Are you madabout kit cars      
 "We've Got Kit Cars Covered" Information about Madabout-Kitcars.com Contact Madabout-Kitcars.com         Home of UK kit cars - madabout-kitcars.com Various kit car write ups All the latest kit car news Kit car related and general discussion

Search
Manufacturers
Kit Cars
Kit Car Data sheets
Picture Gallery
SVA Knowledgebase
Clubs & Communities
Build cost estimator
Kit cars for sale
Knowledge Base 
KitcarUSA.com
Classic-Kitcars.com
 

Go Back   Madabout Kitcars Forum > Mad Chat > General chatter

General chatter This is the place to talk about anything kit car related that doesn't come under any of the other categories

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 1st November 2021, 11:07
NeilF355 NeilF355 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Teesdale
Posts: 229
NeilF355 is on a distinguished road
Default UK government consultation document, transport regulatory review - "Tackling tampering"

A new consultation document has recently been published "Future of transport regulatory review: modernising vehicle standards" https://www.gov.uk/government/consul...ards#questions

It seems to be aimed at ensuring that any future control systems for automated vehicles cannot be "tampered with" which I think is fair enough.

However the proposal included -
Tackling tampering
We will create new offences for tampering with a system, part or component of a vehicle intended or adapted to be used on a road. This will enable us to address existing gaps in the legislation, ensuring cleaner and safer vehicles. We will also create new offences for tampering with non-road mobile machinery (NRMM) and for advertising ‘tampering’ services or products.

This can clearly be interpreted as applying to any part of a vehicle such as the body, lights, brakes etc, etc and will, in that case, give our hobby and industry some major problems.

It may also affect classic cars and is discussed in the October 27th issue of Classic Car weekly https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid...49539996743001

Comments on this consultation can be made until 22nd November 2021.
Reply With Quote
Available from eBay
  #2  
Old 1st November 2021, 17:59
Lucky@LeMans Lucky@LeMans is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,978
Lucky@LeMans is on a distinguished road
Default

Hmm, I hope it will only extend to unauthorised modifications. A car passing the IVA test or going down the rebody route shouldn't be effected I would assume. It appears to be aimed at modern tech in cars coming to the market in the future rather than a retrospective thing for existing or older cars.

Last edited by Lucky@LeMans; 1st November 2021 at 18:08..
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 2nd November 2021, 09:26
kon kon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 91
kon is on a distinguished road
Default

Sounds quite ominous to me...
Quote:
We will create new offences for tampering with a system, part or component of a vehicle intended or adapted to be used on a road. This will enable us to address existing gaps in the legislation, ensuring cleaner and safer vehicles. We will also create new offences for tampering with non-road mobile machinery (NRMM) and for advertising ‘tampering’ services or products.

This will strengthen our ability to enforce compliance in this area.

We are aware that the Law Commissions in both their first and third consultations on automated vehicles have considered tampering. We await their final recommendations and would welcome views on our proposals, as follows.

Specifically, we would look to create:

a specific offence for supplying, installing and/or advertising, a ‘tampering product’ for a vehicle or NRMM – this would apply where a principal effect of the product is to bypass, defeat, reduce the effectiveness of or render inoperative a system, part or component (the product may be a physical part or component, hardware and/or software)
a specific offence for removing, reducing the effectiveness of, or rendering inoperative a system, part or component for a vehicle/NRMM and advertising such services
a specific offence for allowing for use or providing a vehicle or NRMM that has had the operations described in the previous 2 points performed on it
a new power to require economic operators to provide information, where a service/product they have supplied amounts to or enables ‘tampering’ with a vehicle or NRMM – this would apply in any of the above senses and include requirements to provide relevant information on the quantities of products sold or modified
This sounds like it would outlaw all ECU mods, including chip/tuning and stand-alone ECU replacement, much like the problems the EPA are giving people in the US, where they are being fined for supplying or fitting Hondata modules to existing ECUs, as mentioned on some youtube channels like PFI Speed.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 2nd November 2021, 10:29
Mister Towed's Avatar
Mister Towed Mister Towed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,284
Mister Towed is on a distinguished road
Default

To me it looks like this new legislation is intended to prevent the bypassing or overriding of emissions and 'safety' systems like catalytic converters, diesel DPF's, economy software in the ecu and GPS or roadside triggered speed restrictors in accident reduction zones and ULEZ city centres.

All modern cars now come with a diagnostic socket, so it will be very easy for the new law to be enforced through the simple expediency of plugging in a laptop and looking at the vehicle settings.

As such, I seriously doubt it will be retrospectively applied to carburettors, camshafts and tubular exhaust manifolds on 40+ year old classic cars, as there's nowhere to plug the laptop into. The comparatively low number of classic cars and miniscule annual mileage that each one typically racks up also won't register on the enforcers' radar.

It is likely to kill off the modern modified car industry as it will clearly capture basic tuning like ecu chipping, and is also likely to stop the fitting of lowered and/or stiffened suspension components, but the way we are heading, towards mostly electric vehicles within a decade, that industry is likely to decline anyway.

