DNA roomer on DNAOC forum
 

Interesting read ..all speculation at the moment ..The 550 idea doesn't sound right to me ...a good 550 replica , like a Beck etc is a lot of work compared to the 2fifty and will not sell for the money they have been going for / asking for their recent stuff ....
The bespoke comments kind of contradict the 550 as well ...

I really hope its not the other suggestion , but I know Ferrari do get very upset when manufacturers start to use their badges ...... I wonder if the car that was pulled from the auction has any connection to recent events ?

What section is it in as the link didn't work for me?

Don't think you'll see any more 2fifty's sadly. And I'd guess once you're on the F radar then any attempt at a replica would be jumped on - irrespective of how you got there in the first place be it trade dress or otherwise.

Certain build agents should really stop the blatant (and ridiculous google Street view size wing emblem!) badging pretty sharpish - it's a potential house of cards.

Not sure where this leaves Automirage?

Link doesn't work for me either and I failed miserably to create an account when I tried.

I'm guessing that Ferrari has taken legal action to stop the use of their trademark on these cars, but any chance of a better explanation of the details of what's actually happened please?

www.dnaoc.co.uk

and just look at the recent posts on the right hand side.
Creating an account is tricky and not user friendly.

Okay, thanks for the working link to the forum.

Still can't find what's being discussed above though. It's probably just me failing to spot it, but what's the thread title?

I hope thats not the case ...I heard that they might be supplying turnkeys to be sold through a single outlet ....maximizing retail opportunity..but nothing to back that up

Agreed ..if for no other reason , it looks awful ....

Hopefully carrying on as he is .... the repercussions and ripples could affect a lot of people if it was to spread ..so hopefully , firstly , the DNA Badge issue isn't true ...they have a legitimate and self generated reason to change direction , and secondly , It stops at their door if it is true ....

Really , only DNA can answer this one or a representative there of ....it doesn't affect me directly , but as a manufacturer/ builder , I have an interest in any changes or restrictions that come along ....

Certain build agents should really stop the blatant (and ridiculous google Street view size wing emblem!) badging pretty sharpish - it's a potential house of cards.


I was going to use this as a bonnet badge.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ferrari-Wa...p2047675.l2557


I think I can pull it off:peace:

Bad man!!

Could someone please summarize what is the 'roomer' being discussed as I can't see the thread either :yo:

Seconded by me. Based on the above comments there appears to be something big happening. I'd love to know what is going on. If (as I infer from comments) Maranello have flexed their muscles there could be no more 250 replicas. I had anticipated this issue - surely the issue can be dodged by changing the name of the car to remove the Ferrari model reference and tweaking the shape slightly allowing the car to be an "evocation" rather than a replica.

Someone started a thread on the DNA FORUM stating that they had contacted DNA about purchasing a 2fifty. They were told that DNA were no longer offering the 2fifty.
My first reaction to that was that the KIT was no longer available and the poster had over reacted to that and misunderstood assuming that the whole thing had gone .....as the thread expands and other people contribute , it apears that they have all received various different information when speaking to DNA - one was told a 550 project was now consuming their time , another that an investor was funding a bespoke build ...but a couple of posters said that DNA had been involved in a situation at a recent car show and the suggestion was that Ferrari had made their feelings known ...I have to be honest , I tend to think that probably is the case .....the cars were getting a high end price , some big publicity , Brian has said its the best one he's done , he should have gone retro years ago ...Auction houses throwing the word Ferrari around hoping to have big pay days etc etc... I suspect the Italians thought it was time ....

I really , genuinely think that the buck will stop at DNA's door , if the above is correct ...The cars were scarily accurate in many ways , big badge useage etc. I do wonder what's different this time , as I cannot believe that DNA have not received communications before ...they are no stranger to obvious replication.

