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Go Back   Madabout Kitcars Forum > Mad Build Area > Sammio Builds and discussions

Sammio Builds and discussions Sammio bodied car builds and specials

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  #2201  
Old 23rd December 2015, 06:48
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The Morning After (The Night Before):
After my last post yesterday, I headed off to meet my mate in a pub and, thankfully, I was driving, so I couldn't drowned my sorrows.

As, prior to Mister Towed's post yesterday, I was actually feeling really happy with my progress on the rear arch.

Then either of these two images would sum up what I thought had just happened to my project, as I was really gutted.





- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Mr T - Don't get me wrong, I'm much rather know if I am making a mistake.

So thanks for taking the time to point out something that would never have occurred to me.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Pops - Thanks for your reply too, as I saw it just before I went to bed and it did give me hope.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Wheel Alignment - General:
Part of my "master plan" always involved getting some professional help for a few areas prior to the car's first MOT.

Getting the wheels aligned was one of those areas, but I clearly didn't think through the possible impact of changing the set up.

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Wheel Alignment - Spitfire vs. Herald:
After some internet searching, I now know more about "toe in" today than I did yesterday.

This page showed what the set up should be, but I have no way of telling what set up I have now.

http://www.triumphspitfire.com/align.html

It also highlights the shims (in red) that could be used to adjust the radius arm position.

The next thing to point out is that the radius arm on the Spitfire is attached to the body shell, not the chassis.

This is GaryH's Herald chassis, as I remembered he fitted adjustable arms on his car.



This is Swifty's Spitfire chassis, with the arms attached to his home made frame.



I used the original Cordite rear framework, but added a "hollow" to the floor for the arm bracket bolts.



And this is a recent photo showing the radius arm holding the hub in place.



With hindsight, clearly adjusting the radius arm would change the position of the wheel in the arch.

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What Next?
If I get the chance, I will add a skim of normal body filler to the bottom corner of the rear passenger arch.

As if the whole arch is actually in the wrong place, re-doing a small bit of filler work would be the least of my worries.

That might be a convenient point to down tools for Christmas and worry about everything else another day.

Cheers, Paul.
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  #2202  
Old 23rd December 2015, 07:16
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As you say, the Herald/Vitesse rear suspension uses shims at the chassis end of the radius arms.

I set mine up with a bit of toe in at the back to give stability at speed and adjusted the front to have a fair bit of toe out to give agility. I've never taken mine anywhere near an alignment rig, I just set the whole thing up by trial and error until I liked the handling characteristics, just like real racing drivers do.

The reason I mentioned setting the back suspension up before aligning the wheelarches is that one of the rear radius arms on my donor was set to give toe out (it appeared that someone had welded in replacement rear outrigger at a jaunty angle) while the other had a lot of toe in (ultimate drift car setup?) and the wheels moved about half an inch each when I set it up properly. That would have altered the 'fit' of the wheels in the arches if I'd modified them to fit round the wheels.

I'm sure yours will be fine though...
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  #2203  
Old 23rd December 2015, 16:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Towed View Post
… I'm sure yours will be fine though...
Fingers crossed.

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Winding Down:
Spend the morning getting the last of the food & drink for Christmas Day & have already started setting the dining table.
( Not quite to the high standard of Carson at Downtown, but at least we make a bit of an effort. )

This way Christmas Eve should be more relaxed time with the family, rather than the "last minute" panics of previous years.

Similarly, this will be my last bit of work on the car before the big day, although there wasn't much to do.

I added a layer of normal body filler to the bottom corner of the arch.



Then skimmed the return edge to help soften some of the current undulations.



Once that had set sufficiently, I sanded it all down.





Before giving it a dusting of etch primer.



Whilst the thought that the wheel position may change still haunts me, at least it looks good for now.



[Glass Half Full] Plus my plywood template technique worked well too. [/Stiff Upper Lip]

As I was putting the sanding stuff away, the moon was out overhead.



So it seems like a good time to test a fire log in the fireplace since we had the chimney fully swept a while back.