After all, trying to modify a Nissan Leaf would be about as exciting as taking your fridge apart to see if you can make it get any colder.

So long as the DVLA rules on rebeodied/rebuilt vehicles remain in place I can't see this new legislation affecting the current classic and kit car industry. I do wonder what will happen when the petrol supply dries up though
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 2nd November 2021, 18:00
Lucky@LeMans Lucky@LeMans is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,978
Lucky@LeMans is on a distinguished road
Default

I think this could be aimed at companies fitting or selling devices from next July to overcome the new "Speed Regulators" that are to be fitted by law to new cars. I'm not sure what the speed will be set to but it won't be much over 70mph and you'll be on the limiter ! Apparently its the future !

Last edited by Lucky@LeMans; 2nd November 2021 at 19:58..
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 2nd November 2021, 20:00
Mister Towed's Avatar
Mister Towed Mister Towed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,284
Mister Towed is on a distinguished road
Default

Compulsory speed regulators on new vehicles?

Old cars rule!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 2nd November 2021, 20:05
Lucky@LeMans Lucky@LeMans is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,978
Lucky@LeMans is on a distinguished road
Default

If these new speed regulators are to be fitted as planned it will kill the performance car industry as we know it. Imagine joining the motorway in your brand new Ferrari that you've just bought. Entering the middle lane to pass a lorry and you hit the limiter and all forward momentum is lost ! I'd be straight back to the dealer for a refund !

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/content...cars-from-2022

Last edited by Lucky@LeMans; 2nd November 2021 at 20:07..
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 3rd November 2021, 08:59
Mister Towed's Avatar
Mister Towed Mister Towed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,284
Mister Towed is on a distinguished road
Default

Interesting article.

As the EU's experts suggest, this will be a major breakthrough in road safety and I'm all for it!

My main reason for that, of course is that I have no plans to buy a new car for the foreseeable future

For those of you who do wish to buy a new car though, just think, instead of having to do all that bothersome 'paying attention' to what's going on around you when you're driving your shiny new two and a half tonne Vulva SUV, you can simply sit back and relax, keep the pedal to the metal and fully concentrate on trying to fathom the settings on your super glossy, 20" touchscreen infotainment system that the manufacturer has provided instead of a couple of simple analogue knobs to turn the radio up or adjust the cabin temperature. How cool is that?

Too cool, probably. Or maybe too hot as I'm buggered if I can work the A/C in a modern car without prodding tiny touchscreen buttons hidden within sub-menus with one hand while holding the vehicle instruction manual in the other.

Just like all the other drivers on the road, you'll be able to mentally switch off from the outside World safe in the knowledge that your car's Intelligent Speed Assist will keep your bank balance and driving licence safe by ensuring you don't get a speeding ticket. Of course, if an inattentive pedestrian steps into the road from your left while an HGV swerves towards you across the white line from your right, surely you can trust your car to make the right decision as to how it should react?

If it decides to sacrifice you and your family's lives to save the pedestrian that must be for the greater good, right?

So, I see a future where all this fantastic in-car technology will reduce collisions and road deaths to absolute zero, as it's not like the technology could fail and misidentify a road sign or potential hazard, is it?

Oh, I just found this article about a couple who were fined for driving their car in a bus lane...

https://youtu.be/bjb2N8kPSL4

As a former Police Officer with years of experience in dealing with road traffic collisions I can say with some authority that speed is only one contributory factor in causing road traffic collisions.

The major factor which leads to collisions and road deaths is the plain old poor standard of driving, which ranges from mere inattention behind the wheel to deliberately dangerous and stupid acts.

In my view, taking away control of the vehicle from the driver and giving it to autonomous electronic systems will result in more people driving carelessly and increase collisions and fatalities on the roads of Europe, not reduce them.

With all this new tech being made compulsory, I'll be keeping my old fashioned analogue cars for as long as I can legally drive them on the road as I'll need all my attention to avoid new vehicles that aren't in the control of a human being.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 3rd November 2021, 18:06
Lucky@LeMans Lucky@LeMans is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,978
Lucky@LeMans is on a distinguished road
Default

If like you I'll qualify for a free bus pass soon so I will not have the worry of driving myself at all !

I got done by the local authority only last week for driving in a bus lane. Certain times of the day you can drive along it, other times not ! I didn't have time to read all the signage prior to my crime so I took it on the chin and paid up ! Perhaps I'd have been ok in one of these new fangled 21st century self driving cars ?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 3rd November 2021, 19:53
peterux's Avatar
peterux peterux is online now
Senior Member
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,974
peterux is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky@LeMans View Post
Perhaps I'd have been ok in one of these new fangled 21st century self driving cars ?
Which raises an interesting question.........
If a self driving car goes down a bus lane because it has not been programmed correctly (come on don't tell me it won't happen!) do they send the ticket to the driver or the software engineer that didn't get the software right??

