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Go Back   Madabout Kitcars Forum > Mad Build Area > Dino 246 Builds and Discussion

Dino 246 Builds and Discussion Da da da da daaa daa da da, ohoho Dino

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  #1  
Old 13th August 2010, 18:01
hondekop hondekop is offline
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Default Switching to 5 x 108 mm PCD and Alfa V6, some info.

Hi all,

Because I want to use the 16" Cromodora Dino Wheels from Superformance, I have to switch to 5 x 108 mm PCD. I know it has been dealt with here before (http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/foru...ad.php?t=2109), but the thread is quite long and cluttered.

My configuration:
Fiat 124 front suspension;
Rear suspension unknown, probably Lancia Beta;
Ford 2.9 V6 and Ford IB5 or B5 or BC gearbox (will be modified to Alfa V6 engine and box).


Switching to 5 x 108 mm PCD, FRONT:
Fiat 124 front suspension:
Stub axle: 26 MM DIAMETER inside, 19,05 MM DIAMETER outside
Hub: 57 MM DIAMETER inside, 45,237 MM DIAMETER outside
Bearings: 57 x 26 mm & 45,25 x 19,05 mm

Fiat dino & 132 front suspension:
Stub axle: 30 MM DIAMETER inside,19,05 MM DIAMETER buitenzijde
Hub: 60 MM DIAMETER inside, 45,237 MM DIAMETER outside
Bearings: 60 x 30 mm & 45,25 x 19,05 mm

Fiat 124 hub can be replaced by a 5x108 PCD Fiat Dino, 130 or 2300 hub:
Use the Fiat 132/Argenta front inner bearings, outer Bearings are the same.
Put a piece of tube 26 MM DIAMETER inside/30 MM DIAMETER inside, 16 mm long on the 124 stub axle to make the 132/Argenta Bearing fit.

Another way is perhaps the Volvo 700 & 900 series (before 12/1987) 5x108 PCD front hub:
Hub: 60 MM DIAMETER inside, 45,237 MM DIAMETER outside. Sadly, I don't know the width of the hub.
Bearings: 60 x 35 mm & 45,25 x 22 mm
Again, use the Fiat 132/Argenta front inner bearings as well as the piece of tube.
BTW, Volvo hubs are studs instead of bolts, no problem IMO.
Center bore is 65 mm.
So, the diameters are OK, only the width of the hub could be the problem.


Switching to 5 x 108 mm PCD, REAR:

I will use the 3.0-3.3 V6 and box from either Alfa 164, 147, 156 or 166. 164 or 166 will be most likely, as 3.2 147 & 156 are GTA's, and thus expensive. 156 and 166 have a 6-speed box. You can fit the Q2 LSD to all four.

Alfa 166 is the only one with 5 x 108 mm PCD hubs, but the 166 front hubs fit the 164, 147, 156 driveshafts.
Alfa 147, 156 & 166 use the same integrated front bearing, 42 MM DIAMETER inside, 37 mm wide, 166 hub fits.
Alfa 164 use a seperate front bearing, 42 MM DIAMETER inside, 80 MM DIAMETER outside, 37 mm wide, 166 hub fits.

Now I don't know if I have Lancia Beta uprights at the rear, so that is vague to me. They used a Ford gearbox to which the Lancia CV's do not fit, but they could have used Ford driveshafts and CV's, as the outer Ford CV could fit the Lancia bearing (both 35 mm DIAMETER).
IMO Deon would not have have taken the hassle to modify the rear suspension only to fit another engine, so I tend to think it will still be Lancia Beta.

To those who have Lancia Beta Rear suspension:
Lancia Beta Bearings: 68 x 35 mm, 37 mm wide

The alfa 166 Hub is 42 MM DIAMETER outside, 37 mm wide.

I don't Know of a bearing 68 x 42 MM DIAMETER. But lots of Audis (A3-A6) use a bearing 68 x 41 MM DIAMETER, 18,15 mm wide, which doubles to 36,3 mm. One would have to turn 0,5 mm both sides off the 166 hub, which is acceptable if you take the weight difference between the Dino and the 166 into account. Using this bearing would make the 166 hub fit into the Lancia Beta upright.


