Front indicators - MOT failure

[soporsche]

Hi guys, long time since the last post, I still have the car and its just going through a new MOT..
The car is based on a 1965 Herald and the MOT station have told me that they will not pass it with the indicators in the front headlight units (you know the type, I cant think of the model) and need to see separate indicators on front?!!
Now i believe the cars been previously MOTd and I wasnt aware of this. Anyone know the correct rules or had a similar situation.
Its likely that Ill just have to find and add some suitable period style units.

Thanks

[garyh]

Thats a shame, i wanted that style... hopefully T, might know about this?
Anyway, have you ever shown us pictures of your car?

[AndyP57]

Hi, according to the moT Manual,

Vehicles first used before 1 September 1965 may have direction indicators incorporated with stop lamps, or combined with side or rear lamps, in which case front indicators may be white and rear indicators red.

So with your car being 1965, it seems to depend upon how early in that year the car was first registered as I suppose if combined with side lamps and your side lamps are in the headlight shell, this applies? I'm prepared to be proven wrong but that's how I read it...

[soporsche]

Hi Gary, yes im a bit confused by the headlight situation with indicators, apparently it depends very much on the year i.e. up to 1964 anything goes, 1965 and on then more stringent.. according to this MOT station!
I havnt posted pics as the car has been dismantled and rebuilt over the last year at great time (and cost).. it was bought as a finished, just to be MOTd car... it wasnt!
New ignition - full lumenition system
Complete rewire - new loom and ancilliaries (all new)
Body off for plenty of chassis welding - now a good standard
New rear brakes and flexi's
Replacement seats in progress (old ones went missing!)
New rear lights
Fuel filler attached properly (it wasnt)
Drive shaft replaced
Steering re alligned and bits replaced
Engine re build
Bonnet re-attached (it wasnt properly)
Additional bracing added to frame for rigidity and frame re welded in places
Dash re wired (or wired for first time)
Custom exhaust - previous was just a pipe etc
New seatbelts (harnesses) as old ones not attatched properly and one came off in mechanics hand.

So, its currently not that pretty... as you will see above, very few of the jobs have been cosmetic, Im not going to harp on about the original build/safety as I take responsibility for buying a car on trust/without a good inspection... my fault, I havnt done it before and never will again.
Anyway... its been done right now and I will be able to drive it with confidence, its been fun and we are nearly there.
It will look used and period race style with a 'patina' as they say in the trade, it has a highly tunable spitfire 1300 on rollers as used by the Triumph racers coupled with adjustable suspension/springs as per historic triumph rally car.

I will post pics when its back with me and no doubt have some final questions before im done... That is if I keep it as new baby due literally any day and suspect it will end up a garage ornament if i do keep it.


As per the original indicators (front) any thoughts anyone on some smallish interesting period looking units? Someone has suggested the old beetle bullet style?

Thanks all

[soporsche]

Hi Andy, thanks for that.. I will dig out the docs when home and see exactly when in 65 it was registered. I feel Ive been lazy now for not checking that myself.

[Psycho pops]

I checked with my local MOT tester as this is exactly what I have planned for mine,
He said there would be no issue, so long as I fit an Amber bulb in the headlight unit.

Gary has had a car passed in this way previous too.

Incidently the tester stated that many modern cars ie the new Mini and I believe Polo fit the indicator within the headlamp area and he used this for reference against mine.

I guess its a lot of luck, didnt Daves car fail on cut down springs, where most others went un noticed..
Pops

[davecymru]

Originally Posted by Psycho pops

I
I guess its a lot of luck, didnt Daves car fail on cut down springs, where most others went un noticed..

Yup

Although since then i've checked the regs so i now know that cut-down springs are fine as long as they correctly re-seat themselves, which mine do.

From what's been seen here and my own experiences, I'd say that it's certainly worth our while travelling that little bit further in order to get a classic-savvy garage!


soporsche - there's no mention of you having to remove unsightly overspray, so there's a godsend at least!
Sorry, i thought i'd get this in before Towed

[Mister Towed]

This is half way down Schedule 7, part 1 of The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 -


(iii)Minimum separation distance between a front indicator and any dipped-beam headlamp or front fog lamp– .
(A)Fitted to a motor vehicle, other than a solo motor bicycle or a motor bicycle combination, first used on or after 1st April 1991: .

