Whats your worst kit and why??

[Saymur]

It's easy to say what kind of Kit Car floats your boat and why...... Be it a Cobra to a GT40 or even a Seven inspired design but what could be more interesting and of great info are the things you dislike be that the design, the people who have produced the car being unhelpful or something about the car in general that rises the heckles !!!!

This kind of info would be of use to a potential buyer as well as a producer or even a designer!

Personally speaking its hard for me to comment too much as far as building a kit goes as I have never actually done it but I've followed the Kit Car scene for many years (about 15 ) and gone to many shows. I've even got copies of Kit Car International and thats going back some. But if I had a gripe then it would be the amount of Lotus 7 inspired designs there are not to mention Cobras I am not knocking either car I think they are both good but I think the industry is lacking ingenuity, not enough people making something differnet that isnt either copied or dare I say 'safe'. The only car that springs to mind that I would say has ingenuity has to be the 5exi, its different and looks cool 2 major factors that will proove success for a kit design. I'm sure a lot of people will scream 'HEATHEN' and 'INFIDEL' at me but what the héll just my 2 cents worth.

[Ex-Biker]

'emmmmm

Did you know the 5Exi isn't a totally original design?

As for ingenuity, I'd say the Ultima has a lot. And I don't really like the car. Aeon looks to have copied that design a little too. Strange that I like that car. . .

I don't like '7's either. Not 'cause they're a bad car, but they aren't exactly designed for 6 footers are they! After 30 plus years years of development they are only now realising that.

Cobra's are so common that most people think they are all kits and don't realise that the car used to be a production model.

There are lots of bad kits, but for many different reasons. Quality and looks are just 2. Some good kits are bad too. It depends on the way the individual has built and finished it.

The most pointless kit I've seen is a Mini copy. Why? There are thousands of them around and if you have one with a knackered body you can buy a new bobyshell for £400.

[Saymur]

Gotta admit I didnt know the 5EXI wasnt totally original but I did see the car which I beleive was its first public appearance at Donnington a year or so ago (my memory fails me héll it might not of even been Donnington ) But I did like the idea of using the peugot lights.......I think I'm just a kiljoy in the sense I dont like open topped cars this country just doesnt have the weather for it ....but on that odd occaision when the sun does shine I have enjoyed myself once or twice

[vojx]

the 5exi looks fairly novel to me - but it really needs a rethink of the wheelarches. The 7s are old hat, as are Cobras - but why are they so popular? I thought kitcar enthusiasts were the sort who liked to be different, so why do are we dragging ourselves into the realms of uniformity? You can find several decent chasses out there, but bespoke bodywork is a little more daunting for both manufacturers and wouldbe-DIY designers. I imagine taking a mould off someone elses Cobra or suchlike bypasses an awful lot of the development and realisation costs and efforts. Tis why I like the Kamala, Ultima, Noble (if it were a kitcar). Now a McLaren F1 would be a different story. . .

[Ferg]

Originally Posted by vojx

The 7s are old hat, as are Cobras - but why are they so popular? I thought kitcar enthusiasts were the sort who liked to be different, so why do are we dragging ourselves into the realms of uniformity?

Hear, hear.

[JG]

Originally Posted by Ferg

Hear, hear.

It would only appear to be uniformity amongst kit car people. Remember that the kit car industry is small, very small. You may well be the only person in your town or village with a kit car let alone a cobra or a 7, so in essence you are being different.

Why are they so popular? because they are timeless and attainable, period.

John

Madabout-kitcars.com

[Saymur]

Apparently we was at Stoneleigh when we saw the 5exi Like I said being the ripe old age of 37 things start to become a little vague I dread to think what I'm going to be like @ 60

[Ferg]

Originally Posted by JG

Why are they so popular? because they are timeless and attainable, period.

I think they're popular, because they're popular and people think.."they must be OK because there are so many about."

I'm going to be a bit controversial here (and you all know what car I drive), but replicas hold the kit industry back. Although '7's have certainly kept manufacturers busy, I don't believe there has been any knock-on for other manufacturers and the lack of original thinking has restricted choice for buyers. I refuse to conceed that just because something is a budget car it has to be either ugly or a Lotus Seven Rip-off. I use that last phrase because LSIS is just a cop-out, say what it is and be done with it.

