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Go Back   Madabout Kitcars Forum > Mad Build Area > Dino 246 Builds and Discussion

Dino 246 Builds and Discussion Da da da da daaa daa da da, ohoho Dino

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  #21  
Old 11th August 2011, 20:49
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I don't have a problem with most of the posts on this section but it was starting to go downhill with personal/legal remarks which crossed the line.

I can fully understand the situation some of you are in is utterly frustrating and you need to vent but just be mindful of what you are writing, especially if you are in the throws of legal proceedings.

Keep it simple and non-emotional. Ta.

John
  #22  
Old 12th August 2011, 09:14
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Hi John,
In response to your concerns you are right to edit what you feel is unjust or emotionally charged. I think that a huge percent of people come to your site for insight into the kit car world and what they can share and learn. I would like to hear of a company successfully putting out Dino Replicas, perhaps ones that have made it to the road even. There are the odd Deon's that come up for sale but has anyone driven one that might have an opinion to share on how they are to live with. I will eventually look to buy a replica Dino (or a real one if I win the lottery) and it would be good to know the good and bad points of those that exist?
  #23  
Old 29th August 2011, 15:35
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Default deon

hi guys
I think most of the posts on here were alright. Ok some were close to the edge but I do feel both sides need to be heard. I only wish a forum like this was around when I so willing gave deon all my hard earned cash for so little in return. Knowledge is a good thing and maybe I would have chosen to have spent my cash on something else.
  #24  
Old 30th August 2011, 14:41
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Exclamation

I think a register of reputable builders which would automatically highlight the opposite should be created. It would be in the interests of all Kit car builders and enthusiasts to know who and what they are up against when buying what is to be a road going vehicle. By todays standard a lot of cars are way behind on safety but that was acceptable 10 years ago. For example the development of safety belts and air bags. The basic things like a customer feedback from companies who are accredited would really help. It would avoid some of the pit falls and scams that exist. Companies like Morgan, Lotus, Marcos and many others started from small companies building their reputation by customer satisfaction. I wonder how they would view some of the comments on this and other linked forums regarding certain companies. Does anyone know if there is a register or any legislation? Can anyone say they will build you a car do they need to have any skills? How many companies build Dino Replicas for instance. I have seen adverts for Deon ones for sale but they rarely fetch more than 14k. there are 2 for sale now if you look online. Though some companies value their cars at 20k plus I was even told that a customer was told his car would value 35k. How can these valuations be justified if their is no accreditation? You could value it at 50k but it won't sell....
I am now going to sell my Numberplate I bought when I thought I was having a car built so if anyone owns a Dino and it is on the road you might be interested. 'D1 NOT'. Unlike the car it was meant to go on this value can be certified and if anyone is interested please get in touch.
Was the Deon a bad car then? I might go see one thats advertised just to check it out
  #25  
Old 30th August 2011, 17:10
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Default deon

hi all
I wouldn't say the deon was a bad car. I have seen several very well put together customer cars that I would be glad to own. But it has to be said I've also seen a few that weren't put together very well at all.
Your right about the prices of these cars.I have some late eighty which kit mags with deon cars priced at 35k!! Mind you at that time real dinos were upwards of 200k in the boom years. A good one is worth around 12/14k as you rightly say.
Hindsight is a very good thing.No way would I have got involved with deon had I known what was to come.I got into kit cars when I got fed up chasing tin worm.After restoring a morris minor,2 fiat 128 coupes and an early mini cooper s I started looking at kit cars.As a kid I'd always like Tony Curtis's car in the persuaders.Didn't know what is was but loved it.Well at a kit car show at stoneliegh out in the club stands there was one.and the rest they say is history.
That brings us up to today some 16 years later, on axle stands unfinished in my garage, as I guess are so many deons.
  #26  
Old 30th August 2011, 22:17
simmos simmos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecarbuilder246 View Post
hi all
I wouldn't say the deon was a bad car. I have seen several very well put together customer cars that I would be glad to own. But it has to be said I've also seen a few that weren't put together very well at all.
Your right about the prices of these cars.I have some late eighty which kit mags with deon cars priced at 35k!! Mind you at that time real dinos were upwards of 200k in the boom years. A good one is worth around 12/14k as you rightly say.
Hindsight is a very good thing.No way would I have got involved with deon had I known what was to come.I got into kit cars when I got fed up chasing tin worm.After restoring a morris minor,2 fiat 128 coupes and an early mini cooper s I started looking at kit cars.As a kid I'd always like Tony Curtis's car in the persuaders.Didn't know what is was but loved it.Well at a kit car show at stoneliegh out in the club stands there was one.and the rest they say is history.
That brings us up to today some 16 years later, on axle stands unfinished in my garage, as I guess are so many deons.
Don't want this thread to decend into a negative again but i feel it's only right to state that i have heard as many horror storys about the old John Hurst Classic's AKA Deon company as i have about Classic replicas.

