Are you madabout kit cars      
 "We've Got Kit Cars Covered" Information about Madabout-Kitcars.com Contact Madabout-Kitcars.com         Home of UK kit cars - madabout-kitcars.com Various kit car write ups All the latest kit car news Kit car related and general discussion

Search
Manufacturers
Kit Cars
Kit Car Data sheets
Picture Gallery
SVA Knowledgebase
Clubs & Communities
Build cost estimator
Kit cars for sale
Knowledge Base 
KitcarUSA.com
Classic-Kitcars.com
 

Go Back   Madabout Kitcars Forum > Mad Build Area > Tribute Automotive Builds

Tribute Automotive Builds Discuss your Tribute kit build

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 21st March 2016, 13:44
PTL PTL is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Millom, Cumbria
Posts: 10
PTL is on a distinguished road
Default A352 rear suspension

Ok, ladies and gentlemen, forgive me but this post is going to ramble a bit . . .

Having finally packed the offspring of to university, sold the house and moved to somewhere both nicer and cheaper than before, I had a bit of money in my pocket. Fancying a little roadster I began looking at everything from MGs to Sylvas. The Tribute A352 really caught my attention since it's very, very pretty and doesn't need an IVA.
Problem solved, you might think. Well yes, but there is a problem. As a child of the 70s I started driving in the late 80s. My personal car history started with a showroom fresh Nova SR (OK, it seemed hot to me having learned in a 1 litre Metro) and ended with a somewhat modified Alfa 33. After that it was company cars and motorbikes. The company cars were all Focus' and Octavias until very recently.
As you will note, all my cars have been Front Wheel Drive.
And this is where the worries begin. I'm quite competent in a FWD car and enjoy a brisk drive. If it goes a bit pear shaped I know what to do in a FWD car.
Basically I'm nervous about going RWD.
Especially RWD with suspension as crude as is found on a Triumph Spitfire.
Even the GT6 Rotoflex set up offends me from an engineering point of view and doesn't exactly fill me with confidence from a drivers point of view either.
So, being the sort of person who thinks too much and does too little I started wondering if the rear suspension could be replaced with something else. A quick check of dimensions ruled out grafting the rear subframe off an MX5 to the triumph chassis so perhaps a 3 or 5 link set up using a midget axle could be grafted on? I discounted that as it would mean major surgery to create somewhere to anchor the links and the springs. I started looking for small, rear drive cars that might donate entire rear subframes but have you any idea just how narrow a Spitfire is compared to a modern car? Even the DeDion system on the Smart Car is too wide!
Anyway, by the time I'd got to this point a major crisis had blown up and I was, if not skint, no longer flush with cash so my plans were put on hold.
Then, one evening in march, whilst lying in the bath I suddenly remembered the old GTM coupe. If you're not familiar with it, it used a Mini front subframe at the rear to create a mid-engined sports car. A sort of British Leyland X1/9, if you like. I grabbed my phone, put it down again, dried my hands, grabbed my phone and started googling. Turns out that the front track of a Mini is similar to the rear track of a Spitfire. It's got a double wishbone set up and, thanks to Mr Cox and GTM, the parts exist to lock the steering and fit a handbrake. Ok, the subframe would need bracing and drive shafts to connect mini hubs to Spitfire diff might be tricky but it might just be possible to graft a mini front end to a Spitfire arse end creating a chassis with a suspension system that I might trust not to kill me.

Post Script: My current company car, due to a weird series of events involving bankrupt Dutch companies and worried engineers, is a Toyota HiLux.
I am learning to enjoy wet roundabouts.
The term "A dab of oppo" now means something to me in a practical sense.
Reply With Quote
Available from eBay
  #2  
Old 21st March 2016, 14:23
oxford1360 oxford1360 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,145
oxford1360 is on a distinguished road
Default

Hi PTL,

Welcome to the forum. Like you, I like the A352.

If I were as concerned as you I would buy a Spitfire and try it out. I don't think you will be disappointed. A well-sorted Spit is surprisingly predictable, easy and cheap to maintain, and is a joy to drive.

If you can't live with it, just sell it. If you like it, get that A352 order placed.

A mechanically simple rear-wheel drive car can be great fun. Just get used to it before you try and drift your exit from a roundabout.