[Ex-Biker]

We want more originality in the kit car market!!!

We don't want '7's, Cobra's and other reps!!!!

And we don't want ugly cars

watch this space

[JG]

Originally Posted by Ex-Biker

We want more originality in the kit car market!!!

Yep, that would be nice.

Originally Posted by Ex-Biker

We don't want '7's, Cobra's and other reps!!!!

Clearly people do otherwise they wouldn't be so popular.

Originally Posted by Ex-Biker

And we don't want ugly cars

watch this space

That's the problem. One persons idea of a good looking car is anothers idea of an ugly (boring) car and do you risk pooring money into something that you think looks good but actually everyone else thinks is butt ugly (FBS census springs to mind - although not a kit car I know). The kit car industry is not awash with cash so the easy(er) route is to replicate.

Notable exceptions to this of course are the likes of Phantom, Ultima and the soon to be released DP Attack but the common link for all these is the cost - they are expensive and out of reach to the majority of kit car followers. Cheaper attempts tend to be just that, cheap, and sometimes nasty. Getting the balance just right is a challenge I don't think the manufacturers are willing to commit the time or money to.

John

Madabout-kitcars.com

[Ferg]

Originally Posted by JG

I don't think the manufacturers are willing to commit the time or money to.

Then don't be a manufacturer......

Too many simply don't have the courage of their convictions.

[Ex-Biker]

Originally Posted by JG

One persons idea of a good looking car is anothers idea of an ugly (boring) car and do you risk pooring money into something that you think looks good but actually everyone else thinks is butt ugly (FBS census springs to mind - although not a kit car I know). The kit car industry is not awash with cash so the easy(er) route is to replicate.

Notable exceptions to this of course are the likes of Phantom, Ultima and the soon to be released DP Attack but the common link for all these is the cost - they are expensive and out of reach to the majority of kit car followers. Cheaper attempts tend to be just that, cheap, and sometimes nasty. Getting the balance just right is a challenge I don't think the manufacturers are willing to commit the time or money to.

John

Madabout-kitcars.com

So what if some one built a reasonably good looking kit car with a build budget of say less than £5k?

[JG]

Originally Posted by Ex-Biker

So what if some one built a reasonably good looking kit car with a build budget of say less than £5k?

That is crux of the argument. Reasonable is not good enough, there have been plenty of reasonable looking kits that have sold a few but nothing thats been taken to the hearts and sold like hot cakes.

Dutton was more or less there back in the eighties, but although original in design still took the 7 concept, so where do you draw the line?

An orginal design that people are going to be immediately drawn to for a build cost of £5k is an impossiblility in my view and would invariably be based around a 7 design.....it would be nice to be proved wrong though

As for the included picture, I realise this is a first draft of someones work being shown over on PH....but again, can you honestly say you are drawn to it? My first thoughts were Mk3/4 Escort with a bad body kit. If I want something that looks like a production car or a modded production car I'll buy a production car.

John

Madabout-kitcars.com

[Ferg]

I think you're possibly right with 5k in mind, but why should it be that cheap?? I know GTM quote tempting figures for the Libra, but mine isn't unusual in costing well over £15k. This, I believe, makes 'cheap' at least £7k which could make a good looking car.
I'm not saying I could make it, but I'm sure someone could. I'm well aware of the debacle of the Caterham 21, but a '7' derived chassis with a decent all over body should be attainable and marketable.
Problem is that no-one wants to. It's too easy to rip-off (there's that phrase again) other people's designs, no risk.

[Ex-Biker]

Originally Posted by JG

As for the included picture, I realise this is a first draft of someones work being shown over on PH....but again, can you honestly say you are drawn to it? My first thoughts were Mk3/4 Escort with a bad body kit. If I want something that looks like a production car or a modded production car I'll buy a production car.

John

Madabout-kitcars.com

That's right John, It's James's design. James and myself have been talking about it over the last few weeks with a view to the possibilities of manufacture.

