Another Cordite Is Born ...

[Viatron]

Paul, keep moving forward your perseverence is an inspiration to all im sure!

With reference to the frame being 4cm further back on one side i think this picture may give you a hint as to why


Im glad you like the lip, Andy and i discussed this and it serves two purposes, one it actually will help in the laminating process as having the lip lower means that the part of the mould that will fill the cockpit perimeter will be stronger and will therefore stop the moulds distorting and in addition the extra meat in the cockpit area makes the shells more stable for transport and gives builders more "meat" to play with, much easier to trim back than to add material. Wait till you see how deep the dash area is!

With reference to the "voids" in your shell dig them out and use bridging filler to fill them rather than normal filler as it will put strength back into the area, P40 is the well known brand but any fibreglass based bridging filler will do from your local body shop supplies place, make sure you clean the voids out first so there is no dust in them though as otherwise it wont bond, i usually blow them out with an airline then clean with a rag soaked in celly thinners or acetone if you have any.
HTH
Mac

[Paul L]

Viatron - Hi Mac, this frame difference was at the front, causing a problem with the floor.
Although the fix you have done at the back covers the issues I had with the wheel arches not lining up.
As I said to Mr T I am not looking forward to checking for voids, but my shell really needs it.
All tips and advice are always welcome.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Bank Holiday Monday:
First job of the day was a trip to Machine Mart to pick up some welding wire.
Was reminded of a Phil & Barry's run out as I passed two classic racers in convoy.
Not sure what they were, but both looked something like this...



I then passed a Bugatti Veyron Convertible going the other way on the way home.
Must be something about the sunshine that brings everyone out.

Anyway, back to my build & I started by welding up the holes in the passenger side floor.
It was really windy outside which wasn't helping, but I did get it all sealed up.
( Not that you will be able to see much of a difference in this photo. )



I started working on the floor as I didn't want to start the angle grinder up before mid-day.
I then got the rear frame back out so I could work out where to put the rear seat belt mounting.
I am going to use my 3 point harness & want it to start behind the seat around here...



Initially I was going to run box section across the whole length of the cockpit.
Thankfully I remembered that the petrol tank needs space to be fitted.
So I decided to build a 90 degree frame that would extend from on top of an existing frame rail.



So it was time to set up a workshop picnic area to start cutting the box section to length...



This is what I ended up with, although the edges will be angled to match the frame when welded in...



Obviously I needed a matching set of box section for the passenger side too...



My wife took our girls to visit her sister, so I was able to set up another picnic inside the circus tent...
As by now it was just too windy to weld outside & the tent felt like it wanted to take off too.



If my bracket doesn't end up square, it will not be for want of trying...



Once the first two pieces were joined, I had to clamp everything together to get the 3rd piece in position...



Once the first joint was welded I could remove everything else & finish off all the sides...



Then it was time to clamp everything up for the final time...



With the seat belt mounting plate in the middle of the box section, I could weld on both sides.
But, unfortunately, my mate's welder decided to cut out at this point as it got too hot.

So I returned inside to do some hoovering (I kid you not) as I can't spend all day playing with my car!

Eventually I got back out & managed to finish one section completely...



I had been matching the other side section by section, so that is nearly done too.
( The welder packed up again as it was actually pretty hot inside the tent despite the wind outside. )



I will be the first to admit that my solution may have a hint of over engineering about it.
But I am pretty happy that this be good and solid when finally welded to the frame.

It only took me 45 minutes to back up this evening, so I'm getting quicker.

The frame is now tucked away & under a cover given the weather forecast of rain...



I then had to spend some time pruning in the garden before the family returned.
Then my girls helped me take down the circus tent, which they really love.
Unlike my wife who has now insisted that this is never put up on the front drive.

Anyway, another good day's work, still a bit to do on these brackets, but getting there.

Quick Quiz - Just for fun:
What is the difference between this photo of my bracket which has cooled down...



And this photo of my bracket that was still very hot to the touch after welding...



Obviously the answer is there is no difference, which is why I picked it up with my bare hands!!

I was actually using the angle grinder outside the tent to dress the welds.
As I figured sparks inside the tent was not such a good idea.
So I kept changing gloves from my welding ones to my normal working ones.
Either way, my mind was clearly not thinking straight when I grabbed it.