We'll put another one on for Christmas, as this is as close to a real fire as you can get in London.

Merry Christmas Everyone!

Take care, Paul.
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  #2204  
Old 26th December 2015, 06:45
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Glad Tidings Of Comfort & Joy:

'Twas the night before Christmas..
…and there was a gap between our traditional watching of "The Muppets Christmas Carol" and reading of "Bear Stays Up For Christmas".

Unfortunately, I was out voted 3-1 and this gap was filled with "Coronation Street".

Thankfully, this is where the relatively new tradition of a lap top & Google Images helped me pass 30 minutes.

By now, I'd given a LOT of thought to the prospect of my rear wheel moving relative to my re-profiled arch.

The good news is that, in the nicest possible way, I simply no longer care.

That is not to say I am happy with my school boy error, but rather the whole car is already riddled with symmetry/alignment issues.

So I have to come back to the "creating a good first impression" approach and ignore any lingering OCD tendencies.

Here are just a few photos from Google Images, where the cars all look the part of a 1950s racer...

Sammio Spyder



Sammio Chevaux



"Vanessa"



Whilst I don't remember seeing the first two photos before, I've always had a soft spot for AndyP57's car.

The key thing for me is that whilst the arches are not "perfect" in any of these examples, I'd still be very happy to be to reach this standard of build.

So I plan to re-shape the rear arch on the driver's side in the same way as I've just done the passenger side.
( Which in turn allows me to "seal off" the inner arches and then add the cockpit panelling. )

If the wheels subsequently move within the arch, when they are eventually professionally aligned, so be it.

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Christmas Day:
Good to see another couple of nice car books under the tree this year.





The day itself went well, although I somehow managed to forget to plate the sprouts, despite cooking them.

Unfortunately, by the evening I was struck down with a stinking head cold and hacking cough.

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Boxing Day:
I woke early coughing and am now sitting here with a Beechams, after a couple of glugs of cough mixture.

So after posting this update I am now going back to bed.

Take care, Paul.
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  #2205  
Old 26th December 2015, 12:10
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I would not worry too much Paul as your car may of been left standard with no major work being done prior to you buying it unlike Mr T's.

You can do a few quick checks yourself with string and four axles stands. Basically you will measure the difference from leading to trailing edge of the wheel rim, remember you need to measure to the vehicle center line and not to the opposite wheel as i have seen mentioned else where on the net.

Here's a good guide https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2UArcgxbp4 but if you search under "wheel alignment with string" there's lots of advice about and its easy to do yourself.

I also bought one of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gunson-770...4AAOSwjVVVg8yO to check and set castor and camber angles which you do before setting the tracking. Check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew87fLr6Omw that shows how to make an edge that you can then attach a castor camber tool to to give a greater accuracy if you wish, the rear camber is adjust with a spacer block under the rear leaf spring and the front camber by adding or removing shims between the wishbone and chassis, once again there is plenty of help guides on this subject.


Good luck matey and enjoy the rest of the holiday, those books look to be very interesting reading.

Last edited by swifty; 26th December 2015 at 12:19..
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  #2206  
Old 31st December 2015, 12:51
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Swifty - Thanks for the encouragement Tony and those wheel alignment links.

Unfortunately, my sloping driveway prevents me taking even the simplest of measurements with any confidence.

Thankfully, everything will be professionally aligned at a proper garage prior to the car's first MOT.

Only then will I know what I will have ended up with in terms of wheel alignment within the arch.

The key thing for me is that even if they don't look great, they will do to get me on the road, which has to be my main goal for 2016.

Then I can made a final decision on leaving them as they are, or "tweaking" them again, before I attempt to paint the car.

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2015 Fades Away:
I have been coughing ever since Christmas evening and am now completely knackered due to the impact this has on my sleep.

With no signs of improvement using "over the counter" stuff, I had to see the GP this morning to get some more powerful antibiotics.

Obviously, I have not been able to work on the car, when I had hoped to have at least started on the rear driver's side arch.