The main reason the kit can be done so cheaply is the use of donor and the simplcity of design.

Front transverse engine means no additional costs in converting it to mid engined. It looks possible the original suspension can be used (possibly with the option to upgrade to wishbones and coilovers).

We are looking at various design pointers at the moment to see where people think the design should go.

Just think. A serious contender to the GTM, Shelsley, 5Exi, Quantum etc etc for the price of a '7'.

The design is totally original and the quality will be there. Both James and myself agree that the quality of the product will make the difference between a good seller and a failure.

I will try and get some different pics on here to what are put on PH.

[vojx]

I'd be real interested seeing the designs that ex-biker et al come up with. If I were to win the lottery, I'd like to set up my own kitcar company, not worrying about running at a loss - so that I could design several alternative bodies, based on 2 or three basic (well-sorted, obviously) chasses. But my tastes in cars is - CONCEPT CARS. Check out the portfolios in Car Design News (www.cardesignnews.com). Most people love concept cars (especially the more radical looking, sprty things) but if/when they reach production they're too wishy-washy (the correct word escapes me for the moment). I'd rather take the concept and put it on the road. I like the work of Rimon Ghogrial (also at www.autoartworx.com). If only the chassis of my Litton Corse were a little different I could do a fair copy of these designs (see attached). Fortunately for me the Litton chassis is absolutely fabulous, unfortunately the roll cage / driver cell procludes the accurate adoption of these designs. Anyway, enough rambling for now:

http://www.autoartworx.com/aston8.htm

[Ex-Biker]

Vojx

I have looked into your ideas of one chassis and various bodies before. What feedback I got was that it would not work.

I still can't see why myself. Lets face it a lot of production car manufacture is based around a similar idea. The Golf floorpan for example, is shared with Audi(A3) Seat(Leon, Cupra) and Skoda(Octavia). All completely different cars with the same roots.

I also like you idea of concept style cars. The market for these is relatively small compared to where we want to target this design. If this is successful, I can see no reason why others (more individual) won't follow.

[vojx]

on the theme of worst kitcars, I've just seen a picture of the Kamal Futuro - that's hideous.

On the line of 1 chassis many bodies, it would work technically but I agree probably not commercially.

I suppose a downside of concept cars is that they date quickly. But are GT40s and Cobras timeless classics because of their looks, or more for their history? Kinda like bravado-by-association.

[vojx]

Originally Posted by Ex-Biker

I also like you idea of concept style cars. The market for these is relatively small compared to where we want to target this design. If this is successful, I can see no reason why others (more individual) won't follow.

Certainly wish you good luck in the venture.

[D-Angle]

I'll probably get shot down for starting on here with a "J'Accuse" post, but since I have a degree in transport design, I thought I would chuck in my $0.02 here

A lot (I should say not all) of kit cars are styled in accordance with the proprietor's idea of his/her dream car, rather than what will appeal to those who will buy it. Ex-Biker strikes me as being on the right track (not many others out there like it, would appeal to budget builders etc) but sometimes not even this is done. It may make for an interesting car for the proprietor, but it's not a sound reason for going into business making them.

As for replicas, they have their place, but they shouldn't be the be-all and end-all. After all, whatever they look like, we've seen them before, and that won't help general interest in kit cars to grow. I think there's lots of replica manufacturers out there turning out some cracking cars under replica bodyshells, which more than warrant a unique bodystyle to make a really interesting new car. Gardner Douglas anyone? Maybe that's the way to do it - start off building replicas which will sell, establish yourself, then move on to your own unique products. You can't tell me that one of the Lambo replicators couldn't produce a brilliant, unique new British sports car on their already tested and developed chassis? Or maybe you can, feel free to

Anyway thats what I think, by the way Ex-Biker, you might wat to look at the HotDog Concept Car, made a few years ago by a design consultants, based on a Fiesta chassis. Might give some inspiration? It's the yellow car in the pictures on http://www.mbrt.co.uk/tourzone/icons.htm , Sorry I couldn't find any better shots!

Regards,
Justin