I think other manufacturers / build agents/ home builders etc. should take heed of the warning shot thats been fired and tone down the 'similarities' a little , maybe ?
I am no expert on this by any means and don't know where the line is drawn , the silhouette argument has been explained to me in the past , but thats tricky because an Aston silhouette or a Maserati silhouette etc often is spookily similar to the Ferrari etc.

I think the minute you badge up , its an issue ...I know Aston covet their grille shape as well ...but putting Ferrari badges on must be a step too far...

Imitation is usually the greatest form of flattery , but I think the concern may be that a whole heap of replica's will affect genuine prices and credibility ... Slightly different situation , but the saturated market place for fake Cobra's must have affected genuine Cobra ownership ...how many of us would assume replica before genuine , if a Cobra went past you on the road ...we all do it ...Even watches , clothing etc...we all assume its a Bolex before Rolex .....so maybe thats an issue , maybe its brand useage ...I don't know ...I'd love to hear both sides of this argument , as a builder who strays into ''inspiration'' territory and tries to avoid replication , I really would love to know where the line is drawn and why its there ....

Great post Lancelot. I am conflicted on this issue. Could it be that direct replicas of a high quality such as DNA improve brand awareness and therefore demand for the real thing? I suspect there is too great a difference in price for this to be true. I suspect the feeling at Maranello is that replicas cheapen the brand.

I personally don't like the replica/copy trend. There are so many stunning cars from the 50s-70s that I think there is plenty of scope for a period car without treading on anyone's toes. I treated myself to an original Rolex (Seadweller) a few years back and everyone assumed it was fake. If I had a multi-million pound Ferrari I would be p1ssed off if people thought it was a Z3 "kitcar"!!!!!

...so there's nothing concrete about action from Maranello then, just vague rumours.

I seem to recall that Bentley had an issue with a certain rebody company copying one of their 'in production' models a few years back and I understand Mercedes had a Gullwing replica body destroyed in Germany, but the rules regarding ownership of historic designs and breach of copyright are very complicated indeed, especially across international borders.

I'd have thought that if Ferrari were threatening action against low-volume manufacturers of their historic model range they might have made it public themselves by now, which they don't appear to have done.

As for other manufacturers, the Chesil website states that Porsche UK send customers enquiring about buying a 356 Speedster to their doors, so they appear to have no issue with replication of their out of production range.

Until something official gets put in print I wouldn't worry too much about the rumours.

Right, time to start looking at alternative power sources for my 356 replica as I've heard a rumour that the Government wants to ban fossil fueled vehicles from the road and have us all drive around in flying cars powered by magic moon beams by 2040...

I don't have an issue with replica's ..but have to agree with the second part of your statement !!!!

Sorry if people can't find the thread.
I started with an upset prospective Z3 owner who had stripped a Z3 down intending to fit a 2fifty kit only to be told that no more were being produced.
The website disappeared around the same time, a lot of people thought that they were going to just build turnkey 2fifties but this seems to have stopped as well.
Another post suggested that they had been told that DNA were going in a different direction and producing 365 Porsche replicas.
As I said it's all rumour but is strongly suspected the F have stepped in and are a bit miffed .

I can see them being upset about the modern replica's as they were such good copies, you would have to look very closely to see they were replicas. On the other hand I can't see a company being too upset about a replica based on a car that came out of production over 50 years ago, so long as they aren't using a well known trademarked badge. I don't think anyone can blame them for fiercely protecting it.

Most peoples idea of a kit car has always been some dodgy grp body stuck to a rusty Beetle chassis. Things have obviously come a long way from that and many are superbly designed and finished.
In doing some investigation for a project, I have been told basically, go and buy a decent size model, have it scanned and then the result enlarged. It can then be CNC cut out of polystyrene to give you a mould. This means that it is going to be much easier to copy other peoples designs in the future, I have already seen a Chinese Range Rover Evoke copy that looks so close. Enforcing copyright in China is going to be another minefield.

You wait till WCA gets his 3D printer up and running, I can already see him planning his next car being made from very small sections!

