Listing To Starboard!

cbjroms · #1 11th March 2012, 14:54

I am at rolling chassis stage with no engine or gerabox fitted. I have the lowering block on the back and the front spings have both been reduced by the same amount as trevor's.

Having had chance to get it out of the garage yesterday in the sun to turn it around, I noticed that the offside sits about 1" lower than the near side. Took some measurements back to front and this 1" difference is fairly consistent whatever reference points I use.

So today I put a jack under the diff and lifted it off the ground and checked the measurements again - still 1" difference. So I put the rear wheels back on the ground and lifted the front - still 1" difference.

I am assuming that the weight of the engine and gerabox will all be on the centre line of the car and so it should be level without these fitted? Clearly the rear spring might be softer on one side than the other and can only be fixed one way. Can't see that this 'list' would be caused by a chassis problem?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks

Chris

lancelot link · #2 11th March 2012, 15:11

I know it sounds obvious , but are your tyres the same size and inflated equally side to side ?

davecymru · #3 11th March 2012, 16:09

Try swapping springs to the other side and see if the list swaps?

If it does then it's spring/shock related.

If it doesn't then i'd wait until the engine etc is all back in an see what happens.

cbjroms · #4 11th March 2012, 16:50

Thanks for the responses.

I guess that I am concerned about fixing the body to the chassis if the problem is due to the latter. But, in my view, given that the list is consistent fore/aft it would seem unlikely to be a chassis problem. Unless someone can see something that I am missing?

Thanks

Chris

Alpha · #5 11th March 2012, 16:58

I have seen several rear spring assemblies that sagged on one side or the other - seems to have been a relatively common problem with remanufactured springs. Once put one on my Spitfire, found the list and exchanged it for another at the same shop I got it from originally.

But this would of course only explain a difference on the rear axle - from your description, I understand you have the same list when the chassis is only resting on the front wheels?

Baz from Brussels

garyh · #6 11th March 2012, 16:59

I would try the springs, always start with the obvious... maybe check the leaf spring?

cbjroms · #7 11th March 2012, 17:08

Baz, you are correct.

The same 'list' exists when either the front wheels or the back wheels are off the ground.

If it were springs then the front offside spring is weak as is the rear leaf spring on the off-side.

Chris

Alpha · #8 11th March 2012, 17:21

So either you have two duff springs, or the chassis is somehow warped...

WorldClassAccident · #9 11th March 2012, 17:41

My TVR listed to the drivers side when I got it. After a few enthusiastic drives, including leaving the ground a couple of times, it disappeared. Not sure what freed up but something obviously changed but the car is level and I haven't changed anything.

cbjroms · #10 12th March 2012, 21:03

I put a beam under the main rails by the diff and another under the cross member at the front (ie that runs between the 2 turrets) and jacked-up both beams so that all 4 wheels were off the ground.

I measured the height of the rear shock absorber top bolt off the ground and found nearside and offside to measure exactly the same. Similarly with the centre of the half-shafts and radius arm bolts on both sides. But the rear/outer edge of the side rail is 15mm higher on the off-side than it is on the nearside.

I moved to the front of the chassis and found that the front/outer edge of the side rail is 12mm higher on the off-side than it is on the near side. So the list is being caused by one side rail being higher than the other.

It seems to me that I will be able to hide this this difference in the way that I align the Sammio body shell onto the frame. Does this make sense or is it going to affect the handling of the car?

Measuring the front suspension I have also found that the centre of the stub axle on the off side is 10mm higher than the one on the near side. I will try swapping the spring/damper units from one side to the other tomorrow night to see if it makes a difference.

Chris

cbjroms · #11 15th March 2012, 16:43

Locatedthe problem. The offside out riggers are not true to the chassis and droop by 1" (front, centre and rear). The near side out riggers are correct.

So this should be an easy little welding job given that I have yet to attach the body to the rolling chassis. But I am regretting having used gripfill to stick the plywood floors to the chassis and side rails!

Chris

tlrtone · #12 15th March 2012, 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbjroms

But I am regretting having used gripfill to stick the plywood floors to the chassis and side rails!

Well I was considering what to stick it alltogether with myself, so I'll cross gripfill off the list!

I am thinking a simple rubber seal with mastic, as I am bolting my pans down. I would like to think that in a zillion years, when I need to do a full restoration on it, I can simple lift the body off!