Grafting a Mini subframe to a Spitfire will require chassis modifications which means, "Go to IVA, directly to IVA, do not pass fun."
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 21st March 2016, 18:30
PTL PTL is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Millom, Cumbria
Posts: 10
PTL is on a distinguished road
Smile

"Grafting a Mini subframe to a Spitfire will require chassis modifications which means, "Go to IVA, directly to IVA, do not pass fun."

Why? You can graft a custom designed five link (Frontline Racing) or independent system (Hoyle) onto the back of an MGB and you don't need an IVA. There was someone selling a double wishbone set up for GT6s but I can't remember who it was. The chassis was cut off and terminated with two, four bolt flanges. The new suspension was assembled as a unit and bolted onto the flanges. Again, no IVA required.

As for trying out a Spitfire, yes, I would definitely do that.
And all the time the rear suspension would bother me even if I never encountered anything whilst driving it to make me worry.
I have some irrational prejudices (they have to be irrational otherwise they aren't proper prejudices). These include:
  • Porsche 911s (a triumph of development over design. They're all wrong! Rear engine! Aaaarrrgggh!)
  • Griffon engined Spitfires (they just look wrong!)
  • Subaru Imprezas (Do you have to pass an arse test before you can have one?)
  • Range Rovers (See Subaru Impreza entry but a different type of arse)
  • Turbocharged petrol engines (I drove an Escort Cosworth at Donnington once and hated the lag)
I think you can add swing axles with hooke type UJs to the list.:-)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 21st March 2016, 18:42
oxford1360 oxford1360 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,145
oxford1360 is on a distinguished road
Default

In that case, yes, grafting a Mini subframe to a Spitfire chassis is the perfect solution and could probably be done in a weekend.

There won't be any problems with IVA.

Best of luck.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 21st March 2016, 19:12
PTL PTL is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Millom, Cumbria
Posts: 10
PTL is on a distinguished road
Default

Ah. Sarcasm.

Thank you so much. . .

But there wouldn't be any problems with IVA.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 21st March 2016, 19:14
PTL PTL is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Millom, Cumbria
Posts: 10
PTL is on a distinguished road
Default

. . . and should anyone be interested, here's a link to the GT6 coil over conversion that I couldn't remember the name of earlier.

http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/f...-rear-end-kit/

It's nice but since it uses rose joints it's a track thing and not really for road use.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 21st March 2016, 19:47
Paul L's Avatar
Paul L Paul L is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wembley, London
Posts: 4,945
Paul L is on a distinguished road
Default

PTL – Welcome to the forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PTL View Post
… The Tribute A352 really caught my attention since it's very, very pretty and doesn't need an IVA…
Just to be clear…

The Tribute A352 kit doesn’t need an IVA if you stick to the DVLA’s re-body rules.

These allow you to keep the registration number of the donor Spitfire.

However, to qualify you must keep an “original and unmodified chassis”.

If you cut off the rear end of the chassis (like the photos in the link you posted) then all bets are off, sorry.

Good luck, Paul.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 21st March 2016, 19:53
Triumph Special Triumph Special is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 161
Triumph Special is on a distinguished road
Default

However much it might offend you, don't dismiss a Rotoflex rear end. They're very good indeed, especially with Konis and a carbon spring. Denying the world of another gloriously pretty GT6 would be a shame, but happily all the bits you need are available from Canley Classics, etc.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 21st March 2016, 19:53
obr obr is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 84
obr is on a distinguished road
Default

Good evening.

I think the IVA thing can be quite confusing.

The way I look at it is that I could cut the rear out of my road car, fit a bike engine in the back, move the fuel tank and do anything I like as long as from the outside it looks boring.

Try and do the same to a car which you are grafting a new body onto and you'll be heading to the IVA office.

You could obviously convert the car to an A352 and then do the suspension, but that could be a long way around.

My final thoughts however are that whatever you do you might get away with it, but as soon as you need your insurance you'll be told it is invalid because your chassis has been modified!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 21st March 2016, 20:02
Paul L's Avatar
Paul L Paul L is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wembley, London
Posts: 4,945
Paul L is on a distinguished road
Default

PS

Sorry I should have said you can remove the odd, non structural, brackets.

I am using a Spitfire donor on my rebody kit and was able to remove the bumper brackets.

I supplied photos to the DVLA and got the new V5C.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 21st March 2016, 20:38
PTL PTL is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Millom, Cumbria
Posts: 10
PTL is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by obr View Post

You could obviously convert the car to an A352 and then do the suspension, but that could be a long way around.