BRAKES:

Haven't found too much info on this one, because I don't know about mounting points etc. Probably one will have to create caliper adapters at least for the front anyway, so you're pretty much free here.

Front:
Fiat 124: 228 MM DIAMETER solid discs
One solution is to use the 166 2.0 L front discs, diameter: 281 (6,8 kg).
One could also use the V6 discs, but these are a lot heavier, Diameter: 310 mm (8,6 kg), and they would only fit 16" wheels.

Rear:
Lancia Beta: 251 MM DIAMETER solid discs, 66 mm high, 13 mm thick.

One option is finding a disc that fits immediatly to the existing hardware.
Citroen XM: 250 MM DIAMETER solid discs, 63 mm high, 12 mm thick. Only center bore is 65 mm as opposed to 58 mm for the 166 hub, not a very big deal.
The problem with this solution is the parking brake at the rear, some of you have already written about that one.

I tend to the Alfa 166 solid disc 276 mm DIAMETER, 52 mm high, 10 mm thick, combined with the 166 rear caliper. The 16 mm height difference creates more than enough room for an adapter, and one has a competent parking brake as well. And of course it fits the 166 hub.


That's it for today, folks!


Anyone knows the center bore of Dino wheels???


Cheers, Kai
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  #2  
Old 13th August 2010, 23:23
dino_gt dino_gt is offline
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Hello;

Cromodoras center bore is 58.1 mm, exactly as the 166 hubs, so will fit directly.

I´m doing exactly the same modification as you, and putting 16" cromodoras as well, but I use alfa uprights in the rear, and, in my case, i´ve found a bearing to avoid machining the hubs.

Your solution for the rear is right, as a friend of mine did the same to a stratos with lancia beta hubs, with a little machining.

For the front O.K., but dino uprights/hubs are a bit hard to find...The Hawk (statos kit for the fiat uprights) is 98 pcd so it´s not useful. Hawk wheels are 98 pcd.

All v6 alfa engines have 26 splines driveshafts so will fit directly to 166 hubs.

kind regards

Dino_gt
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  #3  
Old 14th August 2010, 13:12
hondekop hondekop is offline
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Default

Hi Dino_gt,

Thanks for the info.

Which upright and bearing do you use then? Does it fit the existing rear suspension or did you have to modify it? What were your reasons to go this route.

As to front hubs, I seem to have found someone over here that does Fiat 2300's. Hope I can score some hubs there.

Cheers, Kai
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  #4  
Old 14th August 2010, 15:33
dino_gt dino_gt is offline
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Hi Kai;

In my case, I had to change the existing suspension so i took the chance to design new wishbones for the rear and changed the uprights as well. They will be stronger for the V6 engine.

However in your case, if you want to retain wishbones, changing your upright will cause a change of position (angle) of the wishbones introducing a change of geometry in your suspension, so i think the best thing to do is what you are doing at the moment.

Good luck in finding the fiat 2300 hubs. I have a different solution for the front but it requires using different uprights and modifying the upper wishbone mounting brackets on the chassis to change the geometry as well, and i guess that´s more complicated...

cheers.

Dino_GT
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  #5  
Old 14th August 2010, 20:50
rossnzwpi rossnzwpi is offline
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Hi Dino_gt,
fascinating approach and one I'm interested in - I've spent hours poring over brake & hub dimensions. I'm planning a build from scratch rather than modifying a Deon 124/Beta setup and the recent Alfa 166 (or 156 with 166 hubs) is the most likely donor. Would you be willing to share your designs for the suspension? email me if you wish
Cheers
Ross in NZ
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  #6  
Old 25th August 2010, 22:40
dino_gt dino_gt is offline
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Default 5x108 Pcd

Hi Kai;

Did you find the Fiat front hubs?

