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-   -   Tribute SWB 250 Kits – An Outsider’s View… (http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6365)

Paul L 19th May 2017 09:14

Tribute SWB 250 Kits – An Outsider’s View…
 
Rather than hi-jack ericholm’s thread, here is my two cents worth.
( Which, unfortunately, has turned into a bit of a sermon. :rolleyes: - So my apologies in advance. )

The price of the 250 kit appears to be valued, by some, as little more than the cost of the fibreglass itself.

Whereas, in my option, its true value is linked to the outstanding talents of Chris and Dan. :cool:

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In the art world, you could question why some paint splashed about on a canvas was worth £75m in 2006.

Jackson Pollock's No. 5

http://www.rockefellernews.com/wp-co...No._5_1948.jpg

Or why a few patches of colour, that even a child could draw, was worth £53m in 2012.

Mark Rothko's Orange, red, yellow

https://static.standard.co.uk/s3fs-p...ark-Rothko.jpg

You could, but quite frankly you would be missing the point completely. :icon_wink:

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The value of Chris & Dan’s work must be seen in the context of both their vision and technical ability.

Mocking up the ”Nip, tuck, stretch etc........” required on Photoshop is one thing.

http://i1046.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9818c2fe.jpg

But turning that into a life size functioning kit some ten months later is something else entirely.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s...A1F899EFA4.jpg

The sheer scale of the task involved was clearly documented on this forum, yet it is still undervalued. :icon_sad:

Instead, the small faults (and they are small) are highlighted as though the overall product is not still a work of genius.

So, yes, “the doer of deeds could have done them better”. :rolleyes:

But…

The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly;
who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming;
but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause;
who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly.


In my view, Tribute did the best job they could under the circumstances and the final kit is what it is.

All suggestions about how to change/upgrade/fix this kit require a further investment of time and money to do.

And there seems to be some confusion on here about the difference between being busy and being wealthy.

Tribute is basically two men in a (big) shed, it is not Ford, or Aston Martin with a multi-million R&D budget.

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The key fact for me is that the time and money required to turn an ‘imperfect’ Tribute kit into this.

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/...pstn5xdtnc.jpg

Is still a mere fraction of what it would cost to own an original.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...7c9103b865.jpg

It is also significantly less than what you would have to pay for a “better” kit, such as the Mirage 250 GT.

http://thumbsnap.com/s/6qJyWUCR.jpg

So if you don’t think the SWB 250 kit represents good value for money, then simply don’t buy it.

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I’ve learnt the hard way that the value of a kit (to me at least) is linked to the time required to get it on the road.

I can barely keep this list of Tribute Z3 based kits up to date, as they get turned around so quickly, which has to be a good thing.

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/foru...?t=4623&page=2

Note:
The useful links thread was my way of saying thank you to Chris and Dan for sharing their kit developments.
( As my car would never have got on the road without picking up so many fibreglass tips & ideas from them. )

So, rather selfishly, I want this forum to be somewhere that Chris and Dan can look forward to posting on.

I’d love to hear more about the Tribute ‘Auburn’ kit that appeared on Ebay.
( Plus Chris’s ‘Mexico’ project, Dan’s 275 model and zagmad’s constantly changing Alfa project. )

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/qy...=w1446-h863-no

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Anyway, that is more than enough preaching from me and I’ll end on a more lighter note below.

Cheers, Paul. :)

The SWB 250 bonnet cut - As shared by Jaguartvr. :cool:

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/y...unnamed-29.jpg

However, to paraphrase Crocodile Dundee:

“That’s not a bonnet cut… THIS is a bonnet cut!”

Swifty
http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/foru...3&d=1419190478

Viatron
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-V.../IMG_01372.jpg

Paul L
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1...o/IMG_0717.JPG

:icon_wink:

hurnleft 19th May 2017 10:34

I've not said much on here lately but here's my thoughts.

