DeHavilland Motor Company - Support Pages.

[thecarbuilder246]

hi all
I regularly go to the ferrari owners club day and have had time to study many dinos side by side.I've got endless photos. And even some of these cars differ from each other.Door locks move up or down on the door.Different bumpers,interiors etc.Chairs and flairs is another. Five spoke gold wheels,so who's really to say what's what.
Even met at a fiat/lancia owners day a guy who had been "thrown out" of the ferrari owners club as he had radically altered a 206 alloy body and butchered it onto a 246 chassis!! Got photos of that too somewhere.He had the later 246 engine and running gear,earlier 206 knock on wheels and the 206 interior,even down to the headrest fitted to the rear baulk head instead of the seats as in the 246, and even the thin wooden rimmed steering wheel. Sort of odd but it looked so good.
ian

[thecarbuilder246]

hi again
quick query for dino gt. are you using a jhc/deon shell. if so and your copying a 206 will you be altering the door hinge system so you have opening windows?
When I got my car I did consider making a 206 too but when fitting the doors and altered door frames realized as the 206 has one big drop glass the window will not pass the hinging system in the door/a pillar to drop into the door.
One of the reasons I went the 246 way-quarterlites!!
ian

[thecarbuilder246]

Originally Posted by thecarbuilder246

hi again
quick query for dino gt. are you using a jhc/deon shell. if so and your copying a 206 will you be altering the door hinge system so you have opening windows?
When I got my car I did consider making a 206 too but when fitting the doors and altered door frames realized as the 206 has one big drop glass the window will not pass the hinging system in the door/a pillar to drop into the door.
One of the reasons I went the 246 way-quarterlites!!
ian

hi again
of course the whole replica thing falls apart if some one wants to look at the engine.Just sticking a ferrrari badge on it doesn't cut it! I have a cosworth v6 in mine that will be run on throttle bodies but I'll leave the badges on.
ian

[thecarbuilder246]

Originally Posted by nilfish76

Dare i say it, the best replica i have ever seen has been a classic replicas gts last december. Very good, very expensive even as a kit, and still has faults (but not many). It is much better than there previous attempt at copying Deon. However i have already been warned about some peoples dealings with the owner, which people can look up for themselves. However i wouldn't rule him out as an option, he has always been quite open, informative, and pleasant to deal with from my own experiences. As i have stated in other posts i still need time to save so i am taking my time and keeping an eye out on all developments. I am especially looking forward to seeing Dehavillands prototype completed. And i hope thay keep it as a demonstrator for customers to try, JHC and CR don't have this which i think is daft and concerning, put it this way i didn't buy my everyday car with out giving it a go first.

Hi.
Strange you say that as the moulds for classic replicas gt and gts were taken from deon body shells.I know this for a fact as I visited classic replicas when the moulds were being manufactured and spoke at length with markus king who was gelcoating the deon bodyshell prior to laying up with fibreglass.Gordon was on holiday at the time in the us and markus spent almost all day with me.He showed me a completed deon rolling chassis from which the bodyshell had been taken. So due to shrinkage in fact the cr shells may end up being even smaller than the deons. They were even working from the same shed deon/ jhc made their shells in illminster!!
I know they updated few things but it was basically a rebadged deon which was initially a rebadges jhc.
ian

[nilfish76]

Originally Posted by thecarbuilder246

Hi.
Strange you say that as the moulds for classic replicas gt and gts were taken from deon body shells.I know this for a fact as I visited classic replicas when the moulds were being manufactured and spoke at length with markus king who was gelcoating the deon bodyshell prior to laying up with fibreglass.Gordon was on holiday at the time in the us and markus spent almost all day with me.He showed me a completed deon rolling chassis from which the bodyshell had been taken. So due to shrinkage in fact the cr shells may end up being even smaller than the deons. They were even working from the same shed deon/ jhc made their shells in illminster!!
I know they updated few things but it was basically a rebadged deon which was initially a rebadges jhc.
ian

Hi ian

What is your opinion on the cascu moulds and body?