Yes they did produce a number of completed cars.

The problems i have seen with the Deon Dino replicas amongst many others are a very cramped foot well that makes the cars virtually impossible to drive hence the cars usually have low miles, various modifications can and have been made to some of the vehicles but in their standard configeration they are a pig to say the least and can be down right dangerous if your foot gets caught on the steering rack when reaching for the brake.

The Deon Dino's were never further developed after early ones hit the road in the 80's....until Classic Replicas took over.
  #27  
Old 31st August 2011, 19:48
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Default footwell

Hi guys
Totally agree with you on the foot well issue. All jhclassic gt and gts suffered from a cramped foot well.As the early deon was a re-badged jhclassic they suffered too but the issue was addressed towards the end of deon era.(about the same time they started to offer the 2.9 v6 ford engine) The last few deons had a larger foot well increased by around 70mm of which mine is one of them.
As to them only having low mileage,I think you'll find this applies to any kit car.To be honest who would use them every day?Most only come out when the sun's shining.Look at any cobra,lotus 7 or any kit car 10 years or older and they have barely covered 10,000 miles.Each to their own.
  #28  
Old 1st September 2011, 00:29
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Shows that you really need to research your car and the company before parting with cash. No demonstrator walk away! Any company trying to sell kits should have a completed car so you can try it for size! I really wish I had taken this advice
  #29  
Old 1st September 2011, 16:26
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Default test drive

Hi all
As you say not all kit car manufactures have demo cars to test drive.Years ago I went to gtm cars in loughborough to check out their car.They didn't have one either,but took me for a spin in a customers car.Wouldn't let me drive it because of legal responsibility, needless to say I never purchased!
I was lucky enough to drive a deon owned by a guy not too far from me who was selling as deon never had a demo car either.My son went to tiger sportscars to look at their cars recently and caught them out too. Somebody else was out in it!! But it is a good idea to try before you buy.And never pay for anything you cannot see or feel with your own hands.It's true the kit car scene does seem to be awash with dodgy delboy types that in any other walks of life just wouldn't get away with it.
  #30  
Old 4th September 2011, 00:27
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Hi Terry at DeHavilland Motor Co. I've just had a look at your pictures on Facebook and I must say congratulations! There are some fascinating pictures there and it is very refreshing to see a manufacturer being so open and transparent. Long may you continue to keep open communication with your customers and potential customers.

I have a couple of questions for you from my perspective. These are meant to be supportive. I have always loved the original Dino for its looks and its Italian sporting and racing spirit. I also love the idea of kit cars - taking a fresh concept and a pick and mix bag of production car parts. Messing around in the garage to create something you can be proud of is as a big a part of the fun as the driving and camaraderie of the kit car community. Questions:

1. The body looks good and the chassis well-made but have you taken any professional advice about chassis strength and torsional rigidity? Using subframes and suspension from the MG will ensure well-developed structure and suspension, steering, braking for those parts but the structure joining them will need to be ultra stiff and strong to work well.
2. Have you thought about getting closer to replica look, perhaps as an option? Maybe original style 5x108 Cromodora wheels? Real Carello lights? The correctness of the detail look is important to me although I know many others aren't concerned about such details.
3. I like the V6 option idea. Let's not forget the Dino was born out of a plan to homologate the formula 1 Ferrari V6 engine so it could be used in F2. Maybe Rover/MG V6 engines would be in the right spirit (my choice would be an Alfa V6 because its "in the family" so to speak). Powerful, sonorous, high-revving sporty delivery....