Before I bought mine (the first one they put together as Geoff was waiting for a different colour gel coat than originally planned) I read, reread and read again Geoff's thread showing the amazing amount of work that Chris and Dan had done to get to a product ready for sale. I went at looked at their work and knew exactly what I was buying.

I thought it looked fantastic then and I've never changed my mind. The price and finish was just what I wanted as I could finish it off to a standard and cost of my choosing, in the time frame I chose, whilst driving it all the time.

I have had the car studied by a couple of local guys who used to build and paint aluminium 250swb bodies to use with adapted 330 Ferrari running gear. They were very impressed with the concept of the car, it's construction and the finish I took it to.

Had the kit been to a 'virtually ready for paint" standard, I would not have bought one as it would have been out of my chosen price range and I would not have been as comfortable with making any alterations to it.

As I've already said in my thread, it's up for sale as it's now far too nice for me and I probably should have left it in basic, as bought, in gelcoat condition, just altering the wheels and suspension, as this is the point where I enjoyed it most, thrashing it around and not worrying about the possibility of stone chips.

You pays your money and you takes your choice. I don't have anything bad to say about the company or the product.

Bob.

Jaguartvr 19th May 2017 10:56

It does seem to be the owners and builders that are more than happy with the product.
Most of the negative posts about the quality and finish seem to come from people who are not building one, or even not building a car at all.
As Bob says, the final finish is down to the builder and if they had been more expensive I wouldn't have been able to build one.

The build thread on the development had me glued to the screen impatiently awaiting the next instalment, I do miss the fact that Tribute don't have anything on the go at the moment but if they just develop cars and don't concentrate on making and selling them then they won't be around for long. All a question of balance and they seem to have it just about right.

smash 19th May 2017 14:44

Indeed...and the cost of that finish has been set at £24k.

Just because someone didn't build a car - or even own one - doesn't mean they don't have an eye for detail (sometimes a lot better than the owner/builders) or the ability to suggest improvements.

There's a distinct lack of honesty round here - what is said off the forum is massively contradictory to what people will say on it. You know exactly what I'm saying here.

Carry on swooning

Lucky@LeMans 19th May 2017 15:07

To ad my point of view, I think the finished Tribute kits that have been mentioned on this forum and completed cars I have seen in the flesh have all been completed to a very high standard and look great.
Having built the good, the bad and the ugly regarding kit cars and classics over the last 25 years I can say that I've seen it all. My only niggles as a potential customer have been documented by builders of the 250SWB models having troubles with fit and finish of what is quite an expensive panel kit at the end of the day. Really theses small issues should have been ironed out early on.
I'm holding out for the 275 convertible kit, I only hope these same issues are dealt with and not replicated onto the new car.

Jaguartvr 19th May 2017 15:18

It looks to me as if the 275 is using the 250 door skins. Hopefully they will be rejigged to sort out the previous problems and fit perfectly with the new 275 clam. The new 275 doors could then be added to the 250 kit and the 250 bonnet would need just minor adjustment to the mould.
I would like to see different moulds for the 250 coupe and convertible doors.

Mitchelkitman 19th May 2017 15:27

Just to add my 2p worth...... Yes, there are a couple of 'fit issues', but the prices are keen, and Tribute have always displayed the cars "in the raw" at the shows.Unlike some kit manufacturers, you get what you see, you aren't paying 'instalments' in the form of kit1, then add kit2 etc. There are 'issues' with every kit car on the market if you look closely, indeed there are 'issues' with production cars despite all the millions of pounds worth of investment. As long as you view any kit as a labour of love (why do it otherwise), then it's part of the achievement. Unless you can do better (from scratch ie with just a bucket of resin + some matting) then there is really no criticism to be made!
Just my opinion, others may not agree.:wave:

Lucky@LeMans 19th May 2017 15:51

The fit and finish issues are indeed relatively small which is why they should have been addressed early on. The price of the kit isn't an insignificant amount. If I spend a couple of months worth of my hard earned wages on a GRP panel set I would expect said parts to go together without getting the angle grinder and P60 out because of manufacturing errors! If you bought a £500 bath tub from B&Q and the plug hole was in the side rather than on the bottom would you really be happy to put it right or would you be a little narked ?

hurnleft 19th May 2017 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by smash (Post 88110)
Indeed...and the cost of that finish has been set at £24k.