[thecarbuilder246]

Hi phil
I've spoke via e-mail with cascu many times mainly through ebay. He auctioned a few things under the name (I think?) berkley cars and on several pictures in the background was a dino shell. He also sold a few mouldings for the dino under the cascu name. I have only seen photos of the shells and chassis but they do look very good.
To be honest from what I've seen,and learnt from him , if I was starting again today I'd be using his chassis and bodyshell.The chassis looks great and the bodyshell is from a 246 as he personally took the moulds from one. I did consider for a long time selling my deon (less any ferrari parts) and starting again with his kit but with all the work I've done 246ing my deon couldn't justify the expense with the other half!!!
Ian

[thecarbuilder246]

Originally Posted by dino_gt

Hi guys;
Here goes my opinion as well;

I wouldn´t consider the JH classics a bad replica, but I understand that something happened in the production of these replicas over the years, causing discrepancies between the very first moulds/units produced and the later ones.

First of all let´s make clear one thing that´s been said but I think that it has to be remarked:
The JH classics replica is a dino 206 and not a 246 dino replica.
Therefore, the wheelbase is shorter by 60mm and the number of air vents of the engine cover is 6 instead of 7 on the 246, among other differences.

The original 206 dino was an all aluminum bodywork hand built in the late 60´s and, therefore, as many other italian cars of the time, asymmetrical.
We can however consider all this measuring stuff, but the truth is that if you get to see one real 206 it´s probably going to be as “bad” as the replica is.

Even the later 246 are, as well, asymmetrical, specially doors. Remember that these cars were made between 1969 and 1973. The same happened with other alfas and maseratis of that time.

Only 152 units of the 206 were ever made, which makes it even more valuable than other Dinos, being originals sold for 200,000 US dollars nowadays. There were only 7 of these cars ever imported in the UK and they were all left hand drive.

Finally there is, to my knowledge, at least one 206 dino made with a removable roof, although with the rear quarter glass in place, like the GT, which is very rare and interesting.

I´ve been working with my car for 3 years now. One mistake made at the start was to consider the 246 as a reference to do the job. Today, I´m completely sure that it is not the way to go, although you can decide to transform the car into a 246, which is another possibility.

I personally prefer to stand as close to the original 206 as possible because this is the car that was copied at the start.

I have talked to David myrelees and John Hurst from JH classics, the men involved in the copying of the original 206 and I believe they made a good job. If you take a look at David myrelees´ car you can see how close it is to the real 206, it is almost identical.

However, it is true that, for some reason, that Deons have some differences from the original 206. We have corrected almost all of them in my car by now, as far as it was possible.

However, I think some of the most important are still not mentioned here. In my opinion, these are the most important:

-The width of the car: the deon is wider than the original, causing the wheels to look “pulled in” the bodyshell.
-The lower nose and lower rear end panels: These are missing. They didn´t copy these parts and are not present on the JH classics moulds.
-The dropped nose.

There are more, but these are probably the most important. However, regarding the dropped nose and wider bodyshell, it is not a problem of the moulds, but just the way the bodyshell was finished, when fabricating the inner tub and fitting it to the chassis, forgetting about the correct dimensions.

So I believe we have to separate the next 3 things, before judging the JH classics Dino:

-The asymmetries on the original car (which was never crashed, as some people say)
- The wrong finishing of the fiberglass bodyshell on the chassis.
-The missing or altered panels on the moulds.

In my opinion, the first one can´t be considered as a fault of the replica. The second one, causing dropped nose and wider bodyshell can be fixed (not a minor thing however) and the third one is really a fault in making the moulds, but it is also possible to modify.

One last thought: let´s not criticize and devalue our cars because they are probably not that bad as we may think…In fact, which other replica of a true 206 Dino has ever been made? I don´t know any other. Think about it.

Cheers everyone, and enjoy your cars/work.

Dino-GT

Hi
I've been looking at endless dino 246 photos over the week end and I've noticed that the swage line on the body doesn't run through in a straight line from the front of the car to the back. It starts at the nose and seems to run up from the very front of the car in a straight line to the rear edge of the front wheel arch at about a 4/5 degree angle,then runs parallel to the road between the front and rear wheel,before tapering out behind the rear wheel.
If you look at the front wheel arch the swage line is approx 2 inches lower at the front than at the back.Strange what you see when you look closer!!
ian

[dino_gt]

Hi Ian;

I´m afraid I can´t go the complete 206 way, because I think it would be impossible. First thing would be the "spinner type" wheels, which i´m not using. I´m using 16" cromodoras with the modern 246 hub caps.

There are as well other differences such as the head-rests, etc. The car is going to look as a mixture of modern components in an "old 206", but regarding the bodyshell, I wanted it to be as the 206 and L-series of the 246 are, and not introducing the modifications of later 246.