Until next time, take care, Paul.

[Paul L]

More Welding:
Despite the rubbish weather I wanted to finish off the welding on my seat belt mounting brackets.
I can't weld the brackets onto the frame itself until the weather improves, as I need a big area to play in.
But for this job I just needed a patch of dry ground & I was away…



Thankfully I had almost finished on Monday evening when the welder cut out, so it didn't take me long...



Although I still have to dress these new welds as it was too late to start angle grinding.
Then I used the cardboard underneath to trace round & cut out the shapes of these brackets…



I will then offer up these templates to the rear frame work to mark the angles where the brackets will join.
Then I can simply mark & cut the ends of the brackets so that they will form neat joints to be welded in.

Frame to Chassis Holes:
One thing I forgot to do before I removed the rear frame from the chassis was mark up the seat belt holes.
These sit either side of the hand brake panel, and I'd previously made cardboard templates to locate them.
Unfortunately, I now can't mark/drill these holes in the frame without dragging it back through the house.
The knock on effect is that I can't mark up & drill the corresponding matching holes in the floor pans either.

As previously mentioned, I will be building a Scooby Doo type sandwich of parts:
- Chassis
- Frame
- Floor
- Hand brake panel

So I will add that to the list of jobs I need to do when I attempt to "dry fit" all of the above parts together.
This test fitting will determine if the idea of welding some of these items together will work in practise.

I also need to drill 4 extra holes in the internal frame so that it can be bolted to the chassis front & back.
That way the seat belt holes will predominately be for the eyelets, rather than keeping the frame in place.

I know DonnySoutherner simply drilled straight through the Spitfire chassis & bolted his frame in that way.
I plan to do the same thing, but will cut out some square sections of the thick sheet steel my mate gave me.
If these squares cover the width of the chassis rail underneath, I hope this will spread the load sufficiently.

Which leads me to my final thought of the day…

Frame to Chassis Bolts:
I can measure the length of the bolts required to go through the frame and chassis.
But does anyone have a suggestion for the minimum size/type of bolt I should use?
Instinctively, I would have thought at least M10 size, but I'll happily order whatever size I need.

Next Steps...
I might take advantage of the rain to have another sort out of the pile of boxes in the Summerhouse.
As I can’t find one of the seat belt mounting plates that I need to fit to the side of the frame work.

I bought 4 plates (2 big ones & 2 smaller ones) and used one of each to work out possible location points.
Thankfully I found the 2nd big plate which was needed to the brackets I was welding up at the weekend.
But the 2nd smaller plate had gone AWOL & welding that into place will be the next big job on the rear frame.

Until next time, take care, Paul.

PS
With a bit of luck I will be able to reply to some of the other build threads this week.

[Viatron]

Paul,
M10 will be alright but i would worry more about the grade of bolt, try and get eitther 8.8 or 10.9's. if you are drilling right through the chassis box consider sleeving the hole with some tube as bolting straight through box usually ends up with the box deforming and the bolts working loose over time.
Mac

[Paul L]

Viatron - Thanks for the bolt recommendations Mac, I'll order some, along with a few other bits I need.
I have seen the "tube inside the chassis" modification done on other car builds so I know what you mean.
But can I just check whether my "steel square" idea would do a similar job (as it would be much easier for me).

This is a photo of DonnySoutherner's frame bolted into position…



Obviously the "angle iron" inner section of the frame work would spread the load across the top of the chassis.
And here is another one of my dodgy PowerPoint sketches to show my plan for underneath the chassis…



The steel is approx. 2 mm thick and I would cut it to cover the full width of the chassis underneath.
I figured this approach would spread the load evenly through the vertical sides of the chassis.
Whereas, just using a nut & washer would clearly load the centre of the horizontal face of the chassis.

However, I am happy to go with your superior knowledge & add you to the list of people who I owe a beer!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Seat Belt Mounting Brackets:
I had a very quick session with the angle grinder after I got home from work to tidy up my welding...



Thankfully, the day's wet weather meant the washing line was free to become part of my alfresco spray booth.