I don't think they work like that ...they are more of a 'sniper' when it comes to this ...they fire a shot , take out one player , sit back and watch everyone else duck for cover or surrender ....

We had it in the 80's locally , with the 260Z based 250 GTO look a likes being built in Fordingbridge..... They destroyed their moulds from memory with a court order ...the ripples went out and a lot of people took notice ...

Totally agree ...we are just speculating and discussing an unknown at the moment ... I have an obvious interest and can be a bit vocal sometimes ....it is an interesting debate though , love to hear other peoples views and opinions , positive or otherwise on all aspects of our industry.

Oh ...Towed , By the way there is a letter from my solicitor on its way for your over useage of the ...... punctuation - I registered excessive use of it in inappropriate ways several years ago .....

:yield:

Interesting....thanks for the summary.

Given DNA's model history I would have thought it would take something very serious to stop them producing the 250 if they indeed have.

I felt it was far enough away from being a copy that it wouldn't attract the attention of Ferrari but I guess if the 'buzz' around the 250 also had Ferrari bandied around with it and badges on display then it was going to attract attention of the wrong sort.

AGREED ....As I have said before , no stranger to the Fakari world , very well promoted and definitely not low profile at shows etc. Emulating current models is always risky as well ....

I think the 'buzz' as you put it , could be exactly whats caused the issue .....

Hmm. objects on pillows maybe???

Neigh.

Some of the recent 250s are extremely attractive in relation to individual, well known chassis numbers. The kit manufacturers, and even the build agents cannot stop what the customer puts on the car. However, the oem will not care, it is their brand and ip that is being used for leverage (for that is what it actually is). What constitutes proprietor style, as ponited out already, debatable. The DNA approach, understandable as it is, was leaching big bucks. Hardly a cottage industry when you look at the added value coming from what the oem perceives as their ip.

HORSES FOR COURSES , I GUESS .....

My mane concern is for the guys stuck in a mare of a situation and being saddled with half built cars due to the supplier falling foal of the law ....but hay , what do I know ......

don't worry coats on and taxi's been ordered .....

Stop horsing around. ;-)

I agree, especially as they regularly used the same designers for the prettiest cars. I don't envy you treading the fine line.

But that's the point - in this case it was DNA badging their own demonstrators, as in Nubodis case for the ex demo and new number 7 car - they're knowingly using the IP to make sales - it's not the end user that's brought this on, it's the manufacturer and build agent.

For demonstrators there can be no excuse. For customer cars, at the end of the day they are built to order .... ish.

I THINK MY LINE IS A LOT THICKER THAN SOME ...I don't think anyone could argue my product is a copy of any one particular manufacturers work ...

Interesting times ahead though ...I'd still like to hear the official word on what's happened ...

I agree that you have a much stronger case than some others.

It doesn't help when the oems get heavy though. They just want to put a stop to it, and fear is a good starting place for them, being a lot cheaper than legal cases.

Agreed ...If a customer chooses to 'badge up' thats not the Manufacturers or agents fault ...they aren't in control of what happens post sale or delivery and its a bit like an illegally spaced number plate or wrong coloured plates on a late model car in some ways ....some choose to chance it , others won't ...if you do , you take your chances and thats that ...

To the best of my knowledge its a practice carried out by customers and Agents on the Tribute line ....I don't think Chris has ever fitted badges to one of his kits , as he is quite aware of the implications of upsetting a major manufacturer ...

From a promotional point of view , I can totally see why agents and other manufacturers do it ..but they all know the risk , same as I did when I ran illegally spaced number plates for years on various cars ....

In all kinds of business, some folk ignore the warnings and others do not, especially those who have been bitten I guess.

Agreed ..its working isn't it ? we are all talking about it , running a bit scared etc...I have no worries at all about the Formosa , as with the S*mmio ...it replicates nothing ...but I also make my living and associate with people and customers / projects etc that are nearer the knuckle and would rather we all carried on just as we are ....