The modifications are going to affect the items used to finish the car: steering wheel, wheels, etc. I´ll post some pics when it´s ready for that.
Also, being a replica, we don´t have to worry about winning any concourse, do we?

What is really interesting to me about the 206 is that it was an all aluminum car, really light, and rare, as there were only a few produced, but the 246 probably looks better.

I´m using an alfa 3.0 V6. I agree that the engine has to be a V6, absolutely. I also was worried about the performance and handling of the car so we have worked really a lot on that: suspension geometry, etc.

Lately we´ve been really into the bodyshell and on the doors. At the moment we´re working with the door frames and the opening system. The frame is basically the one used in the deons, but trying that it leaves only a small gap with the bodyshell (3-4mm).

We´ve also modified the rear quarter window to make it the correct size and put a rain gutter close to the one fitted to the original car.
Really hard work!

Cheers
Dino_GT

[dino_gt]

Hi again Ian;

Yes, the line at the front is lower than in the middle of the car, but parallel.
Also, the rear is also higher than the middle section of the car.

About the inclination, it seems also that the rear and the front are more inclinated and only the center section is really parallel to the ground.

however, the suspension set up is important. Some cars seems to have higher ground clearance than others and that affects how the car looks.
If you leave one axle higher than other...

However, these things are specially present on the 246 more than on the 206, I believe...

I may be visiting the ferrari club over here soon and take a look and some measures of a 246 which is being restored. Quite a long time since I don´t see this car. Hopefully I can take some pics and specially meausures.

I´ll tell you what happens.

Dino_GT

[nilfish76]

Originally Posted by thecarbuilder246

Hi phil
I've spoke via e-mail with cascu many times mainly through ebay. He auctioned a few things under the name (I think?) berkley cars and on several pictures in the background was a dino shell. He also sold a few mouldings for the dino under the cascu name. I have only seen photos of the shells and chassis but they do look very good.
To be honest from what I've seen,and learnt from him , if I was starting again today I'd be using his chassis and bodyshell.The chassis looks great and the bodyshell is from a 246 as he personally took the moulds from one. I did consider for a long time selling my deon (less any ferrari parts) and starting again with his kit but with all the work I've done 246ing my deon couldn't justify the expense with the other half!!!
Ian

Unfortunatly Mark is very busy and i can understand why, he seems to produce good quality products, I strongly think that his body shell, chassis, iterior panels with a V6 from an alfa or a toyota would be great, his current chassis isn't set up for an alfa becasue of the positioning of the gear box, but i still think and a toyota engine with potential to put a TRD bolt on turbo would be amazing and if alterations need to be made, which would be at a cost then imo a stronger engine should be used. does anyone else think that this is a good option?

[dino_gt]

Hi Nilfish;

Mark´s Dino is great. I made a visit to him in summer and his 246 replica is awesome. However, this replica is intended for using a ferrari donor. The chassis is much narrower at the rear for using an alfa v6, with the geargox mounted at a side of the engine and not underneath.

The best solution would be to fit a longitudinal mounted engine and gearbox or modify the chassis. This last option involves designing a new geometry, so it´s a harder option.

Also, you have to consider using ferrari parts as wishbones and steering rack.
Some are avaliable, but are much more expensive than regular donor parts.

I´d say, if you have a 308 gt4 dino as donor then perfect, if not, you´d have to look for solutions for a number of issues...

cheers.

[nilfish76]

Hi dino_gt

Agree, Mark said this himself to me, but it is achievable with some thought and engineering, i only have time at the moment lol, Doner engine and gearbox would need to be chosen carefully, would you have any ideas on the engine?

Cheers

[dino_gt]

well, you could fit any v6 really.

Camry´s v6 is good but i believe it´s an iron block, which is heavier...the alfa V6 is made of alluminum, which is lighter. I specially like this engine bacause I know it very well, it has great torque and it is very powerful.

Another option is using an audi V6, mounted logitudinally with gearbox, as in the A4. It could probably be the best option to keep the chassis as it is, without modifying at least the suspension mounting points...

Of course, the best option for me would be to fit a dino gt4 or a 308 gearbox underneath the engine, also for weight distribution.
this gearbox disposition was one of the keys to make the stratos so competitive.

One thing about the engine is that the more compact it is, the better, because you don´t have much room for it in the engine bay (specially height)

The alfa V6 is quite compact.

cheers.