(sorry if I've gone off topic)
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 4th November 2021, 11:03
NeilF355 NeilF355 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Teesdale
Posts: 229
NeilF355 is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky@LeMans View Post
A car passing the IVA test or going down the rebody route shouldn't be effected I would assume.
I would hope that you are right but I have always wondered how builders stand with replacing (tampering with?) parts post SVA/IVA or during rebody builds for example replacing IVA compliant / production type approved steering wheels such as this
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gy83d5zvj1...wheel.png?dl=0

with a more period one such as this
https://www.dropbox.com/s/63saqka6df...wheel.png?dl=0
It would seem to me that this intended regulation could be applied in these cases.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 4th November 2021, 18:39
Lucky@LeMans Lucky@LeMans is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,978
Lucky@LeMans is on a distinguished road
Default

I really don't think there would be any post SVA / IVA inspections in that regard. The MOT test , if applicable, will remain the only test for old cars. New cars might be subject to being checked but only via data downloads from their onboard systems. Things will change but older classics / kitcars will remain in the form they are today I would think. Who knows with regard to future classics and / or updated IVA requirements for newly built kits ?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 6th November 2021, 21:43
Dpaz Dpaz is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 261
Dpaz is on a distinguished road
Default

As far as this 'Alice in Wonderland' Government is concerned, Tampering means whatever THEY want it to mean at any time. If a spare part was not fitted at the factory you must not fit it. No pattern spares, let alone accessories. Unless of course, you are a government minister, then you can do just whatever you like and all will be well.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 7th November 2021, 06:47
Ozzie Dave Ozzie Dave is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brisbane OZ
Posts: 44
Ozzie Dave is on a distinguished road
Default

It also was most interesting that it put forward compulsory additional control and monitoring systems. It actually states that they could demand that further control be retrofitted to existing cars. This could include further vehicle 'stability' or for example computer controlled anti-lock or skid systems to a 1960-70's vehicle. A ridiculously stupid idea to integrate these systems into an old system as both the hardware to do this and the likelihood of software errors would make the vehicle far less safe. Do they not realise the dangers of this and the need for permanent software upgrades as parts or even tolerances change. This is not stupid, its dangerous!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 7th November 2021, 09:26
Mister Towed's Avatar
Mister Towed Mister Towed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,284
Mister Towed is on a distinguished road
Default

I wouldn't worry too much about having to retrofit computer control systems to existing classic cars or even recently bought production cars.

The way I interpret that bit is that vehicle manufacturers will be required to add those systems to existing production models they are building. i.e. from the relevant date, they will have to start churning out whatever their current model range is from the production line with those systems fitted.

I'm not sure what the vehicle legislation is like Down Under, but up here in the UK, our Road Vehicle Construction and Use Regulations and Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations contain lots and lots of clauses which recognise the fact that a vehicle that was constructed to the letter of the 1965 regulations (for example) isn't going to comply with many of the subsequently amended regulations, but remains completely road legal just the same.

Although it requires a bit of a leap of faith - although they are tried in the same Courts, Construction and Use offences aren't Criminal Offences in the UK, but Road Traffic Offences - that could be viewed in line with Article 7 of the Human Rights Act -

Article 7: No punishment without law
1. No one shall be held guilty of any criminal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a criminal offence under national law at the time when it was committed.


So, common sense should prevail and those of us with existing classics and kit cars will soon be able to gracefully waft past the latest Supercars on the motorway at a giddy 71mph and give their drivers a cheery wave as they eat our fumes
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 7th November 2021, 11:30
Lucky@LeMans Lucky@LeMans is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,978
Lucky@LeMans is on a distinguished road
Default

Also worth remembering that most of the high end classics, Aston Martins, Bentleys, Bugatti's etc etc are owned by the wealthy, influential and generally well connected types. Often government ministers and the like, they wouldn't want these measures employed retrospectively for the same reasons as us ! IVA might be tweaked in the future ( eg speed limiters ! ) but even those measures will likely be years away.
I thought this weeks COP26 might have pushed for legislation but it appears to be a gathering of senior politicians and world leaders having a chat amongst themselves and agreeing on nothing. Certainly no detail or immediate implementation.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 7th November 2021, 12:00
Mister Towed's Avatar
Mister Towed Mister Towed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,284
Mister Towed is on a distinguished road
Default

Quite out of character for me, but I'm with Greta Thunberg on this one...

https://youtu.be/HHvyWACMnnU
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 7th November 2021, 12:14
Lucky@LeMans Lucky@LeMans is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,978
Lucky@LeMans is on a distinguished road
Default

Blah, blah, blah, go home on your eco friendly horse & cart, Greta !

Last edited by Lucky@LeMans; 7th November 2021 at 14:53..
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 7th November 2021, 13:05
Mister Towed's Avatar
Mister Towed Mister Towed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,284
Mister Towed is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpaz View Post
As far as this 'Alice in Wonderland' Government is concerned...
Do you think the sequel should be called 'Boris through the looking glass'?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 7th November 2021, 14:59
Lucky@LeMans Lucky@LeMans is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,978
Lucky@LeMans is on a distinguished road
Default

Funny how the MP's who voted for him in the leadership election are the same ones with the daggers out now ! He is stuck between a rock and a hard place with all the c***p he has had to deal with in the last couple of years.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +0. The time now is 19:11.

copyright © madabout-kitcars.com 2000-2021
terms and conditions | privacy policy