But a light dusting of "weldable" etch primer later and everything looks a lot better…



Two other things occurred to me in relation to these brackets:
- I need a length of box section running "front to back" to resist the pull of the belts under braking.
- I really need to double check I can get the petrol tank in before I weld everything in place!

That's all for now, cheers, Paul.

[Viatron]

Paul the advantage of a crush tube is that you caan just drill the right sized hole for the tube to go into, i guess a piece of box might be ok but i would fancy trying to cut an accurate square hole in my chassis!. My plan is to drill a hole straight through from top to bottom (already done) to the size of bolt then re drill the top hole to the size of the tube, that way i can just drop the tube in from the top, suitably trimmed so its fractionally below the level of the top of the chassis. Once you then drop the bolt in and tighten it up it will pull the top in fractionally to the level of the top of the crush tube but then stop. you could weld the tube in at the top but i dont think it will be necessary. hope that makes sense as now i re read it it seems a bit of a ramble!!!!

[Paul L]

Cheers Mac, that makes sense, but I probably wasn't very clear myself.

The "steel square" is effectively an extra "chassis shaped" washer if that makes sense.

So no cutting & welding to the chassis at all, just a hole drilled straight through for the bolt.

Is that a better explanation?

Cheers, Paul.

[Viatron]

Yep but the hole in the top is bigger than the one in the bottom to allow the crush tube to drop in

[Paul L]

OK, we are definitely talking at crossed purposes now.

I understand your point about the crush tube & how it gets fitted.

I was trying to clear up my sketch above, which should have shown the 'green' square sitting on top of the 'purple' chassis.

It was not my intention to cut a square out of the chassis and weld the green square into position.

I just thought the steel square would act as an over sized "washer" to spread the load and avoid any crushing.

Is that any clearer?

Cheers, Paul.

[Viatron]

Sorry yes clear now, having a spreader blate on the bottom certainly wont do any harm at all, we got there in the end!

[Paul L]

Cheers Mac.

Although it would help if I knew/used technical terms like "spreader plate" rather than "green square".

[Viatron]

:-)

[Paul L]

Quick Question...
I'll do a proper report later on, but I have hit a problem that I want to check with you all.

I did test fit by seat belt mounting brackets to see if I could fit the petrol tank.

The brackets will "tuck in" a bit when the ends are cut at angles to match the frame...



But even if I repositioned them a lot closer, there is no way the tank will fit.



So I think I will need to mount the tank before I weld the brackets in...



Obviously this means the petrol tank can not be removed without major surgery.

Is this going to be a problem?

Cheers, Paul.

PS
I've got other stuff to be getting on with, so I'll be back later.

[Paul L]

I'll come back to the petrol tank issue above in a minute.
In the mean time here is how my day went...

Saturday:
I'd ordered some Eye Bolts for the 3 point racing harness I am going to fit...



I knew they were the right size for the backing plates that I'd bought.
But when they arrived it dawned on me I wasn't sure if they would fit the existing Spitfire "holes".
So first job of the day was to test they were a matching thread & they were...



The second job of the day was trying to find the missing seat belt plate.
So half of the contents of the Summerhouse ended up in the garden...



But the good news was I found the plate and could move on to my next "search".
I knew I had a set of three funnels put to one side as they would come in handy.
Despite going through all the remaining boxes in the Summerhouse I could not find them.
I then tried the utility room & the storage area in the loft where other bits live, but nothing.
Then I got the sinking feeling that there were in the shed.
Sure enough, after pulling yet more stuff out I found them & could now empty the petrol tank.

I used an old tight as a filter (with my wife's blessing as they had a ladder in them)...



This was then shoved in one of the new jerry cans that I'd bought recently.
( I'll use the 2nd one to get fresh petrol when I try to re-start the engine. )



The big funnel didn't work very well, so I switched to a medium one.
But the tights were doing their job & I needed to move them around often...



I've already posted the photos of me trying to fit the tank with the seat belt brackets in place.
It has now occurred to me that having metal in front of the tank isn't really an issue.
The traditional Sammio / Ribble "getting started" guide expected the rear cockpit to be sealed.
So even if you hadn't got any metal in the way, the petrol tank is effectively boxed in anyway.