[rossnzwpi]

Hi, I agree that a V6 is the obvious way to go. Read any review of the Dino and one of the first things they mention is the glorious wail of the Dino V6 , which is why I've bought a 2 liter FIAT Dino V6. Rebuilding it isn't cheap though! I'd look at mating it to an Alfa manual gearbox, with Alfa 166 hubs so I could use Cromodoras.
But, if I hadn't invested in a Dino I'd definitely use an Alfa V6! The sound they make and the sporting delivery as the revs rise is awesome. Why on earth would you use a turbo or a slow revving luxury V6 instead of a sports car engine? Power isn't the only goal here! This little, nimble light weight car was fabulous with 195 bhp so anything around there with slightly less weight would be great.

Thats my opinion anyway - but I've been an Italian car nut since I saw ( and heard ) my first FIAT 124 sport
Cheers
Ross in NZ
Ps - the 206 with no fron quarter lights, often seen in Pininfarina promo photos was a prototype - as far as I know production 206 s had quarter light windows

[thecarbuilder246]

Originally Posted by dino_gt

Hi Ian;

I´m afraid I can´t go the complete 206 way, because I think it would be impossible. First thing would be the "spinner type" wheels, which i´m not using. I´m using 16" cromodoras with the modern 246 hub caps.

There are as well other differences such as the head-rests, etc. The car is going to look as a mixture of modern components in an "old 206", but regarding the bodyshell, I wanted it to be as the 206 and L-series of the 246 are, and not introducing the modifications of later 246.

The modifications are going to affect the items used to finish the car: steering wheel, wheels, etc. I´ll post some pics when it´s ready for that.
Also, being a replica, we don´t have to worry about winning any concourse, do we?

What is really interesting to me about the 206 is that it was an all aluminum car, really light, and rare, as there were only a few produced, but the 246 probably looks better.

I´m using an alfa 3.0 V6. I agree that the engine has to be a V6, absolutely. I also was worried about the performance and handling of the car so we have worked really a lot on that: suspension geometry, etc.

Lately we´ve been really into the bodyshell and on the doors. At the moment we´re working with the door frames and the opening system. The frame is basically the one used in the deons, but trying that it leaves only a small gap with the bodyshell (3-4mm).

We´ve also modified the rear quarter window to make it the correct size and put a rain gutter close to the one fitted to the original car.
Really hard work!

Cheers
Dino_GT

Hi
My chassis was the last one to leave deons factory and was engineered to take the ford v6 engine and also had the alteration to the footwells. I have used the standard deon wishbones front and back the fiat/lada front uprights up front and the lancia items at the back.
I started in the engine bay,as after speaking with David Javan I had to have a cossie v6 lump. A brand new crated engine came up, the exsisting engine mounts were cut off and it was shoehorned in.New engine mounts were made and welded in allowing the engine and gearbox to sit 2" lower.I had to have an original boot/engine cover-not the ugly deon thing with the top box bonded on!! On my side the cossie lump was also slightly less tall than the essex unit and came with all alloy heads and alloy sump as standard.
Another upgrade was a one off double core radiator with twin fans mounted approx 100mm back to allow correct bonnet opening.This meant cutting away most of the front floor,which seemed to allow the nose to move up to a more pleasing postion-result!!
Brakes have also been upgraded-280 x 24 brembo vent discs at the front with wilwood 4pots,280 x 10 brembos at the rear with (for Iva ) standard lancia calipers and handbrake.Hubs front and back have all been remachined and fitted with one off cnc'd concentric hub adaptors drilled to take the 16"cromodoras.
Starting at the front of the car a completely new bonnet was made as after the nose moved the original no longer fitted.This also has a moulding on the underside to make it more convincing.Patterns were made and alloy hinges cast for front opening as per real dino.Looking at buying superformance wheel well/front under bonnet mouldings to finish off in here. Also looking at the under belly moulding missing from the deon.
I too have hacked the rear quarter lites to bits and added a rain gutter.I have looked into a stainless trim to go on this but at the moment cannot get it to bend around the tight corner and look any good.It needs a few cuts to remove excess metal the tig weld and polishing back.
Unfortunately I never got the window frames from deon,so went to cr for them,but to be honest they were utter garbage. They were flat where the deon door is shaped around the quarterlite and when I tried to bend them to fit the welds broke.I did eventually get them to sort of fit but they really did look crap. After much head scratching and looking over a couple of dinos I took the bull by the horns and machined some lenghts of 20mm steel bar in to an "H" section to take the window flock/channel.These were then made up in to window frames on the car.About this time I came across a opening quarterlite on ebay and with a £65 winning bid was utter blown away when it fit straight in with little work. Of course new rubbers were ordered and as the dino has curved glass new flat glass will be fitted as well.
Mercedes 200 door locks were fitted as these are almost identicle to the ones used on the dino. Daytona openners take car of the outside while currantly working on the internal door openners.I've also moved the seat belt point to the correct postion and made a moulding to sit over it for a correct look.I'm using uprated deon door hinges and have fabricated brackets that mount to these and then onto the chassis for increased rigidity.
On the side I've increased the depth of the cill as mine was short for some reason and will extend this under the car as per dino.
At the back new mouldings for both the boot and engine cover were made.The engine cover relies on the deon hinges(now covered in the car by the seat belt moulding)and new hinges copied from a dino take care of the boot lid.Another pattern and casting for the boot handle fitted to the bootlid and another moulding seperates the engine compartment from the boot.I'm also looking to fitting the panel under the rear of the car. There is pobably alot more I've forgot-been on it ten years!!

