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Go Back   Madabout Kitcars Forum > Mad Build Area > Dino 246 Builds and Discussion

Dino 246 Builds and Discussion Da da da da daaa daa da da, ohoho Dino

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  #121  
Old 22nd April 2019, 09:11
Fibreglass Fibreglass is offline
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Default Dino 246

Thanks Ian, it was nice to meet you again.
All the Dino moulds and jigs are now safely over in France.
Thanks
Mark
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  #122  
Old 22nd April 2019, 10:48
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Thumbs up chassis

Hi All

Sun out, wife out, tinkering time!
I've been out with the measuring stick again. I've took a point from the centre of the wheel arch on the cascu 246 and used some redundant gallows brackets after checking they were square. I've used my level to ensure they where upright and used packers were needed. I've measured across both the front and rear of the 246 shell. I've done the same with the deon shell but only at the front as I can't get to the back just yet without moving a gearbox,spare engine, engine crane and tig welder!!
Very surprised here as the are identical, both are 64 3/4 inches. If the back is the same then I think I'll backward engineer the deon suspension set.

ian
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  #123  
Old 22nd April 2019, 10:50
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Default chassis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibreglass View Post
Thanks Ian, it was nice to meet you again.
All the Dino moulds and jigs are now safely over in France.
Thanks
Mark
Hi Mark

Yes nice to catch up. Thanks for everything. Wish you well.

ian
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  #124  
Old 22nd April 2019, 13:21
Fibreglass Fibreglass is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecarbuilder246 View Post
Hi All


Very surprised here as the are identical, both are 64 3/4 inches. If the back is the same then I think I'll backward engineer the deon suspension set.

ian
They should be the same Ian, as the 206 and 246 are the same width, it is one of the few measurements which are the same. I should think the rear will be the same as well, although it is interesting as the track is supposedly 2" wider both front and rear on the 206. This could be due to the wheel offset as the 246 tyres are wider. I wouldn't have thought the wishbones are different as the 246 has the same basic setup as the 308, unless the chassis is quite different. I have never had anything to do with the 206 other than the engines. It is amazing how different the 206 and 246 are as most people just see a Dino.
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  #125  
Old 24th April 2019, 02:50
rossnzwpi rossnzwpi is offline
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Hi, I just measured the front 246 clip I have from peak of the wheel arch across to the opposite peak - it was 1640mm (approx 64.6") - as near as dammit to your measurement.
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  #126  
Old 27th April 2019, 10:02
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Default chassis

Hi all

After your measurement Ross and cascu's saying the 206 and 246 were the same curiosity got the better of me. I just had to drag the stuff out of the way and measure the deon at the rear. The 246 cascu shell came out at 64 1/4 inch and the deon is exactly the same-who would have thought!!!
So to the chassis. I want to upgrade the uprights and braking but I can used the original deon set up points as a start.

ian
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  #127  
Old 27th April 2019, 22:41
rossnzwpi rossnzwpi is offline
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Default redesign of chassis and suspension

It is quite a task to redesign suspension - I'm envious of your skills! I wouldn't trust myself to get suspension right so I'd probably start with a Mazda MX5 (Miata for our American friends). Its front could fit perfectly and its rear would probably need a new top arm, otherwise it would be a good fit. My next step would be to post that plan on the Locost suspension page and get feedback. There are lots of experts there who enjoy offering advice. OZDino on this site had some good basic techniques to use too.

As to Fibreglass's point that the tracks of 206 (and maybe therefore Deon) and 246 are 'a couple of inches wider' - it is true that the 206 was originally listed in a couple of places as 1400 at the rear and the 246 was 1430 at the rear. Tyre width makes no difference to track because track is measured from wheel centre to wheel centre. Wheel offset makes a difference to track.

an early 206 blueprint for chassis
s-l1600.jpg
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  #128  
Old 27th April 2019, 22:43
molleur molleur is offline
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Default

I think the MX-5 front would be good. The rear may require some stiffer springs though.
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  #129  
Old 28th April 2019, 01:09
rossnzwpi rossnzwpi is offline
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If I did use an MX5 rear suspension setup then, yes the extra weight in the rear would definitely be an issue. Stiffer springs would be the first step and I wonder if geometry would need to be tweaked too?
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  #130  
Old 28th April 2019, 02:45
molleur molleur is offline
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Springs & shocks and see where it goes. Really can't answer better than that.
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  #131  
Old 28th April 2019, 10:04
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Hi all

As the main dino 246 shell is near on identical I intend to use my deon chassis as a starting point. I'm going to copy the front suspension pick up points from the deon as I'm going to be using billet hubs based around the fiat 124 uprights used in early JHC cars and I believe lada on later deon cars.
All the extra wheelbase difference seems to be in the area behind the back edge of the door and the rear wheels. I'm going to use the deon rear suspension points again and use a billet hub at the rear. I don't think lengthening the wheel base by 80 mm with effect the cars handling in any way. I may post my ideas on the locost suspension forum, as I think this might be a good idea.Do I just type locost suspension?

ian
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  #132  
Old 29th April 2019, 06:32
rossnzwpi rossnzwpi is offline
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Default locos forum - UK & USA

