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Go Back   Madabout Kitcars Forum > Mad Build Area > Sammio Builds and discussions

Sammio Builds and discussions Sammio bodied car builds and specials

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  #1  
Old 6th November 2014, 16:15
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Default 2014 - DVLA / V5C Changes

I thought I'd start a new thread that was not linked to the old way of doing things.

The following is what I believe is now required for a simple Sammio/Ribble/Miglia "re-body".

Although part of the problem is that a "re-body" does not appear to be part of current DVLA terminology.

Anyway, this is the best I can offer in terms of advice and feel free to update it if required.

Sorry it is a bit long (and long winded ), but I hope it will help.

Cheers, Paul.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The starting point for making chances to your V5C is described here:

https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-de...w-to-tell-dvla

Ignore the address in this website, as I was told you should address all your correspondence to:

Kits and Rebuilds D4
DVLA
Swansea
SA99 1ZZ


They work as a team, allocating cases between themselves and would prefer not to provide a named individual as a contact.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In my case, I wanted to change the "Model" name from Spitfire 1500, but there is no place to do this in Section 7 of the V5C.

In the link above, this is the official guide line.

If the change isn’t listed in the registration certificate
Fill in section 4 of the certificate and send DVLA evidence and a letter explaining the change.


So I simply circled the old model name on the V5C and wrote the new model name above it.

Update:
It is now clear that the Model name on the V5C will remain blank and can not be used.
See Post #10 below for more details.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Initially, I would suggest you keep the evidence and explanations you send to the DVLA very brief.

The DVLA should then send you all the relevant forms to fill in and request any specific details they require.

However, I'd suggest that some of the following words / phrases may be worth including in your initial letter:

The body shell of vehicle registration number "ABC 123", Make Triumph, Model Spitfire/Herald, has been replaced.

The replacement body shell requires the details on the V5C to be changed regarding Make & Model.

I want to keep the original registration number and believe I am entitled to do this.

Because the vehicle has kept all of the following original, unmodified, major components:
- Chassis
- Suspension (front & back)
- Axles (both)
- Transmission
- Steering assembly
- Engine

Only the body shell has been changed and this does not form part of the DVLA's vehicle identity points system.

The vehicle conversion work has been completed to the point where the existing V5C details are no longer appropriate.

I would like the new name to be "????". *

I would like to keep my vehicle SORN on the existing number plate, but with a revised V5C.

The SORN declaration is valid as the vehicle is neither used, nor stored on the road at present.

The vehicle will be given insurance, an MOT & tax before it returns to on the road use.


Update:
* See Post #10 below about whether you need to keep Triumph in the new name.


Note:
There is a complete absence of the word "kit" in all of the details shown above.
It is important to remember we are not building a kit as far as the DVLA understands that term.
( A DVLA kit car would be something more comprehensive like a Westfield or Ultima. )

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"DVLA Evidence"
It seems that this can vary from case to case, but I was asked to include "Before" and "After" photographs of the car .

The DVLA specifically asked that the photos should be taken in such a way that the original number plate was visible.

Obviously, I didn't know this was a requirement when I started my build, so this was the best I could do for the "Before".



Personally, I think a key photo to include is one of your Triumph rolling chassis "During" the body shell replacement.



As this covers your claim to keep the original registration number, which is linked to the "8 Point Rule", explained here:

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registrat...tered-vehicles

I then included a photo of my replacement body shell showing the same rolling chassis underneath.



Plus one with the rear number plate fitted.



In addition to the photos, you should be able to provide invoices for the replacement body shell and an explanation of where unused donor parts went (e.g. Ebay).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Forms:
I'm probably not the best example, as I went around in circles for a bit, but these are all the forms I filled in:
- V5C
- V894 Reply Slip (Note: Tick options as Kit Conversion = No, Re-built = Yes.)
- V627/1 Built up vehicle report
- SORN using new Model name
- Declaration that vehicle conversion work had been completed.

The key word seems to be "conversion", which is defined as...

The process of changing from one form to another.

So in my case, I have finished converting my old Spitfire into a new form (body shell), hence the new Model name.

Note:
There was quite a bit of confusion regarding the timing of finishing the conversion vs. finishing the whole build.
Just remember the car could be made road legal without a final paint job, and thus remain unfinished in one sense.
Either way, I certainly do not own a Triumph Spitfire any more and therefore changing the V5C is the right thing to do.

Update:
With hindsight, I would not send any forms to the DVLA when initially contacting them.
Instead I would just send the letter, my old V5C and some photos.
This should be enough for the DVLA to confirm which forms they want completed.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Body Shell Inspections:
Whilst these used to be a key part / milestone of earlier Sammio builds, they are now at the DVLA's discretion.

So in my case, and a few other recent Spyder builds, there was no requirement to have the new body shell inspected.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

IVA
This is still not required for a "simple" Sammio/Ribble/Miglia build.

The 8 point rule is the key to all of this, if you use all the original Spitfire / Herald parts you will have no problems.

It is only if you start changing other major components at the same time as the body shell that you may struggle.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Good Luck!