My final thoughts however are that whatever you do you might get away with it, but as soon as you need your insurance you'll be told it is invalid because your chassis has been modified!
I was thinking of conversion to A352 and then suspension mods. Once you've passed (or not been required to take) the IVA then you can modify away to your heart's content. This seems to be a regular thing with some kitcars. Build it with minimal electrics and no windscreen, get it through IVA and then add period switches etc that wouldn't pass IVA when you complete the car after its been tested.
And add a windscreen.

Of course the initial "bolt / weld a mini subframe to your small chassis Triumph" wouldn't involve cutting the end of the chassis away like the full race set up posted later . . .
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 21st March 2016, 20:40
PTL PTL is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Millom, Cumbria
Posts: 10
PTL is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triumph Special View Post
However much it might offend you, don't dismiss a Rotoflex rear end. They're very good indeed, especially with Konis and a carbon spring. Denying the world of another gloriously pretty GT6 would be a shame, but happily all the bits you need are available from Canley Classics, etc.
Indeed, and it is probably the way I should go. I shouldn't want to cut up a GT6 so unless I came across one with a very sound chassis and a completely rotten body I wouldn't go down that route.

Think I'd still want a CV joint conversion though. :-)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 21st March 2016, 20:51
Lucky@LeMans Lucky@LeMans is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,858
Lucky@LeMans is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PTL View Post
I was thinking of conversion to A352 and then suspension mods. Once you've passed (or not been required to take) the IVA then you can modify away to your heart's content. This seems to be a regular thing with some kitcars. Build it with minimal electrics and no windscreen, get it through IVA and then add period switches etc that wouldn't pass IVA when you complete the car after its been tested.
And add a windscreen.

Of course the initial "bolt / weld a mini subframe to your small chassis Triumph" wouldn't involve cutting the end of the chassis away like the full race set up posted later . . .
You are right I think ! Once built and correctly registered you can do what you want ( tell your insurance if applicable ). It might not be in the spirit of IVA but who is to know after you have built your car and made subsequent mods ?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 21st March 2016, 22:05
seanick's Avatar
seanick seanick is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Emsworth
Posts: 810
seanick is on a distinguished road
Default

And after all that let's hope you are on real freindly terms with your MOT man. Since the rules changed (yes, last year sometime) the mechanics underneath have to match the bodywork on top, within reason.
How do I know? I have a freindly mot man who attends the annual mot testers conference!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 22nd March 2016, 09:43
Mick O'Malley Mick O'Malley is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 691
Mick O'Malley is on a distinguished road
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by PTL
Suspension as crude as is found on a Triumph Spitfire.
Even the GT6 Rotoflex set up offends me from an engineering point of view and doesn't exactly fill me with confidence from a drivers point of view either.

You could always fit a camber compensator, if you could find one - see pics below.

And don't forget that the humble Spitfire managed this! 1st & 2nd in class wasn't too shabby.....................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpepDRqcFCo

Attached Images
File Type: jpg CC Kit.JPG (28.3 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg CC.JPG (49.1 KB, 17 views)
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 25th March 2016, 09:45
Paul L's Avatar
Paul L Paul L is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wembley, London
Posts: 4,945
Paul L is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PTL View Post
...Once you've passed (or not been required to take) the IVA then you can modify away to your heart's content. This seems to be a regular thing with some kitcars. Build it with minimal electrics and no windscreen, get it through IVA and then add period switches etc that wouldn't pass IVA when you complete the car after its been tested...
Sorry (again), but please don't confuse changing minor things after an IVA with major modifications.

Yes, many people change their mirrors & switches, plus add spinners to their wheels, etc.

But none of their items form part of the car's identity in the eyes of the DVLA.

Whereas, the chassis is considered to be at the very heart of your registration number.

Note: The body shell isn't, which is why you can do the rebody in the first place.

Clearly, you can choose to chop, channel, "Z', etc. your chassis after a rebody, but them you have a radically altered car, which needs to be declared (& IVA tested) to be legal.

Yes, people make these chassis changes all the time, but it doesn't mean they are obeying the law.

Obviously you can do what you want, but I thought I'd better make it clear, having already responded to this thread.

Good luck, Paul.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 26th March 2016, 20:18
PTL PTL is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Millom, Cumbria
Posts: 10
PTL is on a distinguished road
Default

Chassis would be unchanged - 5 pts
Engine unchanged - 1 pt
Transmission unchanged - 2 pts
Steering unchanged - 2 pts

8 points needed to avoid an IVA - Assuming bolting a mini subframe to the chassis counts as axle/suspension changes rather than chassis change.