Hi, these forae (is that the plural??) are based around versions of the Lotus 7 but plenty of people diverge and talk about mid engined self-made and designed cars. Words like "middy" or "BEC" (bike engined cars) are useful searches on the sites.

here's one:
https://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/vie...php?tid=204296

spectre-rolling-chassis-003.jpg

and the mid engine section:
https://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/26/

one contributor sells a book on the subject:
http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilins...-21330662.html

and the USA Locos site mid engine section:
https://www.locostusa.com/forums/vie...255550dc21cfd9
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  #133  
Old 30th April 2019, 10:56
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Default chassis

Hi all

while searching my computer I've found this-a picture of my deon chassis built up to a rolling chassis.. Basically I'm going to copy design this but increase the size of the floor pan chassis rails from 40mm x 20mm to 80mm x 40mm and remove the 1mm tin to make the cills lower.I'm going to remove the centre backbone 25mm x 25mm tube and 1mm tin and replace with 2 more 80mm x 40mm rails. The engine baulk head is too far back on the deon so I'll move this forward and also use this area to increase the wheel base. Sort of like a dino/deon mash up!!

ian
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  #134  
Old 30th April 2019, 14:42
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Default chassis

Hi all

I'm not sure about the wind screen. I have both 246 chrome front and rear screen trims, the rear does seem to fit the 206 as well but the front one doesn't fit the 206-it's wider. And I know several jhc and deon builders suffered cracked screens when fitting. One guy in particular who broke 2 remarked to me that the window fitter said the screen seem oversize.
The screen surround is stored at my mums so I'll dig it out and try on cascus 246 and see how it fits. May account for the difference in the door skin.
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  #135  
Old 3rd May 2019, 11:08
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Default chassis

Hi all.

I think you guys may be right in all the extra wheel base length is in the engine bay. I know the original 206 mould was altered to fit the lotus europa chassis and it would appear to me the whole rear of the car was shortened by approx 85mm. I've used a laser and checked the deon wheel base 2255mm (dino 246 2340mm). Some photos of wheel base measurements attached.
I've measure every part of the deon chassis I have and created a wooden mock up which I've had under the cascu shell. Front wheel position and floor pan at the front of the 246 is spot on but it seems deon/jhc cut the chassis rails down and moved the engine cradle forward.
I've cut my wooden mock up in half and I'm going to add in 85 mm and try the cascu shell on again.

ian
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  #136  
Old 16th May 2019, 13:03
thecarbuilder246 thecarbuilder246 is offline
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Smile chassis

Hi all

After a few weeks of proper work I've had a day off on the dino. Thought I'd look in to where the 85mm needs to go. While I was at cascu's workshop I put my tape measure over various parts of his 246 jig.Comparing them to the deon chassis is another eye opener.
The center floor pan is the same width on both. The outer chassis rails are longer on the cascu 246 but the 246 bulkhead starts further in and at approx 20 degree angle leaning back. The top of the bulkhead on both is the same!
As both the 206 and 246 engine lids are the same I've taken the measure in relation to the wheel arch from that point. The rear chassis rails on the deon are in the right place as regards the boot lid hinge points so this must stay the same resulting in the engine needing moving backwards 85mm in the engine bay. It's going to be tight and I may have to redesign the rear bottom wishbones. Top wishbones are ok as is top mount for coil over. Slowly getting there!
On another point the deon's rear wheel is not central to the wheel arch. It's approx 13mm closer to the front of the arch
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  #137  
Old 19th May 2019, 02:42
rossnzwpi rossnzwpi is offline
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Default 246 Chassis drawing

Hi Ian, good progress on your build! Here's a picture of a 246 Chassis blueprint for reference. Interesting that your rear wheel is not centred in the wheel arch - maybe it is something Deon did to accomodate the Ford V6?? Other pictures of Deon wheel arches I've seen seem to have it pushed in the other direction.
Dino_246_Chassis_blueprint_liveauctioneers.jpg
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  #138  
Old 19th May 2019, 09:04
Fibreglass Fibreglass is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossnzwpi View Post
Hi Ian, good progress on your build! Here's a picture of a 246 Chassis blueprint for reference. Interesting that your rear wheel is not centred in the wheel arch - maybe it is something Deon did to accomodate the Ford V6?? Other pictures of Deon wheel arches I've seen seem to have it pushed in the other direction.
Attachment 6109
Ross, that is not actually correct, I am wondering if that is an early blueprint or incomplete but it is not the chassis that was used on the original cars.
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  #139  
Old 19th May 2019, 09:06
Fibreglass Fibreglass is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossnzwpi View Post
Hi Ian, good progress on your build! Here's a picture of a 246 Chassis blueprint for reference. Interesting that your rear wheel is not centred in the wheel arch - maybe it is something Deon did to accomodate the Ford V6?? Other pictures of Deon wheel arches I've seen seem to have it pushed in the other direction.
Attachment 6109
Actually just noticed the date, it was probably a prototype developed from the 206.
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  #140  
Old 21st May 2019, 08:12
rossnzwpi rossnzwpi is offline
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Hey Mark, what are the differences that the production 246 chassis has from this march '69 blueprint I found on the net?
Ross
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