Last edited by Paul L; 3rd February 2015 at 08:26.. Reason: Updated
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  #2  
Old 6th November 2014, 18:01
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Well put Paul, but the most important part is the "ORIGINAL UNMOLESTED CHASSIS"
You will only retain the registration if the "ORIGINAL UNMOLESTED CHASSIS", scoring 5 points, and 2 major components which will score at least 3 points.
This makes a total of at least 8 points, meaning more than 50% of the original car/components where used.

VOSA say a car is made up of 5 major components each have a points value.
Chassis = 5,
Axles = 2,
Suspension = 2,
Steering = 2,
Transmission = 2,
Engine = 1,

Total = 14.

You must score at least 8 points (5 of which must be the chassis), or use over half of the original car to retain the registration.

When a Sammio is built we actually score the full 14 points.
The only problem is the rear out riggers on the Herald and the bonnet mounts on the Spitfire. When these are "removed" it could be classed as a modified chassis

Note, VOSA do not include the body work as a component and this is why no IVA is required.

When dealing with DVLA another golden rule is "if they don't ask don't tell them", and of course "kept it simple".
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  #3  
Old 6th November 2014, 18:04
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Forgot to say when applying for the registration change, is a good idea to include a photo of the chassis vin tag and the engine number.
They seem to like that
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  #4  
Old 6th November 2014, 18:05
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I molested my chassis with a sand blaster, welder, waxoyl and lashings of smoothrite. Didn't stop me getting through the rebody inspection though.
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  #5  
Old 7th November 2014, 10:45
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Chassis Rules:
Before I applied for my V5C changes I had already written to the DVLA to ask about what could be done to the chassis.

I sent them this print out from Rimmer Bros. which I had "coloured in" to highlight, in blue, what I thought the chassis was.



I used this diagram to justify cutting off the original Spitfire bumper brackets as this is allowed under the DVLA rules.
( As brackets are not considered to be part of the chassis's structural integrity. )

But in my case the DVLA did want me to show what work I had done to the chassis and rust repairs are allowed.
( I did mention that by asking lots of questions, I generated a lot more work than was really necessary. )









So provided you do not cut bits of the chassis off, or weld anything to the chassis, you can declare it as original and unmodified.

Please Note:
The internal framework for the Sammio, Ribble & Miglia range was designed to bolt on to comply with the DVLA chassis rules.
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  #6  
Old 7th November 2014, 12:41
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This thread reminded me about something i'd ready a while back that i know a few of you will find interesting.

Here's a link to response the that the Association of Car Enthusiasts got when they requested clarification from the DVLA about what is and isn't caught up in chassis modification.

http://www.the-ace.org.uk/chassis-an...-modification/

It's a very interesting read and for me it was especially good to see formally and in writing that the rear outriggers don't count as chassis as they are not part of the "full original length of the longitudinal members" as are not part of the longitudinal member, but rather they are additional body mounting brackets that are added on for the Herald/Vitesse and aren't there for the Spitfire.

Ref:

Quote:
Q) We know that cutting or shortening a chassis is classed as modification but is this relative to the vehicle wheelbase i.e. the chassis must remain uncut between the 2 axles but anything forward of front or aft of rear suspension mounts can be removed?

A) Chassis includes the full original length of the longitudinal members including to the front of the front axle and to the rear of the rear axle.
and:


Quote:
Q) Is it acceptable to remove bodymounts, which contribute no strength to the chassis when changing a body to a different style /make?

A) Yes, providing they are additional to and are not an integral part of the chassis structure.

I know that this doesn't help Paul's Spitfire front end mods, but in that case this bit may be of interest:


Quote:
In that letter stated that (in my words - based from memory) adding minor supporting brackets are acceptable changes that don't class as chassis modifications.

Some of the clarifications around ' boxing' of chassis members may also be of interest to a few builders!
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Old 7th November 2014, 12:44
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actually.... after re-reading those guidance responses and looking again what what is altered on the Spitfire bonnet hinge mod, i think you are covered by their guidance and what is being done is officially fine ?!?!
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  #8  
Old 7th November 2014, 13:29
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Dave - Thanks for the link.

I should have remembered about "ACE" as they are referred to a lot on the "Rods 'n' Sods" forum.

Note: Kapri from that forum worked with Gary on the original Sammio Spyder to ensure it was DVLA friendly.

I'm going to copy one of your points above onto my own build thread, rather than pick up on it here.

Cheers, Paul.
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Old 21st November 2014, 07:53
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Copying in here for completeness...


My application to change the V5 contained 3 things:

- V627/1 Built up vehicle report - content as pilfered from the Ribble version and reworded slightly to suit Miglia stating that it was a body conversion and that all that i wanted was to change the name on the V5 from Triumph Vitesse to Triumph Miglia.
- V5C - I noted on here that the colour was changing from Green to Red, and that the body type was changing from Saloon to Sports
- Miglia Receipt

That was sent off.

Waited 3 weeks.