If you finally don´t find them, maybe i can give you another solution. I´ve just finished my front uprights with alfa 166 5x108 hubs.

I received the cromodora dino wheels on Monday and They fit perfect to the hubs, so no problem: pcd and center bore perfect.

So if you need help just tell.

Kind Regards.

Dino_GT
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  #7  
Old 29th August 2010, 11:41
hondekop hondekop is offline
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Hi Dino_gt,

Nah, the guy only wanted to sell them with the whole front axle. Maybe I still take that offer. Can you tell us more about your front uprights, are they welded like the Locost ones or did you modify an existing upright? You used an alfa 166 rear hub, I suppose? I'm sure Ross will be interested too.

Cheers, Kai
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  #8  
Old 29th August 2010, 15:35
dino_gt dino_gt is offline
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Hi;

No, I´m using MGF front uprights with front alfa 166 drive flanges, using a 39 mm. ID bearing and machining the drive flange from 42mm to 39mm to match the bearing ID. I´ve done this and tried the 16"cromodora wheels I received last monday, and they fit perfect (pcd and center bore is perfect).

However, I could be having problems with the steering arm/ steering rack location and bumpsteer. I haven´t resolved this yet, as I have to buy a new steering rack to fit.

I considered using a rear 166 flange, but this will go with a spindle type of upright (no stub axle). The MGF upright is prepared for stub axles and drive flanges, just like a FWD car, so that´s why I decided to use 166 front flanges with the MGF front uprights as well in the front as in the rear.

Right now I have fitted the 4 cromodoras to front/rear axles and they go really nice, but i´m still working on the suspension geometry.

Obviously using different uprights requires more work to do, probably modification of the wishbones mounting points for the uprights and this is the hard point in it...

I also believe that other uprights can be used, such as ford sierra RWD front uprights, again with alfa 166 drive flanges, it´s a matter of looking for the correct bearing, etc...

cheers, Dino_gt
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  #9  
Old 24th November 2010, 17:42
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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hi
this all sound very technical to me.Has anyone looked into replacement billet alloy hubs using standard bearings to fit the lada/124 front and beta rear uprights as availabe for many other ford based kit cars.
I'm sure a well equiped engineering shop could run a small batch on a cnc machine if there was enough interest. ian
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  #10  
Old 2nd January 2011, 12:22
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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hi guys
with all this swapping/modification going on does anyone have any spare front fiat/lada hubs and rear lancia beta hubs for sale?
Looking at machining and redrilling the standard ones but don't want to try it on the ones fitted to my car in case it doesn't work!!
ian
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  #11  
Old 2nd January 2011, 12:29
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Deon had a batch of driveshafts made that went from the ford/gearbox end to lancia cv joint at the hub.These are fitted to my ford engined deon which uses the limited slip diff gearbox from the escort rs turbo. Manufactured by recoprop in bedford.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hondekop View Post
Hi all,

Because I want to use the 16" Cromodora Dino Wheels from Superformance, I have to switch to 5 x 108 mm PCD. I know it has been dealt with here before (http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/foru...ad.php?t=2109), but the thread is quite long and cluttered.

My configuration:
Fiat 124 front suspension;
Rear suspension unknown, probably Lancia Beta;
Ford 2.9 V6 and Ford IB5 or B5 or BC gearbox (will be modified to Alfa V6 engine and box).


Switching to 5 x 108 mm PCD, FRONT:
Fiat 124 front suspension:
Stub axle: 26 MM DIAMETER inside, 19,05 MM DIAMETER outside
Hub: 57 MM DIAMETER inside, 45,237 MM DIAMETER outside
Bearings: 57 x 26 mm & 45,25 x 19,05 mm

Fiat dino & 132 front suspension:
Stub axle: 30 MM DIAMETER inside,19,05 MM DIAMETER buitenzijde
Hub: 60 MM DIAMETER inside, 45,237 MM DIAMETER outside
Bearings: 60 x 30 mm & 45,25 x 19,05 mm

Fiat 124 hub can be replaced by a 5x108 PCD Fiat Dino, 130 or 2300 hub:
Use the Fiat 132/Argenta front inner bearings, outer Bearings are the same.
Put a piece of tube 26 MM DIAMETER inside/30 MM DIAMETER inside, 16 mm long on the 124 stub axle to make the 132/Argenta Bearing fit.

