lada/fiat front uprights again adaptors came with the kit. Ian |
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