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-   -   Formosa 120 GR Long Nose build (http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6521)

lancelot link 24th October 2017 20:39

Formosa 120 GR Long Nose build
 
I am about to start another build for a customer ...its going to be a slightly different build to the last one ...The donor only arrived this morning , so not a lot to report as of yet , but I have an SE5 rolling chassis and a straight 6 , 3.3 litre Ford engine and manual box sat loosely on top of it ...

https://preview.ibb.co/gA7SFm/IMG_20171024_162132.jpg

Body ordered today and should be with me in a couple of weeks tops ...in the meantime more updates as I fit the engine and repair the chassis etc...

https://preview.ibb.co/gq9M86/IMG_20171024_162111.jpg

Alex 24th October 2017 21:33

Great news Gary, hope it all goes well and I shall follow with great interest

redratbike 24th October 2017 21:51

Be nice to see one with the extended bonnet

lancelot link 25th October 2017 21:08

Managed to get the engine positioned and mounted today ...I wanted to get it as low as possible without compromising the propshaft angle and its a bit of a lump , but thankfully , the gearbox isn't any bigger than a Type 9 unit , so she fitted in very nicely .....
I cut the stock Ford engine mounts down and made boxes out of them , bracing the chassis at the same time as well ...

https://preview.ibb.co/irSF1R/IMG_20171025_191223.jpg

She sits just behind the front wheels , weight wise , which is good and the column change box has a remote floor mount conversion which can go in a variety of places .....so happy days ..so far ...

Mick O'Malley 26th October 2017 07:20

Love That Lump
 
3300cc! It's a beast. Looking forward big time to updates on this.

Regards, Mick

Barber 26th October 2017 14:14

Good luck Gary, this is one corner of the internet where there be pirates and dragons.

Jaguartvr 26th October 2017 16:50

That's more like it 3.3L.
I always thought the BMW straight six 2.5, 2.8 and 3.3 would make great donor engines but the electrics could cause a big stumbling block.
Would be nice if someone did a complete 2nd hand engine & gearbox combo with all electrics for kit projects.

lancelot link 27th October 2017 21:38

BIT MORE PROGRESS TODAY , The photos won't download at the moment , so will add later ...but basically some general repair work , replacing the front outriggers and outer rail ...I have fitted fully boxed sections to the repaired areas for added strength and rigidity ...the Scimitar shares the same design weaknesses as the Triumph Herald and Vitesse in as much as channel sections on the ends of the outriggers are weak in their standard format and rely very much on the bodyshell for strength ...the S*mmio and Cordite frames were designed to brace this as well as other strengthening properties , The Miglia frame kind of does the same but not as well ...The Formosa framework more than makes up for the removal of the bodyshell , but boxing the open channel sections is permitted within acceptable chassis modificationss by DVLA without compromising the 8 point rule , so if it needs repairing , its sensible to do the mod....

I have had a couple of people ask me about the customer ...I have 2 builds going on at present , a modified Miglia and this Formosa ...both customers are keen to remain anonymous for differing reasons .....My Miglia guy doesn't want any pics or info on his build on the internet ( don't know why ..) ...but the Formosa guy ( Eric ) is ok with my documenting the build . I have known Eric for over 20 years , an old friend who goes back to my previous life as a Hot Rod builder and parts supplier ...He has a Hot Rod attitude towards the build , which is great for me and the car will eventually reside in France but remain RHD on English registration as he is a regular visitor back to the UK ...

Also , before I forget , I fitted the Wire wheel adaptors that turned up today and a set of 15'' wires from stock until Eric's wheels arrive ...this addition in place of the stock wheels has reduced the overall track width by 2'' front and rear , which, in this build , is good news ...

Mister Towed 28th October 2017 08:41

That's the opposite of a Herald or Spitfire based build then, as fitting the wire wheel adaptors and MGB wires on the Triumph chassis' increases the track by "2.

Nice to see that you've got regular commission work coming in, Gary, and the last car you finished was a real credit to you. I suspect your happy customers will spread the word and help to keep the turn-key orders trickling in at a manageable but profitable rate. Keep up the good work!

lancelot link 28th October 2017 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Towed (Post 91383)
That's the opposite of a Herald or Spitfire based build then, as fitting the wire wheel adaptors and MGB wires on the Triumph chassis' increases the track by "2.