Therefore I feel happier that my approach will work for this build.
I am also planning to have some access to the fuel lines from the "boot".
I will also have an access panel to get at the fuel gauge sensor if required too.

More on the petrol tank later, as it was time to work out where the "side" seat belt plates would go.
There was a lot of beard scratching going on to come up with something that I could make work.
In the end I've opted for another of my over engineered solutions that will look like this...



I have to take a notch out of the box section where it meets another frame rail at an angle...



The brackets will go in behind the door cut out section of the frame...



I will add one last piece of box section to join the bracket to the frame in another stop too.
But for now, I have cleaned up both the box section, plate, & frame work ready for welding.

Here are the brackets for both the driver and passenger side...



Note two things:
- I've recycled the box section I cut off the frame last week
- The brackets are different sizes as the door cut outs are not in the same place.

As part of my test fitting, I tried the 3 point harness for size.
I clamped up the rear bracket as best I could until I cut the ends to match the frame...



This allowed the shoulder straps to sit nicely over the seat...



I then climbed on board to see if I could "buckle up"...



Even though the adjuster brackets are at my shoulder they actually seem fine.
I guess the restrictions of a racing harness is going to take some getting use to anyway.

The final job of the day was to prepare the petrol tank for painting.
I've left if out in the sun all day to get rid of any remaining petrol vapours.

This was before...



This was during the sanding down stage...



And then it was time to apply a coat of Kurust...



Then it was time to tidy up and put everything away for the night.
I have done all the grinding I need to do on the side belt brackets.
So hopefully I can get welding first thing in the morning as it isn't to noisy.

Until then, take care, Paul.

[AndyP85]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Quick Question...
I'll do a proper report later on, but I have hit a problem that I want to check with you all.

I did test fit by seat belt mounting brackets to see if I could fit the petrol tank.

The brackets will "tuck in" a bit when the ends are cut at angles to match the frame...



But even if I repositioned them a lot closer, there is no way the tank will fit.



So I think I will need to mount the tank before I weld the brackets in...



Obviously this means the petrol tank can not be removed without major surgery.

Is this going to be a problem?

Cheers, Paul.

PS
I've got other stuff to be getting on with, so I'll be back later.

I'm quite proud to say that the new (RIBBLE) frame for the Navigator and Pilot have been designed around the fuel tank making it easier to install/uninstall!

[AndyP57]

Actually lad, the tank access is the same as the previous frames but what Paul is doing is to fabricate a strong point for a three point harness. I'm currently looking at ways to do just that on the new frame and I hope Paul doesn't mind if I say I'm watching progress on his mounts with interest to learn the best ways to standardise on them. I was warned at Stoneleigh about having the centre mount too low so as to prevent submarining so I may have the hard points high on that bulkhead , centred on the lowered floor span.

[Nike55]

Nice progress Paul L. Inspiring us (me) that haven't (hasn't) a clue!

Don't get too hung up on technical terms, the engineers out there can figure out what you mean - the rest of us (me) just think a widget is a gewgaw, unless its a thingymabob.

I'm on the St Albans side of Watford, not too far from you - we share the same weather..but looking forward to seeing your progression

[Mister Towed]

Andy P's got a point about the seat belt mounts being a bit low - if you mount them that low they might not restrain you properly. Additionally, if you've got the adjusters on top of your shoulders they're likely to become very uncomfortable and difficult to adjust. I'd think about raising them up as high as I could get them myself.

All part of the fun of Sammio ownership!

[AndyP57]

Thinking out loud. Hows about a 'bolt in' structure going across the bulkhead carrying both left and right seat belt mounts. That way it can be as beefy as you like and should the time come to replace the tank you could dismount the lot. In practice though, if you have given the tank a good looking over and protected it, the most likely servicing would be just the sender or at a pinch the bottom seal which would be a simple access job anyway. I know sods law applies but how many fuel tanks have you had to change on any other car?

[Paul L]

Thanks chaps.

I'll do some proper replies later on, as it is a big hectic here at the moment.

Mind you, I've already got the first coat of paint on the bottom half of the petrol tank, so it is a good kind of hectic.

I should be able to move the rear panel brackets up a bit higher & I'll have a look at that next.

But first I need to do the supermarket run, or there will be no car building for me today!

Cheers, Paul.