Another way is perhaps the Volvo 700 & 900 series (before 12/1987) 5x108 PCD front hub:
Hub: 60 MM DIAMETER inside, 45,237 MM DIAMETER outside. Sadly, I don't know the width of the hub.
Bearings: 60 x 35 mm & 45,25 x 22 mm
Again, use the Fiat 132/Argenta front inner bearings as well as the piece of tube.
BTW, Volvo hubs are studs instead of bolts, no problem IMO.
Center bore is 65 mm.
So, the diameters are OK, only the width of the hub could be the problem.


Switching to 5 x 108 mm PCD, REAR:

I will use the 3.0-3.3 V6 and box from either Alfa 164, 147, 156 or 166. 164 or 166 will be most likely, as 3.2 147 & 156 are GTA's, and thus expensive. 156 and 166 have a 6-speed box. You can fit the Q2 LSD to all four.

Alfa 166 is the only one with 5 x 108 mm PCD hubs, but the 166 front hubs fit the 164, 147, 156 driveshafts.
Alfa 147, 156 & 166 use the same integrated front bearing, 42 MM DIAMETER inside, 37 mm wide, 166 hub fits.
Alfa 164 use a seperate front bearing, 42 MM DIAMETER inside, 80 MM DIAMETER outside, 37 mm wide, 166 hub fits.

Now I don't know if I have Lancia Beta uprights at the rear, so that is vague to me. They used a Ford gearbox to which the Lancia CV's do not fit, but they could have used Ford driveshafts and CV's, as the outer Ford CV could fit the Lancia bearing (both 35 mm DIAMETER).
IMO Deon would not have have taken the hassle to modify the rear suspension only to fit another engine, so I tend to think it will still be Lancia Beta.

To those who have Lancia Beta Rear suspension:
Lancia Beta Bearings: 68 x 35 mm, 37 mm wide

The alfa 166 Hub is 42 MM DIAMETER outside, 37 mm wide.

I don't Know of a bearing 68 x 42 MM DIAMETER. But lots of Audis (A3-A6) use a bearing 68 x 41 MM DIAMETER, 18,15 mm wide, which doubles to 36,3 mm. One would have to turn 0,5 mm both sides off the 166 hub, which is acceptable if you take the weight difference between the Dino and the 166 into account. Using this bearing would make the 166 hub fit into the Lancia Beta upright.


BRAKES:

Haven't found too much info on this one, because I don't know about mounting points etc. Probably one will have to create caliper adapters at least for the front anyway, so you're pretty much free here.

Front:
Fiat 124: 228 MM DIAMETER solid discs
One solution is to use the 166 2.0 L front discs, diameter: 281 (6,8 kg).
One could also use the V6 discs, but these are a lot heavier, Diameter: 310 mm (8,6 kg), and they would only fit 16" wheels.

Rear:
Lancia Beta: 251 MM DIAMETER solid discs, 66 mm high, 13 mm thick.

One option is finding a disc that fits immediatly to the existing hardware.
Citroen XM: 250 MM DIAMETER solid discs, 63 mm high, 12 mm thick. Only center bore is 65 mm as opposed to 58 mm for the 166 hub, not a very big deal.
The problem with this solution is the parking brake at the rear, some of you have already written about that one.

I tend to the Alfa 166 solid disc 276 mm DIAMETER, 52 mm high, 10 mm thick, combined with the 166 rear caliper. The 16 mm height difference creates more than enough room for an adapter, and one has a competent parking brake as well. And of course it fits the 166 hub.


That's it for today, folks!


Anyone knows the center bore of Dino wheels???


Cheers, Kai
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