I couldn't find the original link through for this thread either.
However, the industry has been here before namely with Cobra kits and
Lotus 7's.
From what I can remember with the Cobra case it simply ended with the replica manufacturers not being allowed to use the word Cobra in their marketing.
The Lotus 7 being made by Westfield was a like for like copy so they had to make a few changes to the body work until Lotus were happy. The original Westfield 7's are now known as the pre litigation cars !
The bottom line is that there are still plenty of Cobra kits and Lotus 7 style kits to choose from on the market today.
Ferrari have been here before, I also understand the Datsun 250 kits were stopped and the moulds cut up. At the time nobody took the concept further.
I would think the Tribute and DNA Z3 cars are far enough away from being copies. Their physical dimensions and proportions as well as whats under the skin is very much far removed from the real thing.
I can understand Ferrari being upset with Ferrari badges on the demo cars but I would think that would be the end of it, I hope.
Think also Champagne and other brands of fizzy wine. Some fizzy wine is better imo but they aren't allowed to call it Champagne which is the real deal .
Think Melton Mowbray , think pork pies, but only the real one can call itself a Melton Mowbray !
Make some attractive 60's style fibre glass panel kits, but don't badge it up as a F........

Again, as echoed above, something tangible regarding what's actually happened between DNA, Maranello and/or Cosa Nostra Legal Services would be useful.

From experience of having to deal with a legal case involving partners in a design company falling out financially, which led to a technical burglary and alleged theft of original designs from one business partner by another, I can say with some authority that the laws covering intellectual property, design ownership and trademarks are very complex.

In the case of a company such as DNA/Tribute/Fiorano building visually similar cars to historic Ferrari models, two factors come into play: 1) copyright of the original design; 2) trademark infringement.

Copyright of the original design is currently owned by the individual who can prove they drew the first sketches (or electronic equivalent) and completed the design, and passes on to their heirs for seventy years after their death. That remains true regardless of who employed the designer and/or commissioned the design. Contrary to popular belief, paying someone to design something for you doesn't automatically make you the owner of their design.

So, legally, the right to stop somebody else copying *the Ferrari 250 Califormia Spyder body shape rests with the individual designer (or his heirs if deceased) employed by Pininfarina to draw the shape when Ferrari commissioned them to create a convertible version of the 250.

As such, it shouldn't really be Ferrari that would bring litigation against companies creating similar shaped cars but whoever penned the shape in the first place.

*To make it even more complicated, minor changes to the dimensions or look of the car - a different nose-cone on a seven, for example, can mean that the design copyright hasn't been breached at all.

If a manufacturer of a historic model from its range designed by someone else brought legal action for breach of copyright a decent lawyer could keep that gravy train rolling for years without a court ever reaching an adjudication.

Trademark infringement, however, is much simpler. Ferrari and the Cavallino Rampante are the registered trademarks of a current business. If you are manufacturing goods, including tee shirts, baseball caps, manbags or cars, and putting Ferrari logos on them without Maranello's permission, you're infringing their trademark, full stop.

As has been rightly pointed out above though, they're more likely to notice and take action if it's a business that's making money off the back of their trademark rather than a man in a shed gluing a prancing horse to his home built pride and joy.

Couldn't be simpler, eh?

Now, anyone actually know what's going on?

http://www.thedesigntrust.co.uk/desi...signer-makers/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark_infringement

Great post Mr Towed, and very informative.

Really? You believe they employed a designer and let them keep the rights after paying for the design?

And the whole gravy train thing is exactly the point - if Ferrari were fronting you out with their massive resources are you really going to try and argue and face potentially 100s of thousands of legal fees or fold and take it on the chin?

Whatever route they took DNA clearly didn't have the appetite to attempt a defense. I'm sure F could make some pretty nasty threats...

I was told they'd been shut down - no reason to doubt the source

Basically they took the chance having had a great run up to now but got pulled on this one