Instead, I will continue resting and look forward to restarting some time later in January.

Until then, take care, Paul.
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  #2207  
Old 31st December 2015, 17:25
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Wish you well Paul
I too have been ill over Christmas, never knew a hot tub could do so much damage to my health.
Happy 2016 - looking forward to seeing the Cordite on the road
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  #2208  
Old 4th January 2016, 20:11
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Thank you for giving us all a very detailed window into your build over 2015, i wish you all the best for getting your health back and I look forward to seeing your progress (and hopefully finally saying hello in-person!) in 2016!

Dave
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  #2209  
Old 5th January 2016, 16:06
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Roadster & Dave - Thanks for the good wishes chaps, thankfully the antibiotics have finally kicked in.

I really hope that 2016 will be the year this car finally makes it onto the road, even if it is just in primer.

Which would be a great excuse to get out & about to meet some of the people who have supported this build over the years.

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2016 - A Slow Start:
Whilst I'm still not 100%, at least I can now spend more of the night actually sleeping rather than coughing my guts out.

So absolutely no chance of doing any car work outside at the moment, which is leaving me a bit stir crazy.

And thinking too much about wheel alignment and wheel arches while "medicated" is probably not a good idea either.

Still, here are a few more wheel arch examples I found…









All of which are helping to convince me that I should not worry about the wheel arches at all, as the overall car will still look OK/period.

The harsh reality it that my sloping drive makes it impossible for me to check this properly myself.

The alternative is to incur the extra cost required to transport the car to somewhere that could align the wheels for me.

Now I've already budgeted for transport, at some point, to a Triumph specialist to set up the engine, sort out the clutch, etc.

Originally, my plan was that this specialist would also carry out the first MOT, allowing me to drive it home.

But the reality is there is a ton of small jobs required before I can get an MOT, so I would be putting myself under a lot of pressure.

So I have now come up with an alternative plan that, I hope, will allow me to make progress in the right areas:

Phase 1 - "Home":
- Reshape the rear driver's side arch.
- Extend the rear inner arches to meet the body shell.
- "Seal off" the remaining gaps at the rear end of the car.
- Fit the internal cockpit panels.

Phase 2 - "Away":
- Triumph specialist help, including wheel alignment.

Phase 3 - "Home":
- Reshape the front arches and extend the sides of the body shell.
- Complete all remaining work required to get the car on the road.

Overall, I think the above is a good compromise, especially as far as the front arches are concerned.

As I need the front arches to accommodate the wheels turning, as well as going up and down.

Plus there will be a serious amount of "cutting & shutting" required to the bonnet/body shell at the front.

So it makes a lot of sense not to start that until I know the front wheels are in their final "resting place".

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It was actually this photo that really got me thinking about all the front arch reconstruction work required.



As, initially, I couldn't work out why the gap "excess" was not bigger.

Given this Ribble "Cordite" Demonstrator was also running 13" wheels (not sure of tyre profile) and they looked "lost" in the arches.



Eventually, it dawned on me that my bonnet already sits much lower than the demonstrator's.
( Following all the other wholesale butchery I have already completed. )

I couldn't find a "head on" shot, but in the photo below, you can see the bottom of the bonnet opening sits just below the cross member.



Whereas, you can see here that my bonnet opening sits much lower compared to the same cross member.



Sorting out this whole front arch opening area will make a HUGE difference to how the car looks & should be a major improvement compared to the original.

So it is the right decision to delay the start of the work required in this area until everything is where it should be.

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Whilst I haven't actually made any progress on the build, I do feel slightly better that I have a plan in place.

Until next time, take care, Paul.
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  #2210  
Old 5th January 2016, 18:32
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Paul, the front wheelarch issue on the silver demonstrator is solely down to the way the bonnet is fitted. If it's put on with the nose too high you get that imbalance in the front arches, in fact, my first fit of the bonnet resulted in just that problem -



I didn't like the way it looked so I moved the bonnet forward about an inch and down as far as I could get it without fouling anything (I'd already added my scoops by then) leaving it like this -



That just left the flat spot in the nearside arch to sort out -











Et voila!