All the best for your venture
Ross, in NZ
  #31  
Old 4th September 2011, 20:23
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Hi rossnzwpi,
These are good points you have made because all car builders need to haver a passion for the car but ultimately the car must be safe to drive and in the unwanted event of an accident.
That pans out that if you have the opportunity to drive the car you intend to buy first even if it be a previous customers then you can really check out the build quality and speak to the customer on a satisfaction level.
The points you also mentioned about correctness are worthy but also costly. Italian spares are notoriously expensive.
  #32  
Old 4th September 2011, 23:44
rossnzwpi rossnzwpi is offline
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Hi, good point Inspace. The safety in a crash issue is very important and comes partly from a strong centre section that won't collapse around you. Fibreglass and steel can work together to help there. The handling and roadholding safety is also partly due to chassis stiffness. If it twists even a millimeter or two then all the careful suspension design is out the window. That is the reason kit cars swapped to triangulated shapes in the tubular steel chassis.

As for the cost of parts for replica or genuine Ferrari lights and wheels - they aren't too high. For example genuine pattern wheels are available new for 695 GBP a set in 14" or 16". Second hand ones are cheaper. Light lenses are 40-80 GBP and badges are 30-40GBP with hub badges at 6.50. Alfa V6s are pretty cheap too and not that pricey to rebuild compared with Rover or Ford. They have great reliability too. Do you see my bias showing
  #33  
Old 8th September 2011, 08:02
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You seem to have a good understanding of the engineering requirements for a good roadworthy kit rossnzwpi, as well as part cost.
Bias maybe but it makes sense and in truth if I were a company thinking of venturing into building cars then I would possibly go this route.
Firstly though I would go through all the variables on safety and how it could be achieved on a balance with cost & productivity.
The car I was offered by CR was part built unbeknown to me it had been in the process of being built for around 5 years. With no build log or part list this car for example has huge risk to safety issues. Companies have a duty of car to their customers to insure that what they sell is roadworthy and safe. There are documented cases of large car companies been sued for failing safety on their vehicles hense recent recalls by Toyota for example.
Kit companies get round problems with testing by using doner cars and simply retaing the cars identity, a potential safety lottery should the the cars geometry be changed. I understand as I said earlier that there needs to be a balance between safety, cost and productivity but sadly it seems lacking in to many kit car companies. From what I have read on here and a conversation with another forum friend it seems dehavillland motors are attempting to proceed in the right direction. Building a prototype, producing a build manual and so on. I don't know but imagine the engine choice is pragmatic rather than the optimum or preferred.
I have still to here of a customer of Classic Replicas who has a car on the road. I know they don't have a prototype and no manual exists so although they offer a more replicated car it is a worthless offer at the moment.
One final thing. You can always fit the wheels, badges & certain details after you buy the car can't you?
  #34  
Old 8th September 2011, 21:09
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Hi Inspace, I don't have any history with the various Dino replica manufacturers, apart from asking for a brochure way back in the 80s from DGT. I understand that there are a few problems with the way some of them seem to have been doing business from what I have read on this forum. I absolutely agree with you regarding some of the business-related issues. Surely a company has a duty to:
design a kit and car with due regard to its use and safety
test a prototype
place deposit funds in trust until the car is delivered and not use those funds to manufacture any other car
produce instructions for how to build the car
furthermore it would be good business to have a demonstrator (or at least a customer-built one)
maintain open and honest communication with customers about progress and have a contractual basis for dealing with delays and the return of deposits held in trust should delivery be impossible or delayed beyond an agreed date

Downunder in New Zealand, where I am, the law for low volume vehicles requires sign off of the design and build by a qualified engineer. I don't know if the UK has that design sign off requirement?