YES , YOU ARE QUITE RIGHT ...My overall track measurement is based on the total width , like the American measurement , they measure total width as track ...the Triumph's have skinny steels and addind an adaptor and early non dished wire , does increase the track by 2'' , the Scimitar has a wide dished wheel , so adding an adaptor and skinny wire is less than the total width of the dished wheel.....
This is exactly what I needed for this car to avoid too many body 'tweaks' ...

scimjim 28th October 2017 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaguartvr (Post 91367)
That's more like it 3.3L.
I always thought the BMW straight six 2.5, 2.8 and 3.3 would make great donor engines but the electrics could cause a big stumbling block.
Would be nice if someone did a complete 2nd hand engine & gearbox combo with all electrics for kit projects.

I have a 73 SE5a with BMW/Omega straight six 2.5 diesel turbo - the electrics are the easy bit :icon_wink:

Jaguartvr 28th October 2017 16:44

It's setting up the ECU that frightens me. Give me a set of points and some carbs any day.
Do you know of any info on the great interweb that could be of help?

scimjim 28th October 2017 21:56

my Car uses the original ecu (with chip) - no setting up, just feed it volts as required :)

Mister Towed 29th October 2017 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by scimjim (Post 91395)
my Car uses the original ecu (with chip) - no setting up, just feed it volts as required :)

That's exactly what I intend to do with my Ford Puma (front) engined 356 Outlaw race car.

I'm planning to use the Puma's key, ECU and full wiring loom, so I can't really see why it wouldn't just work.

The only potential issue I have come across during my Google research is the speed sensor/torque limiter in the gearbox, which apparently does influence the fuelling at high revs and can cause stalling on the overrun if it's disconnected (thanks to the Fiesta 1.7 conversion boy-racer crowd for that snippet).

I'm hoping that it's possible to either transfer the speed sensor across to the RX8 gearbox (could it even be the same sensor in the Mazda 'box already?) or attach its receiver to a rotating part that turns at about the right rate with the sensor on a fabricated mount.

A last resort plan is to use an electric motor governed by a variable rheostat to match the vehicle speed, but that's starting to get a bit too complicated for my liking.

As for instruments, the plan is to rehouse the Puma's electronic gubbins in old Triumph gauge pods with Porsche style graphics on their faces. It's been done over on the Tribute forum using BMW gauges so it should be possible.

Anyone on here got experience of fitting a 1.7 Puma engine, ECU and loom into a RWD car? Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated. :)

Sorry for the thread hijack, Gary, I'll start a thread of my own shortly. :nerd:

lancelot link 29th October 2017 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Towed (Post 91397)
Sorry for the thread hijack, Gary, I'll start a thread of my own shortly. :nerd:

Not a problem , I'm happy to 'bench race' with everybody on anything that's relevant to our hobby/industry....

I wish I could comment , but the electrickery side of modern engines is all a bit klingon to me ....

scimjim 29th October 2017 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Towed (Post 91397)
I'm hoping that it's possible to either transfer the speed sensor across to the RX8 gearbox (could it even be the same sensor in the Mazda 'box already?) or attach its receiver to a rotating part that turns at about the right rate with the sensor on a fabricated mount.

the RX8 box doesn't have a speed sensor - it has a neutral switch (don't ask, it's a Japanese thing :icon_surprised:) and reverse switch - speed is taken from a wheel sensor. simplest will be a pickup on the prop or diff output.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...pse66c34be.jpg

Mister Towed 30th October 2017 07:15

Thanks Scimjim, very useful information.

Once I start stripping down my Puma donor I'll take a look inside the gearbox and see what type of trigger is in there. Hoping it'll just be a simple matter of mounting it on something that rotates at about the same rate as when it's fitted to the Puma.

Don't really want to delete it as the Puma/Fiesta go-faster crowd report that it causes fuel starvation at high revs and stalling on the overrun, but they mostly seem to be happy with that to lose the torque limiter in first gear. that allows them to smoke the front tyres as they launch away from the traffic lights outside Sainsburys. And stall as they slow down for the next set...

lancelot link 31st October 2017 20:11

Managed to get a bit more done today ... not terribly photogenic but its all progress ...

The outrigger and perimeter rail fixes are done , I used box as stated earlier , and capped the fronts to avoid any water or muck getting in the ends from the wheels . I then drilled and tapped the box to accept 8mm bolts and welded 8mm washer faced nuts into the original , thinner rails at the rear , middle , approx. bulkhead line and front so that I could begin to work out and construct the inner space frame augmentation ....