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  #2211  
Old 6th January 2016, 19:12
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Mr T - Thanks for that.

As the photos from your build remind me of all the work you had to do to get the car looking the way you wanted.

And clearly your final car was well worth all the effort involved.



I think production of the Cordite had already been stopped by the time the Ribble Demonstrator was on sale at Stoneleigh.
( So they gave up trying to get the bonnet to hinge and simply bolted it in place and cut out an access hatch. )

Note: Quite by chance, I found this German site today with more photos of that silver demonstrator:
http://kfzoo.com/Sammio-Spyder-Cordi...ot252207991968

Anyway, by stealing your "scissor" hinge design, I was able to set my bonnet much lower that the demonstrator.

With the added benefit that the bonnet opens fully, without doubt, one of my proudest achievements on this build.

Although my use of the Spitfire bulkhead instead of the original Cordite set up meant the bonnet came up well short of the revised body work.



But given that the rear of the bonnet had the wrong profile too, that was the least of my worries.

The reality is that, despite the ridiculous amount of work required, I am very happy with the overall look I have managed to achieve.
( If you remember, this time last year, the driver's wing was still separate from the rest of the bonnet. )



Once all the wheel arches have finally been taken care of, I should be left with a car that evokes the spirit of the '50s.

Cheers, Paul.
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  #2212  
Old 15th January 2016, 21:49
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Health Check:
Without doubt, I am over the worst of this annoying cough, but it still refuses to go completely & lingers on.

So I have continued to avoid any car work outside, especially as the temperature has noticeably dropped recently.

One thing I plan to do in 2016 is to get back into shape, as being over weight & under fit has not helped my recovery.

A few years ago I actually completed middle distance triathlons (1.9km swim, 85km cycle & 21km run) in around 5h 35m.

But now the days of running a half marathon before work seem long gone (no, really I did, although admittedly, just the once).

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Back To Work… Back To Reality…
My other big news is that I started another temporary job last Tuesday, which should hopefully last until March.

With a bit of luck, it may also lead to a more long term arrangement, which would be a good thing for me.

It is with a small engineering consultancy firm and photos of my car build formed part of the interview.

( As I'd previously worked with one of their engineers, who pitched me as an accountant with a difference. )

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Next Steps:
Even though I will have less time to spend on the car, I still aim to stick with my previously posted plan…

Phase 1 - "Home":
- Reshape the rear driver's side arch.
- Extend the rear inner arches to meet the body shell.
- "Seal off" the remaining gaps at the rear end of the car.
- Fit the internal cockpit panels.

Phase 2 - "Away":
- Triumph specialist help, including wheel alignment.

Phase 3 - "Home":
- Reshape the front arches and extend the sides of the body shell.
- Complete all remaining work required to get the car on the road.

Obviously, when all this will happened is another story, but lets just see how it goes.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Until next time, take care, Paul.
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  #2213  
Old 22nd January 2016, 14:57
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Hi Paul! Long time no coms! My fault.

Coming along nicely by the way.

Ref the rear wheel alignment, it may be worth getting the adjustable rear strut things, I did,and it made things so much easier.

Having dumped my rear spring down a couple of inches, (awesome negative effect!)
I needed a a fair bit of messing to get the toe in correct, which was made so easy with having fitted the adjustable struts.

It is very straightforward to do, and you would have no problem.

I had a lot of negative comment from locals about adverse tyre wear, due to the negative rear wheel arrangement, but after 650 miles or so, there was no apparent adverse wear at all, and the handling was really good.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do!


Scottie.
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  #2214  
Old 22nd January 2016, 17:57
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Paul hows about this for positive camber with excessive jacking effect, how things can go wrong if you don't get it right.

jacking_spitfire.jpg

The driver must of asked for a change of underwear after that run.


At the minute i am looking at the set up on my car and have found a good simply guide on setting the suspension up on a spitfire which i will post the link soon.