I would strongly recommend customers start pressing for more protections and, should things turn to custard, go to a lawyer quickly. This actually protects manufacturers too - nobody wants long drawn-out public fights which are harmful to reputation and sales.

all the best
Ross in NZ
  #35  
Old 8th September 2011, 21:56
DeHavilland Motor Co DeHavilland Motor Co is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossnzwpi View Post
Hi Terry at DeHavilland Motor Co. I've just had a look at your pictures on Facebook and I must say congratulations! There are some fascinating pictures there and it is very refreshing to see a manufacturer being so open and transparent. Long may you continue to keep open communication with your customers and potential customers.

I have a couple of questions for you from my perspective. These are meant to be supportive. I have always loved the original Dino for its looks and its Italian sporting and racing spirit. I also love the idea of kit cars - taking a fresh concept and a pick and mix bag of production car parts. Messing around in the garage to create something you can be proud of is as a big a part of the fun as the driving and camaraderie of the kit car community. Questions:

1. The body looks good and the chassis well-made but have you taken any professional advice about chassis strength and torsional rigidity? Using subframes and suspension from the MG will ensure well-developed structure and suspension, steering, braking for those parts but the structure joining them will need to be ultra stiff and strong to work well.
2. Have you thought about getting closer to replica look, perhaps as an option? Maybe original style 5x108 Cromodora wheels? Real Carello lights? The correctness of the detail look is important to me although I know many others aren't concerned about such details.
3. I like the V6 option idea. Let's not forget the Dino was born out of a plan to homologate the formula 1 Ferrari V6 engine so it could be used in F2. Maybe Rover/MG V6 engines would be in the right spirit (my choice would be an Alfa V6 because its "in the family" so to speak). Powerful, sonorous, high-revving sporty delivery....

All the best for your venture
Ross, in NZ
Hi Ross

Many thanks for the kind words. Regarding the chassis i have had an experienced engineer look at the designs and the materials used and he seemed more than happy if anything he believed that possibly the chassis could be of smaller gauge as we are using 3mm wall thickness on both the center backbone an side rails an other items in the chassis, a typical seven type roadster would only be 1.5mm.
Regarding the use of OEM parts no issues there but i do want the cars to be attainble and affordable. The use of original 246 Chromo wheels has be a bit of a mare to be honest as they are a 5 stud fitment and a 14" rim. because of the odd rim size tyres are quite expensive and the MG has a four stud pattern which would mean custom hubs to be machined to mach the original wheels as well as new discs all round. Here i have come up with what i hope is a sutable compromise utilising fiat 124 Cromo wheels that are a 4 stud pattern similar to the MGTF and have a 0 offset so no need for hub spacers and adapters also being a 15" rim tyres are far more reasonable. Might be a possiblity in the future to get the 246 in a four stud pattern but will have to see.
V6 for defo in the future looking at the honda V6 as both very powerfull, light and very reliable. Having owned a couple of Alfas i know how much parts are and also how often they like to have tantrums. Every day usability is the key here as the most frustrating thing would be to have such a pretty car in the garage instead of enjoying it every day.

Hope this wasnt to long winded thanks again for all the support guys.

Regards

Terry
  #36  
Old 9th September 2011, 20:49
rossnzwpi rossnzwpi is offline
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Default re: torsional rigidity

Hi, great to hear the depth of your design thoughts on the car! When it comes to the chassis there are two separate issues. One is the basic strength - and yours looks to be made of sturdy stuff.

The other is resistance to twisting. A 7-esque chassis is essentially a box shape (with rails at each edge). Each rectangular side to the box has a diagonal member to give the resistance to twisting and spread the loads. It is the shape and especially the triangulation that allows the steel tubing to be so thin. It would be disastrous to use such light tubes in a car without that triangulation.

The original Dino chassis was more rudimentary and had big thick tubes instead of a light, well-engineered frame. It did have a certain amount of box-like shape and triangulation in places though.