[rossnzwpi]

Wow, sounds like you've achieved a lot. It would be great to see lots of photos of your build and alterations
cheers
Ross in NZ

[thecarbuilder246]

Hi
I did try to load photos on to here but the size (mb or jpeg or something)was to big to load.Too many pixcels

[thecarbuilder246]

Originally Posted by rossnzwpi

Hi Dino_GT, my project is stalled at present. My dear Dad, who is storing various Dino bits for me seems to have thrown out my Dino flywheel for scrap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anyone know where I can get a replacement flywheel for a 206 motor???

On the topic of wheels that look like Dino but fit 4 stud hubs like the MGF - here is something I've suggested before, apologies for the rush Photoshop job.
Take one pressed/welded deep dish steel wheel - like the Weller ones in the UK. Get one to suit your drive train. Add a thin fibreglass molding in the shape of the Dino wheel and centre cap. Paint it shiny silver in the middle, dull silver round the edges, glue on a Dino badge. I've actually got ba mold of the wheel and a genuine Dino cap already.

Here's a mocked up picture
Cheers
Ross in NZ

Hi all
If anyone is interested I have 5 replica cromadora wheels ,that I made the patterns for and were then handcast by a local foundry,sent away for heat treated before being part machined for me by an old friend who owned his own engineering company. Sadly,as it was a fill in job to do when he wasn't busy,he passed away before they were finished (machined to fit lancia/beta/lada/deon hubs!) I visited several engineering companies to get them finished machined but was quoted silly money so I abandened the project and got a set from superformance for around half the price of the machining quote!!
I guess they could be adapted to use for making a hub cap as per above. Or maybe finish machined if you have access to a big enough lathe.Looking for around £100 as that's what the recyclers have offered. If interested pm and I'll send some pictures.There are five in total.
Ian

[nilfish76]

Originally Posted by thecarbuilder246

Hi all
If anyone is interested I have 5 replica cromadora wheels ,that I made the patterns for and were then handcast by a local foundry,sent away for heat treated before being part machined for me by an old friend who owned his own engineering company. Sadly,as it was a fill in job to do when he wasn't busy,he passed away before they were finished (machined to fit lancia/beta/lada/deon hubs!) I visited several engineering companies to get them finished machined but was quoted silly money so I abandened the project and got a set from superformance for around half the price of the machining quote!!
I guess they could be adapted to use for making a hub cap as per above. Or maybe finish machined if you have access to a big enough lathe.Looking for around £100 as that's what the recyclers have offered. If interested pm and I'll send some pictures.There are five in total.
Ian

What hubs are you using now? oh and what steering rack are you using?

cheers

[thecarbuilder246]

Hi
Still using the lada/fiat hubs(brand new items from lada!) but these have been machined on the back face and centre inner diameter (which is still rough cast on the new hubs from the factory)to take a concentric hub adaptor that fits to the back and around the edge of the hub to give the correct diameter to fit the new brembo disc.The original hub outer edge and face were not machined in any way as to preserve the correct rotation of the disc and wheel when fitted. The adaptors are bolted to the hub in much the same ways as the disc are and were then put on a cnc and rebored to 5x108 pcd with the bolts going through both the original hub and new hub adaptor so bolting everything together.
As to the steering rack this came with the kit from deon when I originally got it but I believe it's from a BL mini. To increase it's width and make it adapt to the lada/fiat front uprights again adaptors came with the kit.
Ian