Last edited by swifty; 22nd January 2016 at 18:54..
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  #2215  
Old 22nd January 2016, 18:31
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Jacking issue was much worse on the Herald and mk1 Vitesse due to the extra weight and higher centre of gravity -



Not a problem on a Spyder though, you just don't get the same lean angles and weight transfer.
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  #2216  
Old 23rd January 2016, 07:50
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Scottie, Mr T & Swifty - Thanks chaps.

To avoid any problems on the road, I am definitely going to leave the wheels to be set up by a professional.

So if they need to fit an adjustable rod (similar to GaryH's in Post #2201 above) that is fine by me.

Funnily enough, I was reminded of this issue again, when I saw Micky1Mo's solution for his Moss Monaco/Spitfire build.



As long as everything ends up pointing in the right direction, & with all the correct angles, I don't mind how it is achieved.

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The Cough That Keeps On Giving:

You couldn't make this up…

I thought I was finally getting over the worse of this, when a vicious coughing fit last Sunday left me seeking medical treatment!
( I did try to "man up" to the pain for a few hours, but had to admit defeat and my wife took me to the "walk in" clinic. )

Turns out all this coughing has left me with internally bruised ribs on my left hand side.

So no car work this weekend either, as my ribs are still sore, meaning a whole month has now gone by without doing anything.

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Winter Working:

This was the scene outside last Sunday.



Which provides some consolation to being ill at the moment, as clearly the weather outside isn't ideal for working on the car anyway.

So at least I am keeping warm working in an office at the moment and the extra funds will cover the Triumph Specialist too.

In fact, last year I was working indoors during the height of Summer, missing out on car work during all those long, warm days.

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Until next time, whenever that may be, take care, Paul.
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  #2217  
Old 23rd January 2016, 08:16
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Paul, you'd better hurry up and mend as my deadline to get this on the road -



...is now April 2017. The race is on!

For anyone reading this who doesn't immediately recognise my new project, it's a 1960 Ferrari 250 GT replica that's just missing a few parts and waiting for paint. Obvious once you know.
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  #2218  
Old 23rd January 2016, 09:55
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That awful tuck-under thing was cured by fitting the "swing-spring" rear suspension, and although my donar Spitfire was an
early mark IV, before it came to me it had been retro-fitted with such a spring.
Giving it a few more degrees of negative camber, by lowering the spring in the uprights, really sorts the problem out.

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]
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  #2219  
Old 24th January 2016, 10:58
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Mr T - I hope I am fully mended soon, as this has turned into the longest running illness I've ever had!

As for the fact that you expect your Tribute 250 SWB project to be finished by April 2017…

Well, two things spring to mind:

#1 - I can't wait for your build thread to start covering the actual construction work.

#2 - The risk of you completely your second project before I finish my first is real (especially if I delay final paint).

In fact, to misquote Frazer, "I'm doomed!"





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Scottie - I remember seeing your suspension mods at the time & thinking I wouldn't dare to do something like that!

I don't mind "having a go" as some things, but apart from fitting a lowering block, I'm leaving my suspension to the professionals.

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Cheers, Paul.
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  #2220  
Old 30th January 2016, 19:57
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It's All Relative:
Whilst I might moan about my lack of progress since Christmas, spare a thought for this poor chap in America...

Regular readers may know that I love this '33 Hot Rod kit.



Well, this particular builder had amassed 3,500 hours on his build to reach this point (the body work is out of shot).
( There was a lot of bespoke fabrication similar to Swifty's approach. )



Whilst working in his garage, a stray spark caused this.



Leaving his build looking like this.



By the sounds of it, he was very lucky to escape the fire alive and seems very positive about "Build 2.0".

He figures that second time around he could save 2,000 hours based on the lessons learnt.

In addition, he has decided to build a completely different body shell in aluminium from scratch.

And this is what he is aiming for.



I wish him all the best.

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Also from the same American website, someone else posted this video from the 1961 Jaguar Mk2 Production Line.

https://youtu.be/lKJPFRNO344

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Until next time, Paul.
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