Got a letter from DVLA asking me to provide a photo of the car - BUT - this was in relation to changing the "body type" part of the V5.

So i sent off a printed photo of the car in the garage, but as the number plate wasn't showing (this wasn't specifically asked for, but i know others have been asked to include it) i also included printed photos of the VIN Plate and Engine number, and i stated that i had included those as when i did my Sammio those were inspected.

Waited 2 1/2 weeks.

New V5 arrived stating:
Triumph Miglia
Sports
Red
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  #10  
Old 24th January 2015, 15:57
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DVLA Thread
Just to follow up on Dave's experience...

I have got my revised V5C and the Model line is now left blank & the new name is in the Make line.



I believe the maximum number of characters you can use in the Make line is 20.

So if you keep "Triumph" that leaves you with 12 characters to play with, as 1 is needed for the space after Triumph.

At this point, I couldn't tell you if you actually have to keep Triumph in the new name.

IanA's Tribute build "next door" has a Make called "Z300S BARCHETTA" on his V5C, with no mention of BMW donor.

But to be honest I am so happy to have my paperwork in order, that I don't really care.

So my top tip is to keep it simple and follow Dave's approach rather than my own.

Good luck, Paul.

PS
After I prepared this update, I spotted these "Special Notes" on Page 1 of my new V5C.



Obviously this is an official confirmation that the car started out as something else (i.e. a Spitfire).

But I think it hints at how the DVLA now treat a "re-body" as a "rebuild".
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Old 24th January 2015, 17:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
But I think it hints at how the DVLA now treat a "re-body" as a "rebuild".
Which is very interesting because my understanding of 'Rebuilt' in DVLA speak means having a replacement (not new) CHASSIS which also means an IVA...

Which is one reason why I am 'restoring' my Berlinetta rather then 'rebuilding' it.
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Old 24th January 2015, 18:49
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Ed - I really don't know what rules I was judged against.

But I've just gone back to check the Gov.UK rules on Rebuilds.

Keep a vehicle’s original registration number

A rebuilt vehicle can keep its original registration number if you can prove you’ve used:
- the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell (car or light van)
- a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original (car or light van)

You must also have 2 other major components from the original vehicle from the following lists.

For cars or light vans:
- suspension (front and back)
- steering assembly
- axles (both)
- transmission
- engine


The key to the Sammio, Ribble & Miglia builds is keeping an unmodified chassis to ensure no IVA requirement.

You can still do some things to the chassis and keep within the DVLA definition of "unmodified".
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Old 25th January 2015, 07:39
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Very interesting stuff Paul.

And congratulations on creating a new " make"

Triumph Swordfish!!

Totally unique, and the only one in the world I would guess.

That should give plod a headache when they run your number plate through the PNC!
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Old 16th March 2015, 08:17
Mick O'Malley Mick O'Malley is offline
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Lightbulb V627/1 To Swansea Today

Today I'm posting my paperwork to DVLA to have my V5 amended for the A352 conversion. I'll send it to the address Paul L helpfully supplied above and include the specifically worded invoice from Chris. I scanned it all and the pictures are below.

I'll update when I hear anything.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg V627 1.jpg (95.8 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg V627 2.jpg (95.5 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg Invoice.jpg (76.8 KB, 64 views)
File Type: jpg V5.jpg (96.7 KB, 68 views)
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Old 16th March 2015, 19:09
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Mick, just down the road in Gloucester.
Next time your in Swindon why not pop-in for a chat and a cuppa
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Old 17th March 2015, 16:00
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Mick - you've listed your VED class as PLG instead of historic? Was the Spitfire not roadworthy when you started?

BTW - I'm in GL3 with a storage unit in GL7
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Old 17th March 2015, 19:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scimjim View Post
Mick - you've listed your VED class as PLG instead of historic? Was the Spitfire not roadworthy when you started?
That's common practise, you can only change the taxation class when applying for tax, says so in the V5c
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Old 17th March 2015, 19:21
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Yes, I had to do it with my Scimitar - just thought the spitfire would have already been done and on the road (given the choice)
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Old 18th March 2015, 05:47
Mick O'Malley Mick O'Malley is offline
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Question V5

Quote:
Originally Posted by scimjim
Mick - you've listed your VED class as PLG instead of historic? Was the Spitfire not roadworthy when you started?

BTW - I'm in GL3 with a storage unit in GL7
Hi Scimjim

I merely copied what was on the V5. It was a Spitfire until 1979, then off the road until 1994 when it was (very briefly) a Moss Midge, then off the road until now.

The V5 has been back to Swansea for changes in 1996 (address) and 2015 (engine no.) but no 'historic' change has appeared.

I'm in Tredworth with one of my sons in Cirencester, he works in 'Somewhere Else' deli bar, well worth a visit!
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Old 11th April 2015, 08:01
Mick O'Malley Mick O'Malley is offline
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Post Update

Yesterday I received 'DVLA5' below. I imagine Easter was to blame for the nine day transit time!

'DVLA3 & DVLA4' are what I'm enclosing.

Regards, Mick
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