I wonder if the chassis in your pictures Terry has any triangulation or even height? It looks like a flat platform. All twisting loads would be transferred to the body shell - with resulting stress fractures in the GRP. Any twist would also compromise the geometry of the MG suspension which is designed to work in a stiff chassis.

These are all development problems which I hope your car will have sorted - it looks like your venture deserves to do very well indeed.
cheers
Ross in NZ
  #37  
Old 11th September 2011, 20:26
DeHavilland Motor Co DeHavilland Motor Co is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossnzwpi View Post
Hi, great to hear the depth of your design thoughts on the car! When it comes to the chassis there are two separate issues. One is the basic strength - and yours looks to be made of sturdy stuff.

The other is resistance to twisting. A 7-esque chassis is essentially a box shape (with rails at each edge). Each rectangular side to the box has a diagonal member to give the resistance to twisting and spread the loads. It is the shape and especially the triangulation that allows the steel tubing to be so thin. It would be disastrous to use such light tubes in a car without that triangulation.

The original Dino chassis was more rudimentary and had big thick tubes instead of a light, well-engineered frame. It did have a certain amount of box-like shape and triangulation in places though.

I wonder if the chassis in your pictures Terry has any triangulation or even height? It looks like a flat platform. All twisting loads would be transferred to the body shell - with resulting stress fractures in the GRP. Any twist would also compromise the geometry of the MG suspension which is designed to work in a stiff chassis.

These are all development problems which I hope your car will have sorted - it looks like your venture deserves to do very well indeed.
cheers
Ross in NZ
Hi Ross

Regarding our chassis you are spot on in mentioning that it is a flat platform and all the twisting loads will be transferred into the body. This is exactly how we have designed the car, essentially we are using the floorpan stucture to link the MGTF subframes to the body an have created a semi monocoque design. The body will have a mixture various items increasing its strenth and rigidity through the use of internal walls and formers, gussets and other trianglation all linked to the floorpan and MGTF subframes. I hope this gives you better understanding of our design derection of the car.
Always good to hear peoples feedback and thanks for the input.

Regards

Terry
  #38  
Old 1st December 2011, 19:02
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Just an update, still no joy with Classic Replicas and Gordon Ainsby.
The warning still stands do not buy from this company my experience is bad and at least 3 other customers who have contacted me have suffered.
Myself and the previous owner of the car that I was sold visited Gordon Ainsby and found it covered in plastic stuck on top of a container.
Although Gordon sold the car to me he did not offer any of the previous customers money back. Now he has my money and I have no car.
We tried to identify the car by its chassis No and non of us could find it, nor could Gordon or an I dependant witness that we took along.
Why would you put the engine and body on the car without a chassis No?
I also have in my possession further damming evidence of the way this Company operates in the form of a eye witness document
I am willing to share this with any genuine enthusiasts in the hope it will help them.
Also I am still looking for a satisfied customer or anyone who has one of Classic Replicas vehicles according to Gordon there are 20 on the road.
Do you own one? Know someone who does? Have you had dealings with this company please come forward and join the rest of us.
  #39  
Old 12th December 2011, 08:49
Bikidude Bikidude is offline
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I visited Classic Replicas with Inspace
Gordon Ainsby was most upset that I had noted on this website that he had sold my dino and asked me to remove this comment.
He informed me that I did not have a contract with him and under his terms and conditions this allowed him to retain all monies
He also informed me that the car had also been sold to someone else, previously, to it being sold to Inspace.
I am also in possession of an eyewitness report into the practises within the workshop
The fact that the dino is now wrapped in plastic and parked on the workshop roof with no plan to resolve this situation. All options explored by myself and Inspace were rejected.
I was also informed that the comments on this website have not impacted on this business
I have always been a believer that you only get what you pay for, however it doesn't always appear to be the case
  #40  
Old 12th December 2011, 09:40
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I'm no contract lawyer, but if the man insists you have no contract with him, then it's hard to see how his terms and conditions could apply.

Or, the other way round, if his terms and conditions do apply, you'd imagine there must be something contractual between you. Isn't there a law that makes unfair contract terms invalid?

Good luck, anyway.
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