I think a trip to my local test centre before starting would be a good idea.

It does make me wonder how all those Ford Prefect hotrods running yank V8s, Volvo rear axles and front cross-members welded up from steel tube supporting home-made front suspensions that I wouldn't trust on a go-kart get onto the road.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 26th March 2016, 20:50
Paul L's Avatar
Paul L Paul L is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wembley, London
Posts: 4,945
Paul L is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PTL View Post
… Assuming bolting a mini subframe to the chassis counts as axle/suspension changes rather than chassis change…
Correct and the key difference to your earlier post is no mention of welding. You can bolt things to the chassis (I’ve bolted my internal frame work to my Spitfire chassis), but you can’t weld structural components. Again, you can weld on non-structural brackets (I’ve welded on two plates for my bonnet hinges).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PTL View Post
…It does make me wonder how all those Ford Prefect hotrods running yank V8s, Volvo rear axles and front cross-members welded up from steel tube supporting home-made front suspensions that I wouldn't trust on a go-kart get onto the road.
In a word, illegally. However, it does seem that the DVLA is starting to crack down on this following some issues with the identities of classic Bugattis. You can see here how one hot rod went from being on the road with no problems, to being taken off the road and needing an IVA before it can get back on the road.

http://www.rodsnsods.co.uk/forum/top...gh-biva-405393

Cheers, Paul.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 27th March 2016, 11:50
lancelot link's Avatar
lancelot link lancelot link is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: POOLE , DORSET
Posts: 2,200
lancelot link is on a distinguished road
Default

The IVA area is contradictory in places and very definitely designed to minimize car modification with regular updates to keep pressing down on our hobby.
As Paul has said , Hot Rods for years have been built and registered incorrectly . IVA or a version of it has been in place since the 90's but they have tightened it up in more recent times.
If VOSA chose to inspect any of them , or they were to be flagged up at MOT , they could be called to be inspected ..its going to happen more and more as time goes on .
Fitting a major subframe to your chassis WILL be an IVA issue whether bolted on or not.
I used to make a very small bolt on adaptor to fit a Beetle chassis years ago to reposition the front axle. I was fully within the regulations at the time but somewhere along the line someone questioned it with DVLA . DVLA traditionally err on the side of caution if they don't know the answer or find their regs contradict themselves , so they immediately reversed their decision on it being satisfactory and outlawed it by changing the wording of their regulations.
I worked quite closely with ACE when creating the Sammio range and my first 2 versions were deemed unsuitable although no major chassis mods had taken place. My internal framework was welded in place and not bolted on . This was deemed a major chassis mod at the time although no chassis spec had been altered . We had to bolt it on and bond it to the body in the build process so the body can be removed , technically , with the frame attached to it ...this deems it to be body bracing and not chassis bracing ...its all in the wording !!
The second issue was the rear outriggers . They serve no function at all in regards to structure and if you read the rules , removal or minor body mount modification is acceptable ..DVLA decided that removing the outriggers at the rear was a step too far , they can however be trimmed down in size .

A lot of people bend the regs or interpret them differently , but its important to be aware they aren't stupid and can reverse your decisions or put prohibitions on the worst cases . I know 2 Hot Rods in the last 15 years that have had prohibition notices on them , so its rare but it happens .
There was a local ish vehicle inspector who had a passion for Classic VW's ... he hated modified VW's he used to attend several shows OFF DUTY but make notes of reg. no's of vehicles he deemed to be illegally modified , primarily Beach Buggy's built recently on SWB pans and owners would get letters sent out by DVLA as a result ...He also was instrumental in Chesil having issues with the way they registered their 356 Speedsters a few years back and having to make changes ...so don't under estimate 'The Man' ....

Last edited by lancelot link; 27th March 2016 at 11:58..
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 27th March 2016, 14:39
Mister Towed's Avatar
Mister Towed Mister Towed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,205
Mister Towed is on a distinguished road
Default

Not really necessary in a very light car unless you're looking for out and out track day handling, but if you must, it seems anything's possible -

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/lghrnrm/tessapg2.htm

http://www.club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-b...0092897/s-all/

http://diskhero.com/prirace/gt6-rear-suspension.asp
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +0. The time now is 18:14.

copyright © madabout-kitcars.com 2000-2021
terms and conditions | privacy policy