I'm tackling this frame differently to the current Triumph example , the characteristics of the Scimitar chassis lend themselves to a slightly different approach .....I'm using 50x50x3 angle iron cladding the perimeter rails and main chassis rails following the same line as the originals and are tied together with another piece of angle steel across the rear of the seat area. This is all fixed with the 8mm fixings I mentioned just now ...from this base I will build up the tubular frame in the same style as previously ...


https://preview.ibb.co/g2pDCb/20171031_162602.jpg

T

scimjim 31st October 2017 20:56

Twin front ARB? Is there a rear ARB too?

lancelot link 31st October 2017 21:57

Yes , doubled up ARB ...don't think there is one on the rear , will check tomorrow ...Its got the wrong steering rack too ..but that's going to be amended back to stock when one turns up at the workshop


I haven't forgotten the info you asked for mate ..Eric hasn't given it to me yet ...

micky1mo 1st November 2017 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by scimjim (Post 91395)
my Car uses the original ecu (with chip) - no setting up, just feed it volts as required :)

I'v also fitted a BMW engine and your right the electric are simple so I'm hoping the Jaguar XJ40 electric are similar.
But as GJ says electric are bit of a night-mare. :help:

Interestingly both the Ford and Jaguar engine installation have ended up in roughly the same place on the chassis.

https://i.imgur.com/RSIKXneh.jpg

I had to lift the block to fit the alternator between the suspension turrets.

https://i.imgur.com/fanmYyeh.jpg

Paul L 1st November 2017 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by lancelot link (Post 91344)
... a straight 6, 3.3 litre Ford engine...

Eeek! :shock:

And here was I getting nervous at 70mph on the motorway in my car. :rolleyes:

Good luck, Paul. :)

lancelot link 1st November 2017 19:35

MICKY1MO ...The Jag engined Scimitar looks interesting ...I know you are no stranger to building modifieds but I have to ask ...why didn't you just re-position the alternator rather than lean the engine ? The beauty of belt driven ancillaries is they can be moved about as long as they , obviously , stay in the same line as the belt ...it looks like you could have raised it a bit or put it on the other side ? Photo's don't always show the full story hence asking the question ...
Also , I see you have removed the tube that ties the turrets together at the bottom ...thats quite structural , whats the plan there ?

Jaguartvr 2nd November 2017 09:24

The XJ40 lump sits at an angle as standard (at least the XJS version did). They are very tall engines but silky smooth.

lancelot link 2nd November 2017 11:24

AAAH OK ..THANK YOU ...That makes sense ....as you were ...

lancelot link 8th November 2017 18:05

Got a bit more done yesterday and today ....namely some dropped floorpans.

I have made these out of 3mm plate , really strong and they are fitted front and rear at present and seat pan and foot pan are welded together on top of the outrigger to the existing framework ...everything drops in from above so still fully removable.

http://preview.ibb.co/jFQGqw/IMG_20171108_144230.jpg

The seat pans are sloping back for seat angle , but , sitting in it , I think I may fit the seats with a more acute angle ...

As the pans are only fabricated with front and rear attached so far , I made up some angled sections that will cater for the sides ...The very long foot pans will enable me to create lots of legroom as we are not governed by a Triumph bulkhead on this one and I can scratch build to suit.

http://preview.ibb.co/gLmQHb/IMG_20171108_164948.jpg

The bodyshell is being delivered tomorrow , so I should be able to start fabricating a bit of framework and mapping out new bulkhead etc...

scimjim 8th November 2017 23:33

Are you going to make patterns from the frame and offer this “long nose” version as a kit for the Scimitar?

lancelot link 9th November 2017 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by scimjim (Post 91641)
Are you going to make patterns from the frame and offer this “long nose” version as a kit for the Scimitar?

Not sure at the moment ...I am still feeling my way with this one and the kit is offered , at present, as a Triumph based car that could be adapted to fit alternatives including a Scimitar ...

It's a lot of time and money developing a kit , even subtle changes can be costly ....the framework is going to be significantly different and its looking like body tub changes are necessary as well as the obvious bonnet stretch ...

I need to draw back some investment ....It owes me more than many may realise , so the Triumph angle is my main focus for kit sales , but I'm happy to do full or part build alternative chassis'd cars for builders ...

Any builders who have tackled a previous build on a kit car or Hot Rod , specifically previous S*mmio /Miglia builders who have had challenges to overcome in the process would all be very capable of tackling the mods required to go down the Scimitar route ...

lancelot link 9th November 2017 20:16

Bodyshell arrived today , bonnet and other panels will be ready by Monday ...