Glad you found the culprit with yours Chris, good luck with getting it sorted!

davecymru · #13 15th March 2012, 17:48

I'm glad you've found the problem!

I've Tiger Sealed my floors down, so that'll be interesting if i ever find myself in a similar situation

cbjroms · #14 16th March 2012, 07:37

Despite having used a tube of Gripfill on either side (prbably 6 weeks ago), both plywood foors just peeled-off with no damage whatsoever! Excellent news for me but I thought that Gripfill would stick for ever.

Interesting to also note that that I had used POR15 on the chassis followed by a POR topcoat which I have always felt to have been quite soft. Where the Gripfill did take some of the paint off, the POR15 is untouched and the topcoat has simply peeled off it. Note to self - the metal paint that I recently purchased from Toolstation seems far superior to the POR topcoat.

Chris

andrewhush · #15 16th March 2012, 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlrtone

Well I was considering what to stick it alltogether with myself, so I'll cross gripfill off the list!

I am thinking a simple rubber seal with mastic, as I am bolting my pans down. I would like to think that in a zillion years, when I need to do a full restoration on it, I can simple lift the body off!

Glad you found the culprit with yours Chris, good luck with getting it sorted!

I am considering using denso tape between the top of the chassis and the floor panels. This stays flexible forever and is sometimes used for wrapping leaf springs to stop them going rusty

http://www.google.co.uk/#q=denso+tap...w=1172&bih=552

cbjroms · #16 20th March 2012, 13:13

I had a bit of luck over the weekend.

Having got the bulkhead, floors and frame off the chassis on Saturday I decided that it would be an easy job to just cut through 3/4 of the way through the offending outriggers, bend them into the correct position and weld them up.

I spoke to someone local who has done some welding for me in the past and he offered to drop around on Sunday pm to help. He was absolutely brilliant, welded-up my cut outriggers having helped me with the alignment and gave me some welding lessons at the same time. He has done a superb job - all I need to do is get the adjusted outriggers repainted - and only wanted to charge me a pittance!

Will try and post a few photos tonight but if anyone needs any welding done in the Southampton area then I can definitely recommend a superb guy who is a pleasure to have around and charges a very reasonable rate.

I was talking to him about the Sammio and showing him some photos. He loves the car and is keen to paint mine for me as he also does spraying for a local garage. He suggested a price which I rejected as being way too cheap and made a counter offer well below £1000!

Chris

garyh · #17 20th March 2012, 14:30

Sounds like a good bloke to know... Any tips on the welding?

tlrtone · #18 20th March 2012, 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by garyh

Sounds like a good bloke to know... Any tips on the welding?

Make sure the metal is clean - cut back any rust to clean metal first. Welding is not easy/fun on rusty tissue paper thickness metal!

With Mig, go in little circles or U shapes covering both bits of metal you are welding, and keep the wire in the "puddle" of molten metal. You will be pushing or dragging the puddle along the weld.

Fiddle with the wire speed and power settings until you get it right.
I used to have a restoration shop (VW beetles and campers) years ago and had a lovely Snap-on 180A welding get up, but nowadays I can do 95% of car welding with a simple Sealey 100A hobby mig. The main difference is that the bigger machines have a longer cycle time ie, they weld a high power for longer. With mine, I have to do a bit, then grind a bit, do a bit, grind a bit, have a coffee a bit, grind a bit, weld a bit etc etc! It is more relaxed and takes planning!!

Wear a good mask and get used to red hot bits of metal landing on your skin at annoying intervals

cbjroms · #19 20th March 2012, 16:11

garyh,

Chatting to the welder (Steve) I was interested to see that he did not worry about cleaning-off the paint before welding as he said that the impurities would burn-off and would, anyway, float on top of the weld pool. In fact, he used the first bit of heat to burn-off the paint and then went back to form the weld pool.

Steve's main concentraion was using enough heat to get really good penetration and he used my Clarke 160TM near max setting for the chassis. He made sure that the weld was hot and flat and kept stopping to allow it to cool a little as long as it still stayed red.

When cutting the outriggers he did it so that when they were moved in the right direction the gap closed and could be welded-up.

Finally, when aligning the outriggers he bent them further that they needed to be moved so that when the weld shrunk, the gap would close and the outriggers final position would be correct. Whatsmore, every time he did this his judgement was correct to the nearest mm!

Definitely a good bloke to know and I really enjoyed my Sunday afternoon welding lesson.

Chris