(a) in the case of a Category 1 indicator, 40 mm;
(b) in the case of a Category 1a indicator, 20 mm;
(c) in the case of a Category 1b indicator, no requirement


(B)Fitted to a solo motor bicycle or a motor bicycle combination in either case first used on or after 1st April 1986: .
100 mm



(C)Fitted to any other vehicle: .
No requirement

This indicates that your MOT tester has no grounds to fail your car on lack of separation between the indicators and headlights so long as it was first used before 1st April 1991.

As for the colour of the bulbs, I'd go with amber if you're putting them in the headlamp bowls, even if you could technically get away with white.

Sounds cool, love to see some pictures...

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/made

[soporsche]

Thanks guys, it definitely seems its down to the MOT station though this obviously should not be the case!

Dave - As for unsightly overspray.. surely its just that and as long as it doesnt affect the safety or normal operation of the car then...

I shouldnt worry, we put mine through with a temp bolted in seat, open holes where the roll hoop should be, no belts, and a few other 'unsightly' bits :-) ... using it as a final snagging list really before we put it through for real in a couple of weeks.

Out of interest Pops, and I am being lazy here; what year is your car reg'd?

Mr Towed - thats great thank you... I cant promise it will look that cool compared to the great job you guys have done on yours, my time and money have gone into sorting the basics of what I would consider a bodged build before I purchased and making the car safe, strong and handle OK!

Regards
Stephen

[Psycho pops]

Stephen

Mines a 68 Herald so much later than the stated 65's
Pops

[Mister Towed]

The September '65 cut off date only applies to having white indicator bulbs rather than the separation between the indicators and headlights.

You can always use clear lenses with amber bulbs on a post '65 car if you want an older look. I bought some Land Rover clear lens units for the front of mine but decided they're too big so I've sourced a couple of small oval ones instead.

[garyh]

While we're talking about indicators, can they be set within the bodywork or must they be seen from a certain angle?

[Mister Towed]

Originally Posted by garyh

While we're talking about indicators, can they be set within the bodywork or must they be seen from a certain angle?

According to Schedule 7 Part 1 again, pre '86 indicators just need to be visible from the front and rear -

3. Angles of visibility–
(a) A motor vehicle first used on or after 1st April 1986 and a trailer manufactured on or after 1st October 1985–
(i)Horizontal (see diagrams in Part III of this Schedule)– .
(A)A front or rear indicator fitted to a motor vehicle, other than a solo motor bicycle or a motor bicycle combination, having a maximum speed exceeding 25 mph and every rear indicator fitted to a trailer: .
80° outwards and 45° inwards



(B)A front or rear indicator fitted to a solo motor bicycle or a motor bicycle combination: .
80° outwards and 20° inwards



(C)A front or rear indicator fitted to a motor vehicle, other than a solo motor bicycle or a motor bicycle combination, having a maximum speed not exceeding 25 mph: .
80° outwards and 3° inwards



(D)A side repeater indicator fitted to a motor vehicle or a trailer: .
Between rearward angles of 5° outboard and 60° outboard or, in the case of a motor vehicle having a maximum speed not exceeding 25 mph where it is impracticable to comply with the 5° angle, this may be replaced by 10°.



(ii)Vertical– .
(A)Except as provided by sub-paragraph (B) or (C): .
15° above and below the horizontal



(B)Where the highest part of the illuminated area of the lamp is less than 1900 mm above the ground and the vehicle is a motor vehicle having a maximum speed not exceeding 25 mph: .
15° above and 10° below the horizontal



(C)Where the highest part of the illuminated area of the lamp is less than 750 mm above the ground: .
15° above and 5° below the horizontal



(b) A motor vehicle first used before 1st April 1986, a trailer manufactured before 1st October 1985, a pedal cycle, a horse-drawn vehicle and a vehicle drawn or propelled by hand:
Such that at least one (but not necessarily the same) indicator on each side is plainly visible to the rear in the case of a trailer and both to the front and rear in the case of any other vehicle.

[MikeD]

Very interesting, I have a set of Wipac clear with amber bulbs but they look too big to me, seems you can get 21w LED bulbs into small ( side light ) holders now so I am looking at motorcycle fairing indicators - lots of choice..