I only need the body at present , so was happy to see it turn up ...

This is the colour they will be supplied in as standard , unless otherwise requested ..its Traffic Red and really suits the bodyshells ...

http://preview.ibb.co/eO3AJG/IMG_20171109_105200.jpg

This one hasn't been flow coated as I know I am going to do some mods ...

http://preview.ibb.co/j7LeCb/IMG_20171109_105223.jpg

I started putting a frame together , just enough to support the bodyshell for now and the beginnings of a bulkhead .....

I had two 2'' roll hoops in stock and I have used these for the front and rear bulkhead main hoops ...
I started to frame up the bulkhead using a combination of 25x25 and 20x20 mm box sections , this will have some plate added to support the pedals and will all be clad with aluminium later on ...

I was losing my light by the time I could take any pictures but these give you an idea ...

http://preview.ibb.co/jH9Wsb/IMG_20171109_165751.jpg

http://preview.ibb.co/cqA4Cb/IMG_20171109_170041.jpg

The car is going to be lowered slightly as she sits a bit high , and I am going to radius the rear arches to give her round arches to match the front on this one and the much needed tyre clearance ...

The wheels are just about inside the arches but the track is a little wide for my tastes and will not balance the front as they will be slightly tucked in ..so a relief cut is going to be put into the top of the rear arches and they will be pulled out about an inch either side , it will barely notice but will just tuck them in a bit ...

Jaguartvr 10th November 2017 08:49

Looking at the last picture, it looks as if the rear wheel is sticking out quite a bit at the top. Worth putting some weight in the boot area to simulate petrol tanks and some fuel to see if it brings the top of the wheel back in.
Could save you an awful lot of hard work, seems a shame to start cutting such a well finished panel.

lancelot link 10th November 2017 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaguartvr (Post 91678)
Looking at the last picture, it looks as if the rear wheel is sticking out quite a bit at the top. Worth putting some weight in the boot area to simulate petrol tanks and some fuel to see if it brings the top of the wheel back in.
Could save you an awful lot of hard work, seems a shame to start cutting such a well finished panel.

The photo does distort that a bit ...both wheels on the rear have the sidewalls poking out of the arch . The tread is covered - just. The addition of adaptors and wires has pushed them out .....The wheels are upright as its a live rear axle on coilovers and 4 bars ...

Scimitars are really good cars underneath . I think its basically TR6/GT6 type front suspension with a coilover shock , a version of a MK2 Jag rear axle , 4 bars , coilovers and a watts linkage .

Loading the rear will push the wheel upward but won't tuck it in anymore ...I am going to lower the rear which will achieve the same but , as you rightly say , once it has tank fitted etc... its looking like the Spitfire tank is going to be the tank of choice again looking at the space I am working with .

I am happy cutting the rear arches , the plan was always to radius them from the start - Eric and I discussed that at the beginning as we are pretty sure the bulge on the bonnet will end up as a scoop , so the rounded rear arches and scoop will give the car quite a different feel ....a bit more like the more musclely looking 500 TRC's etc.
So , stretching bonnet , stretching lower wing section , adding a scoop , radiusing arches and a slight banding of rear arches is going to create some scars anyway ...

lancelot link 11th November 2017 18:12

Here's a better picture showing the rear wheel ...

http://preview.ibb.co/dnSnYG/IMG_20171111_145130.jpg
upload a photo

Its just about tucked in ...so this is what an SE5 axle , wire adaptors and 15x5 wires look like .
I think a subtle 1'' band in the top of the arch will be just enough to get the wheel in to where I would rather see it ...but if another builder chose to use an SE5 then it shows it does fit !
SE6 is a few inches wider , so they wont work in my opinion as the banding would have to be too much and affect the lines of the car ..a stretch to 103.5'' wheelbase is a stretch to far , possibly too ...

Jaguartvr 11th November 2017 19:24

You wouldn't want the tyre damaging the bodywork or paint after you have put all the effort into the build.
Shame the SE6 is wider, I think a Scimitar with the better chassis, suspension and engine would be an ideal donor.
I think the radiused rear arches will be a big improvement, the ones at the moment aren't quite square or radiused.

lancelot link 11th November 2017 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaguartvr (Post 91701)
Shame the SE6 is wider, I think a Scimitar with the better chassis, suspension and engine would be an ideal donor.