All sales start with an asking price. it's actually worth the best offer/ highest bid I get for it.
I might get around to finding out next week as a car I've liked for a long time has popped up for sale and a supply of cash will be needed so the 250 could be available on Ebay.

Jaguartvr 19th May 2017 19:03

I would suggest a buy it now price not an auction.
You only need 1 buyer, look at the price the first DNA commanded. You would have laughed but they are selling at that price and more.

lancelot link 19th May 2017 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaguartvr (Post 88120)
I would suggest a buy it now price not an auction.
You only need 1 buyer, look at the price the first DNA commanded. You would have laughed but they are selling at that price and more.

If Tributes or any other similar products started to reach high , high prices ...then there is the distinct possibility that , like DNA , the suppliers might decide the hours of unpaid aggro selling kits isn't worth it !!

Mitchelkitman 19th May 2017 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucky@LeMans (Post 88114)
The fit and finish issues are indeed relatively small which is why they should have been addressed early on. The price of the kit isn't an insignificant amount. If I spend a couple of months worth of my hard earned wages on a GRP panel set I would expect said parts to go together without getting the angle grinder and P60 out because of manufacturing errors! If you bought a £500 bath tub from B&Q and the plug hole was in the side rather than on the bottom would you really be happy to put it right or would you be a little narked ?

An interesting analogy (as I'm a plumber, and can spot issues with baths that others may not), so given that you've built a few kits and classics did you not expect some issues? I'm not trying to be confrontational, just interested to know. If I saw the hole in the side of a B&Q bath I'd not buy it, if I saw it was rather too thin (as they can be from lots of suppliers) I'd not go for it, but others may not see the problem.

Lucky@LeMans 19th May 2017 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitchelkitman (Post 88122)
An interesting analogy (as I'm a plumber, and can spot issues with baths that others may not), so given that you've built a few kits and classics did you not expect some issues? I'm not trying to be confrontational, just interested to know. If I saw the hole in the side of a B&Q bath I'd not buy it, if I saw it was rather too thin (as they can be from lots of suppliers) I'd not go for it, but others may not see the problem.

So taking this to its conclusion and before I get accused of being sarcastic;

Turns out there is a helpful B&Q forum where quite a few people have had the same problem so you don't feel quite so bad. Having read all the threads there is an easy fix to the plug hole being in the wrong place. All you need to do is drill a hole in the bottom of the tub and glass over the hole in the side, a quick skim of filler and you're all done. Its a shame that having skimmed over the hole you have lost the integrity of the avocado gel coat so you now have got to paint the complete bath tub. The consensus is that you only spent £500 on the bath and in the grand scheme of redoing your entire bathroom that's a drop in the ocean. Your bathroom is now finished and the neighbours are really impressed. You now return to the forum and thank everyone for their help and advice.

retro200 19th May 2017 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucky@LeMans (Post 88125)
So taking this to its conclusion and before I get accused of being sarcastic;

Turns out there is a helpful B&Q forum where quite a few people have had the same problem so you don't feel quite so bad. Having read all the threads there is an easy fix to the plug hole being in the wrong place. All you need to do is drill a hole in the bottom of the tub and glass over the hole in the side, a quick skim of filler and you're all done. Its a shame that having skimmed over the hole you have lost the integrity of the avocado gel coat so you now have got to paint the complete bath tub. The consensus is that you only spent £500 on the bath and in the grand scheme of redoing your entire bathroom that's a drop in the ocean. Your bathroom is now finished and the neighbours are really impressed. You now return to the forum and thank everyone for their help and advice.

just make sure you drill the hole in the bottom at the right end or it wont empty :eusa_doh:

Jaguartvr 19th May 2017 20:57

Just make sure you don't mix up the bog and the bath after a skinfull

Another thread down the pan:bolt:

Mitchelkitman 19th May 2017 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucky@LeMans (Post 88125)
So taking this to its conclusion and before I get accused of being sarcastic;

Turns out there is a helpful B&Q forum where quite a few people have had the same problem so you don't feel quite so bad. Having read all the threads there is an easy fix to the plug hole being in the wrong place. All you need to do is drill a hole in the bottom of the tub and glass over the hole in the side, a quick skim of filler and you're all done. Its a shame that having skimmed over the hole you have lost the integrity of the avocado gel coat so you now have got to paint the complete bath tub. The consensus is that you only spent £500 on the bath and in the grand scheme of redoing your entire bathroom that's a drop in the ocean. Your bathroom is now finished and the neighbours are really impressed. You now return to the forum and thank everyone for their help and advice.

We clearly view things differently. I'll not comment any more on this one.

Lucky@LeMans 19th May 2017 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitchelkitman (Post 88133)
We clearly view things differently. I'll not comment any more on this one.

No, I won't either, but you get where I'm coming from.

DaveP 20th May 2017 00:47

Having never owned or built a kit car my opinion is probably worth eff all with regard to the products ceaselessly argued over on here.

What is will say is this though.

If we constantly discuss the pros and cons of the SWB in particular there will be no point in manufacturers, such as, Tribute linking to the forum as a point of information or interest.

I don't know Chris or Dan but am not surprised that they don't contribute as much as once they did. Making ends meet will always come first so if their busy - good!

I for one want to see more interesting cars on the road. Mine included one day.

I'll also stop arguing now - wish this one could be put to bed once and for all though. Right where is the rest of that bottle ......

Dave

Paul L 20th May 2017 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveP (Post 88139)
… wish this one could be put to bed once and for all though…

Dave – My apologies, as it was your previous post on the ericholm thread that prompted me to start this thread.
( In an attempt to prevent the arguments hi-jacking someone else’s build thread and keep the forum a more positive place. )

However, clearly, I have failed. :icon_sad:

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Quote:

Originally Posted by smash (Post 88110)
… Just because someone didn't build a car - or even own one - doesn't mean they don't have an eye for detail (sometimes a lot better than the owner/builders) or the ability to suggest improvements…

Scott – Personally, I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with you on this.

The point I was trying to make is that we shouldn’t confuse how the car could be improved with how good it is to begin with.

In addition, it seems somewhat unfair to apply very high standards to a product that is not priced to achieve those standards.

Call it ‘swooning’ if you must, but I still think Chris and Dan deserve credit for creating a SWB 250 kit for a Z3 from scratch. :cool:

Whilst it isn’t perfect, it is still a great starting point to build something special that holds its own compared to the more expensive alternatives.

Bob’s Tribute 250 – A great example - £24k

http://imagehosting.rodsnsods.co.uk/...8236d4c312.jpg

Mirage 250 – Turnkey price - £120k

http://thumbsnap.com/s/6qJyWUCR.jpg

Ross Brawn’s 250 – £8m, but it is a real one.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...323451c877.jpg

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucky@LeMans (Post 88111)
… I'm holding out for the 275 convertible kit, I only hope these same issues are dealt with and not replicated onto the new car.

Lucky – Can I just ask how much you would be willing to pay for a 275 kit with no issues?

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Sorry for keeping this debate rumbling on.

Cheers, Paul. :)

DaveP 20th May 2017 08:15

Paul,

No need to apologise to me. I'm just a forum watcher/member.

All,
I just think it's a shame that this media is used in a negative way. We need a balanced view but outsiders to the forum may find the limited number of contributions here not necessarily welcoming.

I for one stopped by when I first found the Kobra images on a google search. I've been addicted ever since. Less so recently though. Lack of build or development threads has an influence over this.

I do often how many other builds are in progress but others do not want to share their experience for reasons that, as a group, we could influence.

I won't win friends with my comments but, for a change, have voiced a view.

I'm off my soapbox and will make a cup of tea now.

Have a good weekend all.

Dave


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