I agree , the Scimitar is a great car underneath for a project build ...Lots of Hot Rods have been built using them for several years now ...its a shame that the much desired wide track and long wheelbase of the SE6 that the Rodbuilders crave , isn't suitable for a 50's race car styling as it just gets too wide and long ...( JUST MY OPINION) ..But it does mean they won't want 5's so much , and we don't want 6's ..so we can all live harmoniously in the world of Donor purchasing !!

Quote:

I think the radiused rear arches will be a big improvement, the ones at the moment aren't quite square or radiused.
It will certainly slim down the hips a bit ...I don't think improvement , just different .... You can blame Dr. Porsche for the rear arch shape , they are Porsche 356 rear arches that were grafted in using some panels from a Chesil pirate body that was cut up ...

Jaguartvr 12th November 2017 18:21

Are you fitting new or second hand wire wheels? If new you could have them set up so that the rim is brought in a bit. Could save you a awful lot of work. Even if you were going to fit second hand, you could find that fitting new wheels that don't need body modifications could pay for themselves.
MWS are very helpful.

lancelot link 14th November 2017 22:10

running with second hand refurbed wires ...I can get them blasted and powder coated for 40 a wheel locally..
The inset rim , sticky out spokes look isn't going to work for me ...I have a definite look in mind...

lancelot link 15th November 2017 20:09

Got quite a bit done today but totally ran out of light and didn't want to take pics of unfinished bits ..so I will update tomorrow night ..

For now though , I collected the bonnet today and put it roughluy in place , the stretch is no surprise , but the amount of room under the bonnet was ...I was convinced she was going to have to have a scoop to clear that lump ..but it clears with plenty of room ...getting the engine low was helpful and setting it back , but its no where near an issue ...so now I need to discuss with E. what we do ..whether to leave it or go with the musclely scoop anyway ...

I tried the radiator and it can be mounted upright too ...so thats cool as well ..

so todays pics are just the re-instated steering rack mounts as the chassis had a cobbled on , non-standard rack that didn't work properly ...a section of chassis and rack from a scrap SE5 gave me the bits I needed ..

http://preview.ibb.co/neZgF6/IMG_20171115_134328.jpg

I also welded a couple of little mounts on to accept the new radiator ...

http://preview.ibb.co/nPe6F6/IMG_20171115_142802.jpg

I started the tubework frame to support the rad ..working out pedal placement and steering column line ..its working out well ...

as I said ..pics to follow ...

lancelot link 16th November 2017 18:57

It was getting dark again before I got a chance to take some pictures ..but managed a few ...

Space frame augment nearly done ...need to work out shifter , handbrake and do some ally cladding etc....but tubework shaping up quite nicely ..

http://preview.ibb.co/emZYDR/IMG_20171116_170223.jpg

I have framed up the engine bay too ..taking framework from the front main hoop , across the bulkheads attaching itself to the suspension towers and forming a frame to support the radiator before locating itself on the front chassis rails which will also be utilized in the fabrication of the tilt front mechanism ...this will be added to the front of what I have done so far ..it needs to go quite a bit forward from this point into the pout area as the hinges need to be low and forward to allow the front valance to clear any obstacles as it opens ...

http://preview.ibb.co/gjMG06/IMG_20171116_170343_1.jpg

Apologies for crappy pictures ..but this shows the steering and pedal layout.
I am using Triumph pedals and master cylinders as I have mimicked a Vitesse / Herald bulkhead , so I know the pedals will workout out at the correct height etc.
M/cylinders shown ..pedals to come and not sure what accelerator to use yet...
The steering column is the stock Scimitar one , mounted virtually horizontal which I am really pleased about as the Maserati is the same ...

Its mounted on its original mount bolted to a box section frame under the dash , a benneli clamp welded to a bracket on the bulkhead thats attached to the tubular framework as well , and changes direction using a stock u/j and is mounted to an extended stock Scimitar lower shaft with a sleeved joint supported by a pillow block bearing ...

http://preview.ibb.co/h1GftR/IMG_20171116_170442.jpg

Final picture shows the bonnet in place at the right height but slid forward to give an idea of the stretch involved ...when its mounted , I will roll it outside to take better pictures .....

http://preview.ibb.co/iV7g06/IMG_20171116_171730.jpg

molleur 16th November 2017 21:06

Super!

Paul L 17th November 2017 07:04

Gary - Good luck with the stretch, I am sure it will look great when it is done, Paul. :)


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